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playa2
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7/17/2003  4:30 PM
I luv when new voices speak truth, funny thing happenS the clones try and divert evErything to me instead of dealing with what the man says . AND FOR THAT I LAUGHT AT YA'LL. ROFL
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
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Pike
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7/17/2003  4:40 PM
Posted by ARES:

i get along with every body,

... let's not get carried away.
technomaster
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7/17/2003  8:12 PM
Well, if you want to be pessimistic, yeah, I guess the Knicks have had mediocre GMs.

Perhaps in spite of their mediocrity, I've always felt that (with the exception of the last 2 seasons) we had a chance to win. The Knicks GMs have repeatedly tried to create something out of nothing, and my point is quite a few times it has worked.

You've gotta admit that we got Sprewell for a bag of peanuts (well, a used up Starks)... Camby got us to the finals (for a beaten up Oakley).

I guess it could be argued that we wasted our time with Ewing, never getting him the quality players he needed around him until time was beginning to run out.

But come on, getting a gimpy Luc Longley is one thing--- but LJ retiring so suddenly was a real setback. One of the last comments I remember from LJ was that he felt Thomas was ready to start, and arguably better than him. That's fine, but the best we could do to replace LJ was with 'Spoon (bzzzzt). But honestly, would you have been more happy signing someone like Corie Blount, Scott Williams, or another "big" PF with no game, just cuz he was 6'10"? (instead of 'Spoon)

Dang. Injuries really killed our franchise over the last decade if you think about it. I'm talking about our mainstays. Starks's knee injury was crushing-- we made it to the finals, but our #2 option was a bit gimpy). Oakley had that toe thing. Ewing's chronically bad knees weren't a big problem until he stopped practicing to save 'em for the games. The shattered wrist was really bad, and the bad heel acting up en route to our finals appearance w/ the Spurs was not good at all.

Yeah, LJ and Camby came either injury-prone or pre-injured. For our gimpy Camby we got the gimpy McDyess. For the gimpy Ewing we got the gimpy Longley. It's all fair, dawg-- makes sense that they're both retired.

Javascript:insertsmilie('%5B%7D:)%5D');But alas, the big problem for everyone still remains that we're saddled w/ Knight, Anderson, and Eisley. Oh, and that 'Spoon is on the team... and that Allan Houston contract... and that Ward is the only draft pick in the past decade still with the team.

One Knick GM nitpick of mine:
I've always contended that if we signed either Steve Smith or Sprewell instead of Houston to begin with... we'd have a title in hand. Steve Smith still had knees back then and Sprewell was a year or two removed from being 1st team all-NBA. All 3 SGs signed for roughly the same money (of course, maybe the truth is that Houston was the only guy who wanted to be part of the Knicks!).

Ironically, Houston is the best of those 3 players now (Smith has faded away completely). Houston was supposed to be our answer to Reggie Miller-- the guy who'd take and make the big shots. Well, he was responsible for knocking out the Heat a couple of times-- he's definitely had his moments in the playoffs.
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
nwny
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7/18/2003  9:10 PM
Posted by necrom33:

Personally, I think Spree is to Housless what Oakley was to Ewing. Spree has covered a lot of Housless shortcomings, particularly on the defensive end. It will be nice eventually to see Housless have to man-up against Tmac, Kobe, Ivo, Carter and the like instead of passing the buck to Spree. I guarantee you none of those guys lose any sleep over Housless' defense.

But people just can't get over that shot against Miami. When you consider his salary and where he plays, it's almost a shame to realize that Housless had his CAREER YEAR last season and still doesn't rank anywhere near the great Shooting Guards in the league in anything except bank accounts. The funny part will be watching his salary GROW as his skills diminsh, then hearing the same people hollering for his departure! How long do you think this one-dimensional player is going to keep getting over?

Quite frankly, IMO, Housless doesn't even rank over Michael Finley. I'd take Finley over Housless any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Bingo. We have a winner
nwny
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7/18/2003  9:17 PM
Posted by playa2:

Here is the problem with SPREWELL. Starting him at the SF position is our biggest weakness. He's an aging mediocre player (17 pts. on 39% FG) making $13-$14 mil a season. Rebounding is our biggest problem. We were outrebounded by more than 4 boards a game last year. It's the main reason we were a bad team. And Sprewell consistently gets out rebounded. Most teams get at least 2 more rebounds out of their starting SF than we do. There's a reason why we've been trying to trade him for 2 years and no one has wanted him. Don't get me wrong, he plays hard and wants to win, but I think that if he was making $5 mil a season he'd be a worthwhile SG who could help a lot of teams competing right now for a championship. He is a man out of place, a man over paid, a man on the wrong team!
You're crazy. 5 mil is mid-level exception money. 17 pp guys don't get mid-level money. Yeah Spre's overpaid. It doesn't take a genius to realize that. But it takes a real hater to say he should be making mid-level exception money.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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7/18/2003  9:22 PM
Wow Playa.... You just plain hate Latrell...

...and keep on gotting picked apart when you post that hate.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
nwny
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7/18/2003  9:44 PM
Posted by TheSage:

Tech-Excellent post

Far too much griping about the Houston contract. At the time knix mgt was praised for the coup. I don't remember one complaint at the time. What we have in Houston is one of the great pure shooters, a gentleman who works hard, keeps his nose clean and contributes to the best of his abilities. No he's not a glove on defense but has improved considerably. On those off nights he has attempted, and often succeeded in making his presence felt on the boards and with ball movement.

Put a healthy McDyess on the court with the present team and minimal contribution from Williams, Sweetney and/or Lampe and the knix have enough to go deep into the playoffs
Wrong there was much gripping at the time he signed. the loudest was about how we outbid ourselves. I have a quote above my desk at work where Houston's says he's surprised the Knicks offered him so much money. We didn't even wait to see what Detroit's offer was. Stupid stupid stupid. The first rule of negotiating is "he who names his price first loses"
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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7/18/2003  10:12 PM
Thet's exactly what Scott LayDown did, nwny....

Bid against themselves.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
newyork
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7/19/2003  2:26 AM
Hey im new to this board. But im a regular at MSG board.

On this topic Spree haters will always be haters, Houston haters will always be haters. Argueing trying to make another change his mind will take forever. And arguing will only make the haters hate even more.

That being said. I would love a natural big athletic young SF over Spree. But I don't think its fair to completely trash Spree with hate and say u want him gone for a sandwich or what ever the comments were. The man has a great work ethic, does everything the coach asks without complaining, & ON THE COURT is the leader & motivater of the team. Spree being a cancer & a bad influence is false. VG had nothing but great things to say about Spree after the FALSE alligations on him about his pink.

I also feel Spree is not only declining cuz of age but cuz with the loss of LJ's post game & Cambys athletism & shot blocking ability it took away to pieces that help Spree become a successful SF. Hopefully the additions of Sweetney & Lampe can help Spree shoot at a better % and be more consistant.

Houston is the better player right now though, and I think its time that fans start giving him the respect he deserves. The contract was a terrible mistake by Layden. U don't offer a 7yr 100mil contract to a 31yr old SG knowing he will only decline as his salary increases. But Houston didn't make in easy for him as that was his demands. And NY is all about winning NOW so the future consiquence was not even thought about.

I don't see the reason for any hating though. Lampe, Sweetney, & Williams are all showing flashes of brilliance and our future is looking pretty nice. This should be the time to look to the future not reflect on the horrible past.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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7/19/2003  3:16 AM
Welcome to the best NYK forum around newyork!

I like your post, especially what you said about Spree:
Posted by newyork:

Hey im new to this board. But im a regular at MSG board.

That being said. I would love a natural big athletic young SF over Spree. But I don't think its fair to completely trash Spree with hate and say u want him gone for a sandwich or what ever the comments were. The man has a great work ethic, does everything the coach asks without complaining, & ON THE COURT is the leader & motivater of the team. Spree being a cancer & a bad influence is false. VG had nothing but great things to say about Spree after the FALSE alligations on him about his pinky.

I also feel Spree is not only declining cuz of age but cuz with the loss of LJ's post game & Cambys athletism & shot blocking ability it took away to pieces that help Spree become a successful SF. Hopefully the additions of Sweetney & Lampe can help Spree shoot at a better % and be more consistant.

Some cats around here won't agree with you on that, but most of us will. I have been saying for the longest that Spree needs the inside presence for him to perform @ the 3 spot. I can see that you want a new face @ SF but Spree naturally should be playing the 2 spot alongside an inside presence. I can see him having a strong season this year with the addition of the rookies and the emergence of Frank Williams.

I didn't agree 100% with you on the next one:
Houston is the better player right now though, and I think its time that fans start giving him the respect he deserves. The contract was a terrible mistake by Layden. U don't offer a 7yr 100mil contract to a 31yr old SG knowing he will only decline as his salary increases. But Houston didn't make in easy for him as that was his demands. And NY is all about winning NOW so the future consiquence was not even thought about.

Houston was only the better player last year. We didn't make the playoffs (again), so who really noticed anyway? For the last two years we have had next to no offensive or defensive inside threat, no real rebounding, no shot blocking, no action in the paint. The lane was open the majority of the time. Other teams went inside on us regularly, with no need to feel intimidated whatsoever. The whole team turned to jump-shooters because we couldn't manage to get an inside game even started. Naturally, the jump shooters would excel with this being the case. That mess has yet to get us anywhere besides the Lottery. Players with an all-around game like Spree need the offensive diversity that an inside-outside game brings. For those who think the rule changes weigh that heavily on the Knicks, then how did other teams get around the zone defense last year? Highlight reels every night showed that reasoning to be as pointless as the Knicks were in the paint most games.

I wish Houston's contract was off our cap, but it's not. Scott Laydown bid against himself and lost. We gave a role player (yeah, a jump-shooter) franchise money. All I believe Laydown can do @ this point (to undo that situation) is trade Allan. Folks who want Spree traded not only hate him, but want some big long term contract in return. Allan is the one whose deal hurts us the most long term, so maybe there'd be a taker for him and we can get some players in here that will not only contribute, but whose contracts are more comparable to their skills, more cap-friendly, and have shorter terms.

It is a purely damned shame for the New York Knicks, the richest team in the NBA, to have the highest payroll in the league and be in the friggin' LOTTERY 2 years running.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
Triggerfinger
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7/19/2003  4:14 AM
a lot of peepz here talk about ridiculous overpaid salaries in our players ( Spree & Houston ) but one forgets if the Knicks dont offer them these type of contracts they walk and the Knicks would probably be in a worse situation than they are now because there is no gaurantee you are going to sign the Kidd, Garnett & Duncans of the league.... Houston was as close to a franchise player they've had, makes sense to sign him to that big contract and avoid loosing him with no compensation.
playa2
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7/19/2003  9:17 AM
Uh MR. New york, Spree was the one that cussed vandummy out at the last practice vandummy coached and thus encouraged vandunce to quit 19 games into the season. Yea I noticed you didn't know about that!
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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7/19/2003  11:30 AM
Posted by Triggerfinger:

a lot of peepz here talk about ridiculous overpaid salaries in our players ( Spree & Houston ) but one forgets if the Knicks dont offer them these type of contracts they walk and the Knicks would probably be in a worse situation than they are now because there is no gaurantee you are going to sign the Kidd, Garnett & Duncans of the league.... Houston was as close to a franchise player they've had, makes sense to sign him to that big contract and avoid loosing him with no compensation.

Um.... hey!

Since we signed Houston to that asinine contract, the only place we've been was the Lottery! How the hell can we do any worse that that??? If HOUSTON is our "franchise" then that's why we are screwed for the long term.

There's NO way signing him to that obscene money helped the team. At All. We could have done a sign and trade for a low-post presence that would have helped compliment Spree's game. (Even Spree himself repeatedly asked for a big man!)
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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7/19/2003  11:35 AM
Posted by playa2:

Uh MR. New york, Spree was the one that cussed vandummy out at the last practice vandummy coached and thus encouraged vandunce to quit 19 games into the season. Yea I noticed you didn't know about that!

Oh please... If Van Dummy (LOL) had any balls he would have stayed. Spree probably told Van Dummy exactly what he needed to hear in order for Van Dummy to get a stepstool, climb up, look in the damn mirror, and finally realize how much of a friggin' chump he is.

We don't need any half-asses on our team. No softees either.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
newyork
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7/19/2003  2:35 PM
Playa: Just cuz I didn't state it doesn't mean I didn't know about it. I could have gone on and on and on with that post about the past 4yrs but there would be no point.

And I can't beleive that yur blaming Spree for VG's departure. Maybe Spree cursing VG out had a very very small part of it maybe it didn't faze VG at all, but u just sound like a Spree hater right now. #1 VG left cuz NYK only cares about making playoffs. And when reporters asked him about teams he had interest coaching for he said that he wanted to go to a team thats DEDICATED TO WINNING A CHAMPIONSHIP. #2 VG left cuz he didn't like the peices that Layden brought in. #3 VG left cuz one of his friends died on 9/11 and he was very hurt over it.

VG said that Spree never missed practice killing all the rummors of how Spree always misses practice. And went out of his way to say nothing but good things about Spree during the pinky incident. And this is after Spree cursed him out. So if Spree was able to curse him out and VG still went out of his way to say good things about Spree then Spree must not be the cancer haters think he is. AND If VG still saying good things about Spree after Spree cursed him out then I doubt Spree cursing him out had any real effect on his departure. VGs on words "If u concentrate on 1% of the negatives he brings then u will miss out on the other 99% of positives he brings"


Oh yea and my loyalty stays with MSG board. THE BEST KNICKS BOARD CREATED. This board is pretty good though.
newyork
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7/19/2003  2:59 PM
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN: Houston is our best player right now. I wouldn't mind trading him either to cut his salary. As I am a knicks fan not a Spree fan or Houston fan but a KNICKS FAN. Anything that benefits the Knicks I support. I think our best chance at trading Houston is to trade him this season as his contract isn't completely out of reach right now 15.7mil. But I doubt it will happen. So though overpaid im still happy for his 20pts a night. And if u consistantly score 20pts a season I don't consider u a role player. He would be the only role player in the NBA who must be doubled regularly. Like I said before its time to give Houston the credit he deserves he completely stepped up his game last season for the whole season 2 50pt games. And was top 10 in scoring for the majority of the season. And was booed at a charity game which just isn't right.

Houston & Spree are not the cause of Knicks losses. We were 500. with Houston & Spree together. U add an improved front court and a healthy season for Houston & Spree and we are well above 500.

All im saying is if a good deal comes along for anyone of our players take it. But don't trade them just to trade them. Again we were 500. with Spree & Houston. They are not the problem our overmatched front court is the problem. When we had LJ & Camby & Thomas & Ewing as our front court there was no problems for Spree & Houston. But last that Harrington & Thomas, Weatherspoon, Doleac was our front court of course it will be harder for Spree & Houston to score.

Houston's 23pt average we cuz he was taking away from Spree's points. BUT thats cuz Spree took a passing role and looked to get Houston the ball more rather than take his usual shots. Take away 2pts from Houston and give them back to Spree and u get the usual Houston 20-21pts & Spree 19pts.
Triggerfinger
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7/19/2003  7:24 PM
Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:


Um.... hey!

Since we signed Houston to that asinine contract, the only place we've been was the Lottery! How the hell can we do any worse that that??? If HOUSTON is our "franchise" then that's why we are screwed for the long term.

There's NO way signing him to that obscene money helped the team. At All. We could have done a sign and trade for a low-post presence that would have helped compliment Spree's game. (Even Spree himself repeatedly asked for a big man!)

errr.. you make it seem like management can instantly snap thier fingers and get a Shaq for Houston trade at thier will... cmon gimme a break.. quality players dont fall into management hands so easily...

we sign Houston to a huge contract or he walks and the knicks get nothing... then you want the Knicks to sign him and trade him for a quality big man... who gives up a quality big man for a overpaid shooting guard with a long gauranteed contract? maybe if you stopped believing that trade negotions is nothing more than trading player cards you'd get a grasp of what a difficult desicion the knicks had to make when signing houston...

to put things in perspective.. the Spurs just lost the race for Kidd, but they are lucky enough to have a Duncan on thier roster as well as a cast of quality supporting players.. the knicks where in no such position at the time they signed houston....

playa2
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7/19/2003  8:39 PM


I also feel Spree is not only declining cuz of age but cuz with the loss of LJ's post game & Cambys athletism & shot blocking ability it took away to pieces that help Spree become a successful SF. Hopefully the additions of Sweetney & Lampe can help Spree shoot at a better % and be more consistant.


[/quote]

Listen NEWYORK, that statement above alone is the reason he isn't needed here anymore . We already have a starting shooting guard. Spree has tried to out shoot Houston as soon as Ewing role was diminishing knowing that Houston was the "MAN" and he was the Utility man for the knicks and that's a fact. He's a wannabe on a high profile team and he doesn't even want to go to a team that has a chance to win a title soon so what is that telling you.
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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7/20/2003  4:26 AM
Posted by newyork:

HARDCOREKNICKSFAN: Houston is our best player right now. I wouldn't mind trading him either to cut his salary. As I am a knicks fan not a Spree fan or Houston fan but a KNICKS FAN. Anything that benefits the Knicks I support. I think our best chance at trading Houston is to trade him this season as his contract isn't completely out of reach right now 15.7mil. But I doubt it will happen. So though overpaid im still happy for his 20pts a night. And if u consistantly score 20pts a season I don't consider u a role player. He would be the only role player in the NBA who must be doubled regularly. Like I said before its time to give Houston the credit he deserves he completely stepped up his game last season for the whole season 2 50pt games. And was top 10 in scoring for the majority of the season. And was booed at a charity game which just isn't right.

Houston & Spree are not the cause of Knicks losses. We were 500. with Houston & Spree together. U add an improved front court and a healthy season for Houston & Spree and we are well above 500.

All im saying is if a good deal comes along for anyone of our players take it. But don't trade them just to trade them. Again we were 500. with Spree & Houston. They are not the problem our overmatched front court is the problem. When we had LJ & Camby & Thomas & Ewing as our front court there was no problems for Spree & Houston. But last that Harrington & Thomas, Weatherspoon, Doleac was our front court of course it will be harder for Spree & Houston to score.

Houston's 23pt average we cuz he was taking away from Spree's points. BUT thats cuz Spree took a passing role and looked to get Houston the ball more rather than take his usual shots. Take away 2pts from Houston and give them back to Spree and u get the usual Houston 20-21pts & Spree 19pts.

Good points.... We definitely agree....
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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7/20/2003  4:41 AM
Posted by Triggerfinger:
Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:


Um.... hey!

Since we signed Houston to that asinine contract, the only place we've been was the Lottery! How the hell can we do any worse that that??? If HOUSTON is our "franchise" then that's why we are screwed for the long term.

There's NO way signing him to that obscene money helped the team. At All. We could have done a sign and trade for a low-post presence that would have helped compliment Spree's game. (Even Spree himself repeatedly asked for a big man!)

errr.. you make it seem like management can instantly snap thier fingers and get a Shaq for Houston trade at thier will... cmon gimme a break.. quality players dont fall into management hands so easily...

And never did I ever said that they would. It's not about a finger snap, but waiting until the right move comes along.

we sign Houston to a huge contract or he walks and the knicks get nothing... then you want the Knicks to sign him and trade him for a quality big man... who gives up a quality big man for a overpaid shooting guard with a long gauranteed contract? maybe if you stopped believing that trade negotions is nothing more than trading player cards you'd get a grasp of what a difficult desicion the knicks had to make when signing houston...

I do know that trading players is a tedious process, and when did I let on that I believed thjat it wasn't? Recollect and reanalyse your data, fella. Please.

There isn't a damn thing wrong with trade talk, and trading Allan for a player in another position is far from unheard of, so maybe you should update the "cards" you read that mess from.

to put things in perspective.. the Spurs just lost the race for Kidd, but they are lucky enough to have a Duncan on thier roster as well as a cast of quality supporting players.. the knicks where in no such position at the time they signed houston....

The fact of the matter is that Scott LayDown bid against himself and paid Allan superstar cash. There's never a real reason to do that aside from being hasty. As for the Spurs, they didn't really even need Kidd, but rather a replacement for Robinson. They have Rasho, so they have addressed their biggest issue.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!

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