Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by VDesai:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by VDesai:

103 PPG against for the Suns is misleading because of the pace at which they play. They really aren't so bad from a points given up per possession standpoint, or in a points differential standpoint. Marion was a catalyst for the fastbreak b/c of his stls and turnovers.

And you could say the more poss/gm the more chances at stls, turnovers, gambles on D, etc etc etc. Championship teams don't win because they fast break their way to the trophy(Sans Lakers). They win with defense and great half court execution.

That is true, but the point remains- Suns actually rank 11th according to Knickerblogger in pts given up per 100 possessions. Miami, with slow plodding Shaq is 25th. Shaq is not a defensive enforcer at this point in his career- and while he's had years where's blocked shots and cleaned the glass- he's never been 100% committed there. Marion was a good 1 on 1 and help player for the Suns. He cleaned up mistakes for them.

It's all about the Post Season and Shaq has proven himself there Marion hasn't.

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by VDesai:

You missed the point- Shaq's level of play has dipped greatly. What has he done in 2 years that makes you think he could still make an impact in the playoffs? Miss half the games? Not be able to play as many minutes? He is not the same player he was during that finals run.

So you're saying you don't think Shaq can give 13ppg/8-9reb in the playoffs for the Suns when he's currently producing 14ppg/7-8reb for the Heat? The Suns are a better supporting cast than he had 2yrs ago. You're being very irrational.

Posted by islesfan:

I don't think this is the last move Kerr makes, not by a long shot.

If I'm the Knicks, I trade them Balkman for their 1st rd pick. He's vastly overrated and he would fit in better with an up and down team like the Suns.

I beleive that the Suns also get the Heat's pick in this deal.

Posted by VDesai:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by VDesai:

You missed the point- Shaq's level of play has dipped greatly. What has he done in 2 years that makes you think he could still make an impact in the playoffs? Miss half the games? Not be able to play as many minutes? He is not the same player he was during that finals run.

So you're saying you don't think Shaq can give 13ppg/8-9reb in the playoffs for the Suns when he's currently producing 14ppg/7-8reb for the Heat? The Suns are a better supporting cast than he had 2yrs ago. You're being very irrational.

No that's not irrationality- you're basically conceding he would have a small impact. 13-8? How does that make them a better team? They are worse inside/defensively, the pace is slowed down and Amare has less room to operate. That 13/8 might be valuable somewhere else, but the Suns have to make up for the overall impact elsewhere.

It seems like the strategy will be to play their game and use Shaq when they have to- but to play their game without Marion is a downgrade.

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by nysportsfan11:

Posted by TrueBlue:
It worked in 05-06 Diaw performed more than well. He kinda lost his way once Amare came back into the fray. The way I look at it Amare, Diaw, Shaq, Brian Skinner, Hill, Tucker are more than capable of handling any front court player in the West. Playoffs are about half court basketball and defense not Run N Gun and offense.

Boris' problem is that he's a natural at the 4. In '05-06, he was playing the 4 and sometimes the 5. He was quicker, smarter and more athletic than most players he was going up against on a nightly basis in the regular season. He also spread the floor and took opponents' best rebounders from the basket. You now put him at the 3 with Shaq and Amare. He worked much better with Shawn than he does Amare whose ball dominance hurts Diaw's Odom-like game. Amare's jumper is incredible compared to what it used to be, but he still likes to come across the lane for jump hooks and dunks...a lane that will now be filled by Shaq who is wholly ineffective outside of 8 feet.

The good thing for the Suns is that no one is going to double Shaq, yet you still have to double Amare. If Shaq moves his slow ass for the first time in 2 years, he'll get plenty of open looks off passes from Amare and Boris.

But defensively, having Shaq stand there and watch as all of the faster 4's and 5's in the west eat him alive or picking up cheap fouls when Tony, Chris, Deron, and almost every other point guard not named Fisher or Skip blow right past Nash on a nightly basis, is not helping the cause. Who is the person on the Suns that D'Antoni is going to call on in the 4th quarter to stop the opponent's best player? Shawn Marion guarded everyone from Parker to Dirk to Kobe to Duncan. Now what? Diaw? Hill? As bad as the Suns were defensively, they will be far worse now that they don't have Marion out there creating turnovers, forcing players into bad shots, and playing help side to make up for all of Nash, Barbosa and Amare's mistakes. Raja Bell can't do it alone.

The Suns are giving up 103ppg so Shawn Marion/Sunsn aren't/wasn't and isn't stopping anybody and for all the kudos Marion gets for giving Dirk fits 2yrs ago well guess what Steven Jackson/Al Harrington got into Dirks cakes last yr. It's best to say Dirk is a Sapp. Marion never guarded Duncan and if he did it was the Duncan with Plantar Faciatis.

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by VDesai:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by VDesai:

103 PPG against for the Suns is misleading because of the pace at which they play. They really aren't so bad from a points given up per possession standpoint, or in a points differential standpoint. Marion was a catalyst for the fastbreak b/c of his stls and turnovers.

And you could say the more poss/gm the more chances at stls, turnovers, gambles on D, etc etc etc. Championship teams don't win because they fast break their way to the trophy(Sans Lakers). They win with defense and great half court execution.

That is true, but the point remains- Suns actually rank 11th according to Knickerblogger in pts given up per 100 possessions. Miami, with slow plodding Shaq is 25th. Shaq is not a defensive enforcer at this point in his career- and while he's had years where's blocked shots and cleaned the glass- he's never been 100% committed there. Marion was a good 1 on 1 and help player for the Suns. He cleaned up mistakes for them.

It's all about the Post Season and Shaq has proven himself there Marion hasn't.

Posted by VDesai:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by nysportsfan11:

Posted by TrueBlue:
It worked in 05-06 Diaw performed more than well. He kinda lost his way once Amare came back into the fray. The way I look at it Amare, Diaw, Shaq, Brian Skinner, Hill, Tucker are more than capable of handling any front court player in the West. Playoffs are about half court basketball and defense not Run N Gun and offense.

Boris' problem is that he's a natural at the 4. In '05-06, he was playing the 4 and sometimes the 5. He was quicker, smarter and more athletic than most players he was going up against on a nightly basis in the regular season. He also spread the floor and took opponents' best rebounders from the basket. You now put him at the 3 with Shaq and Amare. He worked much better with Shawn than he does Amare whose ball dominance hurts Diaw's Odom-like game. Amare's jumper is incredible compared to what it used to be, but he still likes to come across the lane for jump hooks and dunks...a lane that will now be filled by Shaq who is wholly ineffective outside of 8 feet.

The good thing for the Suns is that no one is going to double Shaq, yet you still have to double Amare. If Shaq moves his slow ass for the first time in 2 years, he'll get plenty of open looks off passes from Amare and Boris.

But defensively, having Shaq stand there and watch as all of the faster 4's and 5's in the west eat him alive or picking up cheap fouls when Tony, Chris, Deron, and almost every other point guard not named Fisher or Skip blow right past Nash on a nightly basis, is not helping the cause. Who is the person on the Suns that D'Antoni is going to call on in the 4th quarter to stop the opponent's best player? Shawn Marion guarded everyone from Parker to Dirk to Kobe to Duncan. Now what? Diaw? Hill? As bad as the Suns were defensively, they will be far worse now that they don't have Marion out there creating turnovers, forcing players into bad shots, and playing help side to make up for all of Nash, Barbosa and Amare's mistakes. Raja Bell can't do it alone.

The Suns are giving up 103ppg so Shawn Marion/Sunsn aren't/wasn't and isn't stopping anybody and for all the kudos Marion gets for giving Dirk fits 2yrs ago well guess what Steven Jackson/Al Harrington got into Dirks cakes last yr. It's best to say Dirk is a Sapp. Marion never guarded Duncan and if he did it was the Duncan with Plantar Faciatis.

exactly!!

Not exactly- as I mentioned earlier, the Suns rank 11th in pts given up per 100 possessions according to the Stats kept up by Knickerblogger. Not the greatest defensive team, but but at least average to slightly above. The 103 is misleading total cause of the no. of possesions. The Heat, with Shaq patrolling the paint, are 25th.

Posted by Solace:

Posted by VDesai:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by nysportsfan11:

Posted by TrueBlue:
It worked in 05-06 Diaw performed more than well. He kinda lost his way once Amare came back into the fray. The way I look at it Amare, Diaw, Shaq, Brian Skinner, Hill, Tucker are more than capable of handling any front court player in the West. Playoffs are about half court basketball and defense not Run N Gun and offense.

Boris' problem is that he's a natural at the 4. In '05-06, he was playing the 4 and sometimes the 5. He was quicker, smarter and more athletic than most players he was going up against on a nightly basis in the regular season. He also spread the floor and took opponents' best rebounders from the basket. You now put him at the 3 with Shaq and Amare. He worked much better with Shawn than he does Amare whose ball dominance hurts Diaw's Odom-like game. Amare's jumper is incredible compared to what it used to be, but he still likes to come across the lane for jump hooks and dunks...a lane that will now be filled by Shaq who is wholly ineffective outside of 8 feet.

The good thing for the Suns is that no one is going to double Shaq, yet you still have to double Amare. If Shaq moves his slow ass for the first time in 2 years, he'll get plenty of open looks off passes from Amare and Boris.

But defensively, having Shaq stand there and watch as all of the faster 4's and 5's in the west eat him alive or picking up cheap fouls when Tony, Chris, Deron, and almost every other point guard not named Fisher or Skip blow right past Nash on a nightly basis, is not helping the cause. Who is the person on the Suns that D'Antoni is going to call on in the 4th quarter to stop the opponent's best player? Shawn Marion guarded everyone from Parker to Dirk to Kobe to Duncan. Now what? Diaw? Hill? As bad as the Suns were defensively, they will be far worse now that they don't have Marion out there creating turnovers, forcing players into bad shots, and playing help side to make up for all of Nash, Barbosa and Amare's mistakes. Raja Bell can't do it alone.

The Suns are giving up 103ppg so Shawn Marion/Sunsn aren't/wasn't and isn't stopping anybody and for all the kudos Marion gets for giving Dirk fits 2yrs ago well guess what Steven Jackson/Al Harrington got into Dirks cakes last yr. It's best to say Dirk is a Sapp. Marion never guarded Duncan and if he did it was the Duncan with Plantar Faciatis.

exactly!!

Not exactly- as I mentioned earlier, the Suns rank 11th in pts given up per 100 possessions according to the Stats kept up by Knickerblogger. Not the greatest defensive team, but but at least average to slightly above. The 103 is misleading total cause of the no. of possesions. The Heat, with Shaq patrolling the paint, are 25th.

VDesai, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. This trade really makes no sense from the Suns standpoint. They could've gotten more for Marion and frankly, carrying Shaq for 1-2 extra years over how long Marion would've stayed doesn't make sense when Shaq is RAPIDLY declining. Marion is an awesome player. They should've gotten a plethora in young players in return. Shaq? Doesn't make sense at this point. Phoenix got worse, as far as I can tell. The trade makes no sense. The scary part is that this trade actually makes Phoenix worse on defense.

[Edited by - Solace on Feb 06 2008 1:06 PM]