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Who'd You Rather Have - ZBO or DLEE?


Author Poll
bobs3304
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If you had to choose 1...
David Lee
Zach Randolph
View Results


Author Thread
holfresh
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11/17/2007  3:17 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by holfresh:


And Blue, my rants aren't even directed at you...You have been one of the most honest guys who shoot from the hip....


Thanks, and I didn't take it personally. I'm not committed to one more than the other, I just want to see a fair fight.

But...

A) It's not like we're hyping up Travis Knight or Scotty Brooks
B) You're not much different than papabear saying "all you guys who don't support Zeke and Marbs are racist."

I'm used to it. I used to get called a racist on a near daily basis for my diatribes on realgm... by the same guys who now want to hunt down some knicks with pitchforks. Never with an apology to me and my ilk though.

I'm just surprised that the blacks who prefer Lee, or who don't like Isiah and Steph, don't take you guys to task for your comments. I don't see why they should be any less offended.

Now back to Portland. Why did they want to trade Zach for Lee?

I'm not here trying to say I'd love to have Zack over for dinner or to hang out with...All I care about is wins and losses...Zacks gives the Knicks the best chance to win, I think...Am I missing something, is this poll about something else???



[Edited by - holfresh on 11-17-2007 3:19 PM]
AUTOADVERT
holfresh
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11/17/2007  3:26 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by holfresh:


And Blue, my rants aren't even directed at you...You have been one of the most honest guys who shoot from the hip....


Thanks, and I didn't take it personally. I'm not committed to one more than the other, I just want to see a fair fight.

But...

A) It's not like we're hyping up Travis Knight or Scotty Brooks
B) You're not much different than papabear saying "all you guys who don't support Zeke and Marbs are racist."

I'm used to it. I used to get called a racist on a near daily basis for my diatribes on realgm... by the same guys who now want to hunt down some knicks with pitchforks. Never with an apology to me and my ilk though.

I'm just surprised that the blacks who prefer Lee, or who don't like Isiah and Steph, don't take you guys to task for your comments. I don't see why they should be any less offended.

Now back to Portland. Why did they want to trade Zach for Lee?

By the way, What comments have I made that you find so offensive?

BlueSeats
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11/17/2007  3:31 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by holfresh:


And Blue, my rants aren't even directed at you...You have been one of the most honest guys who shoot from the hip....


Thanks, and I didn't take it personally. I'm not committed to one more than the other, I just want to see a fair fight.

But...

A) It's not like we're hyping up Travis Knight or Scotty Brooks
B) You're not much different than papabear saying "all you guys who don't support Zeke and Marbs are racist."

I'm used to it. I used to get called a racist on a near daily basis for my diatribes on realgm... by the same guys who now want to hunt down some knicks with pitchforks. Never with an apology to me and my ilk though.

I'm just surprised that the blacks who prefer Lee, or who don't like Isiah and Steph, don't take you guys to task for your comments. I don't see why they should be any less offended.

Now back to Portland. Why did they want to trade Zach for Lee?

By the way, What comments have I made that you find so offensive?



That people can't look past their own skin in forming basketball opinions.

So white people who prefer Lee to Zach must do so because he too is white. Ergo, if blacks do it's because they hate their own race, or are Uncle Toms.



[Edited by - blueseats on 11-17-2007 3:36 PM]
oohah
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11/17/2007  3:34 PM
That people can't look past their own skin in forming basketball opinions.

Blue, if you think that everyone, even just everyone on this board is completely color-blind, and that race/ethnicity has no bearing on their opinions one way or the other, I think that is very naive.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
newyorknewyork
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11/17/2007  3:37 PM
Im black, and I choose Lee over Randolph.

10.7pts, 10.4rebs, 60%fg shooting, 81%ft shooting, 1.6 turnovers in 29.5mins. With a salary of 7-9mil

Randolph right now is averaging 19.4pts on 19 shot attempts. If Randolph put up #s like 15pts, 10rebs, 4ast, 2tos, 50%fg shooting, 75%ft shooting. It wouldn't be close, but he isn't.

Its not about race its about efficency & salary. People like Lee's efficency in the number he produces to go along with his projected salary. Rather than gaudy #s with limited efficency and a 13mil per season salary.
https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
BlueSeats
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11/17/2007  3:45 PM
Posted by oohah:
That people can't look past their own skin in forming basketball opinions.

Blue, if you think that everyone, even just everyone on this board is completely color-blind, and that race/ethnicity has no bearing on their opinions one way or the other, I think that is very naive.

oohah

And that's why Portland wanted to trade the guy they once touted as their franchise player for Lee?

It's simply insulting to see people's good arguments for preferring one player over another dismissed on little but racial grounds. Or do you see where Holfresh has otherwise made an irrefutable case for Zach to bolster his race based claims?
holfresh
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11/17/2007  3:55 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by holfresh:


And Blue, my rants aren't even directed at you...You have been one of the most honest guys who shoot from the hip....


Thanks, and I didn't take it personally. I'm not committed to one more than the other, I just want to see a fair fight.

But...

A) It's not like we're hyping up Travis Knight or Scotty Brooks
B) You're not much different than papabear saying "all you guys who don't support Zeke and Marbs are racist."

I'm used to it. I used to get called a racist on a near daily basis for my diatribes on realgm... by the same guys who now want to hunt down some knicks with pitchforks. Never with an apology to me and my ilk though.

I'm just surprised that the blacks who prefer Lee, or who don't like Isiah and Steph, don't take you guys to task for your comments. I don't see why they should be any less offended.

Now back to Portland. Why did they want to trade Zach for Lee?

By the way, What comments have I made that you find so offensive?



That people can't look past their own skin in forming basketball opinions.

So white people who prefer Lee to Zach must do so because he too is white. Ergo, if blacks do it's because they hate their own race, or are Uncle Toms.



[Edited by - blueseats on 11-17-2007 3:36 PM]

I think you are stretching my opinions a bit there...I would never say the choice of Lee over Zack is solely made because race by either color...For example, I think King1 loves Lee because he knows him...So his opinions are always bias, he isn't even a Knick fan....

I do think that some guys here make their minds up about Lee because of race...Do you think otherwise?...That said, I would much rather see Lee play better ball than Zack..I think Zack is a bad seed and would eventually get in trouble, embarrassing the organization much like what Zeke and Marbs are doing right now...The Knicks drafted Lee, so I would like to see him excel and win the position...But right now, Zack is head and shoulders better than Lee so he gets the nod in my book...I want to see this team win, period....I don't care who plays...Athletes and Actors does nothing for me in terms of being role models...I have never looked up to them...So I really don't care when they get in trouble, I think they are just like anyone else in this society until they screw up my team..Like Marbs, then I turn on them...Simple...

But you are using a broad brush when casting me as a guy who thinks people like Lee solely because of race....



VDesai
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11/17/2007  4:05 PM
I'm not black or white and I'd pick Lee over Randolph. You take into account their salaries and off field issues in addition to on the court performance and I think most of the NBA would make the same decision if they had the choice.
Bonn1997
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11/17/2007  4:12 PM
Here's an interesting stat that shows how inefficient Zach is on offense. Zach's taking 19.0 shots per game and averaging 19.4 PPG. For every 19.0 shots David Lee has taken (career wise), he's given 28.8 points. Basically, Lee is 1.5 times as productive per possession as Zach--and that's not even factoring in turnovers. Now I don't think race is the key factor in anyone's decision here. However, when you consider the huge difference in productivity per possession on offense and huge difference in attitude and off the court problems, one could just as easily claim those choosing Zach over Lee are engaging in reverse discrimination.
holfresh
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11/17/2007  4:18 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Here's an interesting stat that shows how inefficient Zach is on offense. Zach's taking 19.0 shots per game and averaging 19.4 PPG. For every 19.0 shots David Lee has taken (career wise), he's given 28.8 points. Basically, Lee is 1.5 times as productive per possession as Zach--and that's not even factoring in turnovers. Now I don't think race is the key factor in anyone's decision here. However, when you consider the huge difference in productivity per possession on offense and huge difference in attitude and off the court problems, one could just as easily claim those choosing Zach over Lee are engaging in reverse discrimination.

If the game was played on paper you would have an argument...We know how Zack gets his points and we want him to take those shots to open the middle for Curry...He shoots a little too much tho...But the offense flows a lot better when Zack is on the court...

Vmart
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11/17/2007  4:22 PM
Posted by VDesai:

I'm not black or white and I'd pick Lee over Randolph. You take into account their salaries and off field issues in addition to on the court performance and I think most of the NBA would make the same decision if they had the choice.

So you are saying that when Lee gets his big contract his numbers won't mean as much. What does what a player making have to do with anything. Has Zach had any off field issues with the Knicks so far. A player can't escape his past with you guys and can never have a fresh start. Knicks fans should be happy they have two really good players instead they make it their agenda to find reason to hate on a player they do not prefer. Truely sad.

holfresh
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11/17/2007  4:24 PM
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by VDesai:

I'm not black or white and I'd pick Lee over Randolph. You take into account their salaries and off field issues in addition to on the court performance and I think most of the NBA would make the same decision if they had the choice.

So you are saying that when Lee gets his big contract his numbers won't mean as much. What does what a player making have to do with anything. Has Zach had any off field issues with the Knicks so far. A player can't escape his past with you guys and can never have a fresh start. Knicks fans should be happy they have two really good players instead they make it their agenda to find reason to hate on a player they do not prefer. Truely sad.

totally agree!!!

Bonn1997
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11/17/2007  4:33 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by Bonn1997:

Here's an interesting stat that shows how inefficient Zach is on offense. Zach's taking 19.0 shots per game and averaging 19.4 PPG. For every 19.0 shots David Lee has taken (career wise), he's given 28.8 points. Basically, Lee is 1.5 times as productive per possession as Zach--and that's not even factoring in turnovers. Now I don't think race is the key factor in anyone's decision here. However, when you consider the huge difference in productivity per possession on offense and huge difference in attitude and off the court problems, one could just as easily claim those choosing Zach over Lee are engaging in reverse discrimination.

If the game was played on paper you would have an argument...We know how Zack gets his points and we want him to take those shots to open the middle for Curry...He shoots a little too much tho...But the offense flows a lot better when Zack is on the court...


I forgot Zach does so many things that don't show up on paper. Oops!
oohah
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11/17/2007  4:36 PM
And that's why Portland wanted to trade the guy they once touted as their franchise player for Lee?

Portland wanted as much as they could get for Zach, that is why they wanted Lee.

They probably traded him too late. Lee would not have been there to 'replace Randolph' so much as support the guys they are grooming to replace him with: Oden, Aldridge, and Roy.

It's simply insulting to see people's good arguments for preferring one player over another dismissed on little but racial grounds. Or do you see where Holfresh has otherwise made an irrefutable case for Zach to bolster his race based claims?

I am not talking about Holfresh per se. I was insulted by Malik Rose starting over Lee 2 years ago, and the arguments defending that. But this is much different. I think the argument for Lee over Randolph is weak. Randolph has had about 3 games as good or better than the one Lee had last night already.

Do you remember Mark West and Tom Chambers? Mark West was one of the most efficient players ever in the game. But Tom Chambers was a "star". Like West, Lee shoots a high percentage. Chambers was less efficient, but he could regularly do things that West could never even attempt.

That is the way I view Lee and Randolph, except West was better than Lee, and Chambers is a lot better than Randolph.

***

Based on the quote I am replying to, I would think that you don't believe that race influences the pumping-up of Lee to proportions that do not reflect reality. I'm still not sure because you haven't addressed that question directly.

I gotta shop for Turkey Day. I'll check later, I'm looking forward to reading your opinion.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
oohah
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11/17/2007  4:39 PM
I forgot Zach does so many things that don't show up on paper. Oops!

Actually Randolph does do plenty that doesn' show up on paper.

His mere presence takes the pressure off Curry in a way that Lee can not. He rebounds and is a threat to score off the rebound or his own move. Lee needs just the right matchup to score on his man.

Randolph also wreaks havoc on the boards and that causes good things to happen even if he doesn't get the rebound, sort of like Lee.

oohah



Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
McK1
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11/17/2007  4:40 PM
having watched the games but does Isiah even run the pick n roll with Stiph and Zach much?

the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
holfresh
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11/17/2007  4:45 PM
Posted by oohah:
I forgot Zach does so many things that don't show up on paper. Oops!

Actually Randolph does do plenty that doesn' show up on paper.

His mere presence takes the pressure off Curry in a way that Lee can not. He rebounds and is a threat to score off the rebound or his own move. Lee needs just the right matchup to score on his man.

Randolph also wreaks havoc on the boards and that causes good things to happen even if he doesn't get the rebound, sort of like Lee.

oohah

Who cares, that doesn't show up on the efficiency charts anywhere...

holfresh
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11/17/2007  4:45 PM
Posted by McK1:

having watched the games but does Isiah even run the pick n roll with Stiph and Zach much?

Never and I can't really understand it to be honest...

King1
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11/17/2007  5:03 PM
If Zach takes pressure of Curry then why does Curry have better offensive games when Zach is gone. Zach settles for jumpers when EC is in the game. Since we got such a great player in Zach with everyone else back shouldnt we be significantly better than last year ?
McK1
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11/17/2007  5:06 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by McK1:

having watched the games but does Isiah even run the pick n roll with Stiph and Zach much?

Never and I can't really understand it to be honest...


really

why bring in Zach if you aren't going to focus the offense to his and Stiph's strength

the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Who'd You Rather Have - ZBO or DLEE?

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