Posted by bobs3304:

Posted by bitty41:

Your talking Championships? You need to walk before you can run thats not even in the Knicks realm of possibility. Again how many "franchise players" are really in the NBA at this point. Because if thats the direction your trying to take this discussion when we get down to the nuts and bolts of it were talking about maybe a handful of players most of which are at the tail end of their careers. Granted you could argue that certain players seem to possibly have the potential at some point in their career but right now there's not many "franchise players" in the traditional sense.

Yea, that's true. But I still don't see your point. The fact that we need to get there still stands, and I don't see the franchise making any preparations for it. We're barely tredding water.


Dwight Howard
Steve Nash
Kevin Garnett
Carmello Anthony
Lebron James
Kobe Bryant
Dwayne Wade
Yao Ming/T-Mac
Dirk Nowitzki
Tim Duncan
Chris Bosh
Jason Kidd
Gilbert Arenas


That's 13 guys there that I don't think anyone can argue with. And that's excluding guys like Jermaine O'Neal, Paul Pierce, Pau Gasol, Baron Davis, Shaq, Carlos Boozer, Allen Iverson, and Elton Brand, not to mention Greg Oden and Kevin Durant.



So you were saying...



[Edited by - bobs3304 on 08-11-2007 3:40 PM]

So you are saying that all the players above can turn any team they goto into a Contender? If you can answer yes to that question I would seriously like to see your reasoning behind that logic. IMO unless a player is at the level that he can turn any team that he lands on into a contender than I wouldn't consider him a franchise player. Granted you can still be a terrific ball player but high scoring averages and all-stars game appearances nonewithstanding that doesn't make you into a Franchise player.

Dwight Howard are you kidding me and Garnett it was pretty proven in Minny that he alone isn't going turn a crappy team into a good team. McGrady hasn't even left the first round of the playoffs similar to Melo and Bosh. But I guess to you anyone that makes the all-star team is a Franchise player right? Is that what you were getting at and because Zach has never made an all-star team than clearly he isn't at the level of guys like Chis Bosh, Jermaine O'Neal, Carlos Boozer, Dwight Howard i.e. non-franchise player?

[Edited by - bitty41 on 11-08-2007 4:28 PM]

[Edited by - bitty41 on 11-08-2007 4:29 PM]

Bitty:


Arguing against "having a franchise player" logic is futile.

Cmon buddy, pull your head out of your butt. Go look up the stats - Only the Pistons twice, and Sonics once have ever won a chip without a HOF player.


What are you trying to do neway - prove me wrong just to feel closer to your compadres on here?

Zack has taken the Knicks to another level and the haters are restless...Priceless!!!!

Posted by bitty41:

Posted by bobs3304:

^ I would say that they are still replaceable.

8/9 last championships were won by Shaq and Duncan.........all with different teammates. The only stable factor was that Duncan and Shaq were on them.

You know you're agreeing with me right? You're basically saying that Isiah is a terrible GM, and Zach isn't anything we really need (ie: a franchise player).



[Edited by - bobs3304 on 08-11-2007 2:55 PM]

Your talking Championships? You need to walk before you can run thats not even in the Knicks realm of possibility. Again how many "franchise players" are really in the NBA at this point. Because if thats the direction your trying to take this discussion when we get down to the nuts and bolts of it were talking about maybe a handful of players most of which are at the tail end of their careers. Granted you could argue that certain players seem to possibly have the potential at some point in their career but right now there's not many "franchise players" in the traditional sense.

Exactly. Essentially the premise suggests that only teams that have "franchise" players or have someone that others have subjectively determined will become a "franchise" player did a good job with management. bobs has even written, as can be evidenced by the reality of winning titles and getting far in the playoffs, that few teams meet such criteria. The assumption then has to be that every NBA team that does not do X to get a "franchise" player, and that is a lot of teams, are doomed and should "blow up" their rosters. Problem is with so few franchise players -- as well as other contributing factors -- the chances of actually landing one through the draft, or free-agency are not good.

How does one come to grips with this reality? It's a HUGE risk to blow a team up, and how interesting is it that Kiki is the man offered as "savior" when he was fired for not meeting expectations, which is the EXACT criticism made of Zeke. He was lucky enough to have Mello fall into his lap (could have EASILY wound up with Darko), picked Nikoloz Tskitishvili, overpayed for K-Mart, and that team still hasn't gotten out of the first round of the playoffs since he's been gone.

Everyone once ranted and raved about Denver being the model for how to turn a franchise around, but they still haven't won anything 5 years into "the plan". If the basis for how to run a team is whether you are championship material, then the Nuggets have been a failure thus far.

But you have to look at a number of factors when looking at Denver....

He turned Dice into Camby and the number 9 which could have been Amare and a number of other good players

He got rid of a number of horrific deals and had the cap space to go out and get Andre Miller and Kmart it's not a science put the cap space was there to get deals done......

He also had enough pieces in place to make an Iverson trade happen......

Isiah couldn't get Vince Carter, Rasheed Wallace, Kevin Garnett, Gasol, etc no easy feet to get these guys, but

Curry 10 Million (2 lottery picks)
Zach 16 Million (four year max deal)
Q 8 Million (21st pick and a long term deal
Crawford 9 Million (7 year deal, take on JYD longterm deal, Baker favor to Craws Agent)
Marbury 20 Million (4 picks, max deal, max deal for hardaway, euros)

We are a ****ing joke and may not make the playoffs so who in that group didn't Isiah bring in, the man is indept doesn't know real talent, real heart and real players I'm sorry but he overpaid for everyone he got

Baron Davis was had for 10cents on the dollar, Tyson Chandler etc, Iverson, these guys were had for virtually nothing yet isiah gets ****ed in the ass in every deal and we are supposed to be patient because you can't rebuild?

Plain and simple here it is
1. Channing Frye should have been Bynum or Granger (Any if not all people on this sit were for
that)
2. Jerome James and Jared Jefferies should not have been signed (ESPN, CNN, EVERYONE BUT ISIAH)
3. Q deal was horrible should have just held onto Kurt Instead of trading for eddy giving away two lottery picks.
4. No executive in their right mind does the Francis deal, he kills every team he ever went too.....

So if Isiah was just patient your looking and this is nothing crazy this is your team right now.

Bynum, Noah
Lee, Thomas
Granger, Balkman
Crawford, Chandler
Marbury, Collins

With plenty of cap room, nothing there is crazy nothing there is hindsight

quote]
Posted by bobs3304:

Bitty:


Arguing against "having a franchise player" logic is futile.

Cmon buddy, pull your head out of your butt. Go look up the stats - Only the Pistons twice, and Sonics once have ever won a chip without a HOF player.


What are you trying to do neway - prove me wrong just to feel closer to your compadres on here?

Wait I am suppose to interpret this above statement to mean yes that the 13 players you listed are "franchise players"?

Okay your smarter than that I never said that I was against getting a "franchise player". But im a realist and granted I would love to see a Knicks team with Tim Duncan and Jason Kidd that ain't happening.

Is Zach Randolph a HOF player. Obv not. Just like Walker, Jamison, Rahim and other supposed past franchise players aren't.
Does the acquisition of Zach Randolph get us anywhere closer to getting a HOF player?

No, in fact, it hurts us, b/c of the cap hit.


End of story.


Now you understand my beef.


So everyone that keeps blowing smoke up my ass about how great Z-Bo is, and how it's only 3 games, you guys might as well quit.

You obv don't get it, which is cool. No sweat. Just chill it with the "personality" remarks, and other childish ****. I'm here to read, and to xpress what I think. That's all.

[/quote]

The Zach acquisition wasn't suppose to get us any closer to a HOF it was just a significant upgrade at the power forward position thats all nothing more or nothing less. If we use the barometer of HOF status in determing whether or not to acquire a player we'll barely have enough to fill out a starting 5.

[Edited by - bitty41 on 11-08-2007 5:16 PM]

Posted by MS:

But you have to look at a number of factors when looking at Denver....

He turned Dice into Camby and the number 9 which could have been Amare and a number of other good players

He got rid of a number of horrific deals and had the cap space to go out and get Andre Miller and Kmart it's not a science put the cap space was there to get deals done......

He also had enough pieces in place to make an Iverson trade happen......

All of which has netted Denver what exactly? Thanks, btw, you yourself have further outlined how Denver has yet to become all was expected of them and how turning a team around in the NBA is not an exact science, and how luck plays a role.

I was going to point out that the Nuggets passed on Amare, but you did it for me. The fact is that they DIDN'T draft him, and so could have the Knicks instead of drafting Nene for Denver (who you somehow failed to mention as part of the Nuggets "magnificent" plan). Andre Miller? Did he help them win? Sure it got them A.I. but how come Zach playing well for us can't be equally or more valuable either to the Knicks on the floor or as trade bait, as Miller who was playing even more below expectations from when he was drafted?

Hey the Camby deal was good, and I'm actually not even saying Kiki sucked. In fact, I think he did fine, but the point is that I don't necessarily see a significant reason Denver's approach is THAT superior to the Knicks, and there are other teams that have tanked and not gotten what they wanted...remember Boston when Duncan was the #1 pick.

And again...Denver has



[Edited by - PresIke on 11-08-2007 5:26 PM]

Posted by MS:

But you have to look at a number of factors when looking at Denver....

He turned Dice into Camby and the number 9 which could have been Amare and a number of other good players

He got rid of a number of horrific deals and had the cap space to go out and get Andre Miller and Kmart it's not a science put the cap space was there to get deals done......

He also had enough pieces in place to make an Iverson trade happen......

Isiah couldn't get Vince Carter, Rasheed Wallace, Kevin Garnett, Gasol, etc no easy feet to get these guys, but

Curry 10 Million (2 lottery picks)
Zach 16 Million (four year max deal)
Q 8 Million (21st pick and a long term deal
Crawford 9 Million (7 year deal, take on JYD longterm deal, Baker favor to Craws Agent)
Marbury 20 Million (4 picks, max deal, max deal for hardaway, euros)

We are a ****ing joke and may not make the playoffs so who in that group didn't Isiah bring in, the man is indept doesn't know real talent, real heart and real players I'm sorry but he overpaid for everyone he got

Baron Davis was had for 10cents on the dollar, Tyson Chandler etc, Iverson, these guys were had for virtually nothing yet isiah gets ****ed in the ass in every deal and we are supposed to be patient because you can't rebuild?

Plain and simple here it is
1. Channing Frye should have been Bynum or Granger (Any if not all people on this sit were for
that)
2. Jerome James and Jared Jefferies should not have been signed (ESPN, CNN, EVERYONE BUT ISIAH)
3. Q deal was horrible should have just held onto Kurt Instead of trading for eddy giving away two lottery picks.
4. No executive in their right mind does the Francis deal, he kills every team he ever went too.....

So if Isiah was just patient your looking and this is nothing crazy this is your team right now.

Bynum, Noah
Lee, Thomas
Granger, Balkman
Crawford, Chandler
Marbury, Collins

With plenty of cap room, nothing there is crazy nothing there is hindsight

MS,

I agree that Isiah is a first degree **** up when it comes to deals that he's either missed the boat on a trade or he totally screwed the organization. But this Zach deal isn't one of them. He's one of the best low-post scorers in the East. Yes he has some faults in his game but he is still a pretty terrific player.

Sorry but that lineup wouldn't be any closer to making the playoffs than this team. You have an upgrade at the small forward position but down grades about both the powerforward and center positions.

Unlike those other guys, Zach is actually a good player.