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Is an edgy Knicks team identity in the works or was it all just an act for Dolan?
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misterearl
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10/24/2007  2:19 PM
Edgy

"Robinson may be slowing down but "Nate being Nate" is very much alive. You can still see him singing during warmups and occasionally spending his pregame routine launching lefthanded three-pointers (he makes most of them). And Robinson, who was suspended 10games last season for fighting Denver's J.R. Smith, has not lost his edge. He and Celtics guard Tony Allen exchanged shoves and insults Monday and both were given technicals."

What better tempo and tone-setters than an "edgy" 5'8 point guard to go along with 3 fearless forwards? The "edgy" 6'9 (Lee+Zach) and an "edgy" 6'7 dreadlocked road runner?

That's 4 key "edgy" dudes right there.

... whatever flaws in Nate's game or approach, he has NEVER been accused of playing with anything less than the intensity of a warrior.
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Bippity10
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10/24/2007  2:20 PM
Allow me to repeat a point that is consistently ignored. If there are so many haters/lovers on the board why is it that when we have prediction threads we all seem to fall in line with each other?
I just hope that people will like me
BlueSeats
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10/24/2007  2:30 PM
misterearl, you talk about basketball being like jazz. One of my favorite jazz stories is about the legendary cannonball adderly.

he was just a college jazz teacher until one night he went to a club where some heavies were playing and he asked to sit-in. naturally they made him wait until the wee hours, and then they thought they'd haze him and trip him up, so they kept shifting keys and tempo to throw him, but he just kept up, adapting and swinging. from that they knew he was a playa, and his career with the big boys was launched.

that's virtuosity. that's what our boys have so much trouble with; getting in the flow, adapting, keeping up, swinging in rhythm, making sweet music.

those days of melodic bebop were the heyday of jazz.

what we've seen from the knicks is more akin to the later, short-lived, dissonant, cacophonic 'free jazz', which was pretty unenjoyable to all but the guys playing it.

[Edited by - blueseats on 10-24-2007 2:37 PM]
misterearl
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10/24/2007  2:43 PM
Mercy, Mercy, Mercy

BlueSeats - you ever notice the more we trade ideas, the more we discover common themes for discussion?

(in 1972 I had the priviledge of seeing Cannonball in person in Washington DC)

I totally agree with your brilliant assertion on the concept of virtuosity. "Getting in the flow, adapting, keeping up, swinging in rhythm, making sweet music." You are indeed basketball jedi, wise one. I bow in your presence.

Those days of bebop may have provided the inspiration for an entire generation of New York City hoops that the 1968 Knicks embodied. THAT is the unselfish sequence of brillliant solos anchored by an irresistible, but changing, rhythm that allowed for 18-1 runs of fancy as the memorable night the Knicks defeated the Bucks in the final minutes.


"what we've seen from the knicks is more akin to the later, shot-lived, dissonant, cacophonic 'free jazz', which was pretty unenjoyable to all but the guys playing it."

My kingdom for the next Elvin Jones or Max Roach to lead the way.
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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10/24/2007  2:46 PM
Misty

BlueSeats - remember when 5 guys would touch the ball, without the pill ever hitting the floor?

Damn, I miss those guys
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BlueSeats
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10/24/2007  3:06 PM
Earl, I never did get to see cannonball, but I sure wish I did. But then I'm a sucker for the alto saxophonists, like charlie parker, benny carter, johnny hodges, etc.

Got to see Benny a couple of times, also Max Roach, at the West End Cafe up by columbia. It was a quartet with the vibraphonist Tiny Grimes. Wish I could remember the other two - I'm sure they were no slouches. Man that was some sweet stuff.
misterearl
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10/24/2007  3:16 PM
My first live introduction was Pharoah Sanders at The Village Vanguard, around the same year Clyde was drafted from Southern Illinois after the NIT.

There HAD to be some connection to the musical impulses in the air around that time. Heck, even Sly and The freakin' Family Stone were re-writing the playbook on the West Coast. But I digress.

The parallel of jazz and beautiful basketball is beyond the casual glance at the stat sheet. It gets to the heart and soul of HOW the game is meant to be played. You mention Charlie Parker and Johnny Hodges but the two feel very different.

Earl Monroe's spin move mirrored the invention of Parker while the steady, and rarely flashy, Dick Barnett reminds me more of Johnny Hodges.

Did I mention the part where my Dad was in the Army with Paul Gonzalves?



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BlueSeats
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10/24/2007  4:36 PM
Posted by misterearl:

My first live introduction was Pharoah Sanders at The Village Vanguard, around the same year Clyde was drafted from Southern Illinois after the NIT.

There HAD to be some connection to the musical impulses in the air around that time. Heck, even Sly and The freakin' Family Stone were re-writing the playbook on the West Coast. But I digress.

The parallel of jazz and beautiful basketball is beyond the casual glance at the stat sheet. It gets to the heart and soul of HOW the game is meant to be played. You mention Charlie Parker and Johnny Hodges but the two feel very different.

Earl Monroe's spin move mirrored the invention of Parker while the steady, and rarely flashy, Dick Barnett reminds me more of Johnny Hodges.

Did I mention the part where my Dad was in the Army with Paul Gonzalves?

Did Gonsalves get to play for the troops That 11 min or so solo of his from, I believe it was live at Newport, is one of the most inspiring passages of music of all times. So muscular, so inventive, so indefatigable. Perhaps reminiscent of Dr J.

Monroe as Parker? Wow, Parker was the savant who broke the mold forever; maybe more of a Bob Cousy than Pearl. I see Monroe as someone who came later, perhaps an influential stylist along the lines of an Eric Dolphy.

Pharoe Sanders... I saw him in downtown in the early 90's. I forget if it was at the Vanguard or Sweet Basil...anyway, wow, what a trip he was. At one point he played a ballad with a passage of about 4 mins of circular beathing. There wasn't the slightest pause for breath, in spite of some notes so low and slow they could barely be heard. All that spirituality, he was the master of tasteful reserve. He was like Clyde - rarely in a hurry, but all soul.

if the early 70's were the era of jazz (we know the late 70's was the era of satin shorts, roller skates, disco and cocaine) that would make this the era of hip hop, and that's why we see so many solo MC's who don't play an instrument, they play with beatboxes, often lacking a clue as to how to mesh with live musicians. It's them on stage pimpin', rocking the crowd, and the rest of the team are just ho' dancers backing them up.
misterearl
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10/24/2007  5:22 PM
"Diminuendo in Blue/ Crescendo in Blue and Orange"

Blueseats - the amazing thing about Duke Ellington, was not his musicianship but the fact he could organize all those cats to show up on time to play in unison.

Gonzalves' 27-chorus solo at Newport put the "e" in epic. "...This is despite the fact after 5 or 6 choruses Gonsalves becomes out of sync with the rhythm section by a whole bar during an attempt at an overly complicated rhythm pattern in his improvising. It is clear from the recording that nobody noticed this until the last few choruses of this mammoth solo"

Kinda sounds like Jamal Crawford on one of his rare 50 point nights.

If the 80's was the era of "me first" and MC's thumpin' their chests to pirated James Brown funky beats, the mid-90's signalled our last gasps of angst over Patrick Ewing missing the finger roll againt the Pacers.

John Coltrane talked about a Love Supreme and soon after Bill Bradley reminded young Knicks players that you don't diss your Black teammates when they are not in the room, just because they were another shade of skin. You stand up for each other.

Coincidence or fact?





[Edited by - misterearl on 10-24-2007 5:23 PM]
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ActionJackson
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10/25/2007  1:04 PM
Hey Earl & Blueseats, I love where you guys have taken this once negative thread but I have to point out that why I do think B-Ball & Jazz share many traits, I actually was making a subtle comparison btwn certain "members" (& I mean that word in exactly the way you probably think I mean it) of this board & jazz critics like Stanley Crouch who are incapable of seeing the "cool" in Miles & Biggie, the ferocity of rhythm in both Max Roach & Dougie Fresh and oddball eccentric genius of both Monk & O.D.B.

Some cling to the past for fear of being left behind. Instead of teaching the youth they shake their canes in vain at the wind and scream "damn, kids, it was so much better in the 50s/60s/70s...blah, blah, blah"

Anyway, I love hearing you two riff on cannonball/Pharoe/Ellington etc. but didn't want my original intent to get lost

misterearl
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10/25/2007  2:59 PM
Action - jump right on in, the water ain't that cold.

when I listen to Tribe Called Quest "Please Listen to my Demo" (Wilson Chandler) or the best of Talib Kweli chanting on "Get By" (Zach Randolph) I hear the possibilities of undiscovered rhythms and melodies that echo the best improvised movements on the basketball court.

If da yoots and elders could listen together, who knows what would spin next? Another iteration of James Brown/Fela or The Mighty Sparrow/Last Poets?

Of course we know the world could be Nas' or Mardy Collins'.

Only time will tell.



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misterearl
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10/25/2007  3:00 PM
I think I'll put on some Keith Jarrett until the madness passes, or the season starts.

whichever comes first
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Panos
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10/25/2007  4:16 PM
Posted by ActionJackson:

Hey Earl & Blueseats, I love where you guys have taken this once negative thread but I have to point out that why I do think B-Ball & Jazz share many traits, I actually was making a subtle comparison btwn certain "members" (& I mean that word in exactly the way you probably think I mean it) of this board & jazz critics like Stanley Crouch who are incapable of seeing the "cool" in Miles & Biggie, the ferocity of rhythm in both Max Roach & Dougie Fresh and oddball eccentric genius of both Monk & O.D.B.

Some cling to the past for fear of being left behind. Instead of teaching the youth they shake their canes in vain at the wind and scream "damn, kids, it was so much better in the 50s/60s/70s...blah, blah, blah"

Anyway, I love hearing you two riff on cannonball/Pharoe/Ellington etc. but didn't want my original intent to get lost



Right Action. The fact that we are going to be a lottery team this year has nothing to do with it.
It's pure nostalgic myopia.

misterearl
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10/25/2007  10:08 PM
panos - just curious. what type of music do you listen to?
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islesfan
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10/25/2007  10:17 PM
Posted by misterearl:

panos - just curious. what type of music do you listen to?

You better say Jazz or else he's gonna say that you're not a real Knicks fan.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
misterearl
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10/26/2007  11:23 AM
Panos - if the Knicks are a lottery team I will disavow any knowledge of ever sitting next to djsu or being associated with The Answer Man (in the always entertaining third person) forever.

I ain't never lied to you, have I?

once a knick always a knick
Is an edgy Knicks team identity in the works or was it all just an act for Dolan?

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