okay, one more for True blue's sake

What I meant was that Isiah took over a collection of Mike Doleacs in 2004 (a HISTORICALLY pathetic roster) and no fan could possibly expect him to have done better than he has. there is absolutely no historical precedence for it. He had no serious trade chips and his only good player (Houston) had a bum knee. So instead of getting mediocre vets, he got young talent to rebuild. In other words, less wins now, but more wins later. As the talent develops the Knicks will be poised to be title contenders in 2-3 years. Fans need to understand the roster that he took over.

PS: No, cap relief means absolutely nothing to the Knicks. Nothing. It means something for 29 OTHER teams that don't have as deep pockets, but not the Knicks.

...good talking with you fellas...

Posted by misterearl:

"Half of what was written wasn't even true,"

Solace - the floor is open to your informed rebuttal. Which half are you referring to?

exactly! I am waiting for the half that was not true. Actually I found the article very factual and fair. The writer pointed out his mistakes and easily could have used the larry brown excuse in the ariza trade, but didn't... So I am waiting to hear the rebuttal.. solace..

Posted by MODI:

okay, one more for True blue's sake

What I meant was that Isiah took over a collection of Mike Doleacs in 2004 (a HISTORICALLY pathetic roster) and no fan could possibly expect him to have done better than he has. there is absolutely no historical precedence for it. He had no serious trade chips and his only good player (Houston) had a bum knee. So instead of getting mediocre vets, he got young talent to rebuild. In other words, less wins now, but more wins later. As the talent develops the Knicks will be poised to be title contenders in 2-3 years. Fans need to understand the roster that he took over.

PS: No, cap relief means absolutely nothing to the Knicks. Nothing. It means something for 29 OTHER teams that don't have as deep pockets, but not the Knicks.

...good talking with you fellas...

real simple

Let the contracts expire and tank.

Any GM could have came in and did what I SAY UGH did without Mercuring the cap beyond Layden level.

Posted by tkf:

I find it funny that half of the people on this site, told me not to take it personal when it came to the Annucha brown verdict. They said the 11.6 mil was not my money...

Yet, guys scream that we had to pay to get guys who actually play for the team, and won't the knicks for sexual harrasment... Geez.. talk about hypocrites...

I find it funny that a ton of Knick fans wanted Anooka not to get a dime and deserved a firing for fibbing on her taxes, not hanging the correct murals at MSG, and requesting too many times for players to participate in fan/team functions but want I SAY UGH and Marbury to continue leading this team producing losing season after losing season while catching cases.


talk about hypocrites


Just so I understand you correctly please specify more clearly what you mean by your second statement that's bolded

Looks like Cosell really liked Mike Lupica.

[Edited by - basketballjones on 10-04-2007 11:38]

Posted by MODI:

Yes, COSSUCKS is right because I'm the author of the articles.

Wow. This thread has ballooned quickly! First, I have to say that I find it suspicious that MODI suddenly joins the board today randomly to let us know his thoughts about the article "he" wrote. One might say that this is a little *too* suspicious and someone is presenting their point of view from two SNs in this thread.

Nontheless, let's talk. I'll address this first:

Posted by MODI:

"A site which claims that Isiah Thomas's "trading record is overwhelmingly positive" is on the brink of being one of the most ridiculous pieces of junk I've ever seen."

Okay then, which one of these trades would you take back? Please be specific.

1) Keith Van Horn becomes David Lee and Mardy Collins (via draft picks obtained in interim Nazi Mohammed trade)
2) Dikembe Mutombo, O. Harrington, & F. Williams become Jamaal Crawford
3) Kurt Thomas becomes Quentin Richardson & Nate Robinson (via draft pick)
4) Antonio Davis becomes Renaldo Balkman (via draft pick acquired with Jalen Rose)

First off, this is intentionalally misleading. Let's start by listing the Knicks trades. Note that people make up their own rules about how they're going to combine trade A and trade B from time to time, however, those rules do not apply.

1) Clarence Weatherspoon for Moochie Norris
Grade: F--
Terrible! Awful. What was Isiah thinking? Weatherspoon is a nice bench player, dominant rebounder. We got pure garbage in return.

2) Antonio McDyess (expiring), Charlie Ward (expiring), Maciej Lampe, Howard Eisley, Milos Vujanic and two first rounders to the Suns for Marbury, Penny and Cesary Trybanski.
Grade: C-
Reasoning: We took on $100 million in salary, extending any possibility to get under the cap out an addition two seasons at the time of trade. Furthermore, at the time Lampe and Vujanic were highly prized and should not just have been throw ins on trades. You don't build around a point guard even if he's great (Marbury was not great). Yet, the Knicks tried this plan and it was the first bad move. Furthermore, we added Marbury after just adding Moochie Norris, who tried to play the same type of game and was absolutely useless a backup to Marbury. This move also gets a knock because Frank Williams was playing exceptional well and proving he could be a starting PG in the NBA. He never got another chance after this move.

3) Keith Van Horn, Michael Doleac, second rounder (or was it two?) for Nazr Mohammed, Tim Thomas
Grade: F
Reasoning: The team was jelling, playing very well, had good chemistry. Mutombo up front was dominant at times. So, our move is with the intention of replacing Van Horn with Thomas (downgrade), and Mutombo with Nazr. I don't consider Nazr a huge upgrade over Doleac, although it is an upgrade. Tim Thomas was an absolute cancer to this team and his mere presence on the team set the team back a year in my estimation. I was one of the few who called this as a bad trade upfront.

4) Dikembe Mutombo, Othella Harrington, Frank Williams, Cesary Trybanski for Jerome Williams, Jamal Crawford
Grade: C
Reasoning: Knicks overpay again in one way or another. It's the story of every trade. Frankie was looking real good, had found a real niche. He was dumped aside. Mutombo was solid as a backup center, he was tossed aside. Jerome Williams was garbage and I called this upfront. Othella Harrington was actually better than Jerome Williams, which is sad. Crawford was a nice young player, but he showed signs of just being a chucker. Then, we overpay by giving him a huge deal which he didn't earn... more cap strapping.

5) Nazr Mohammed for Malik Rose and two late first rounders (#30 and then #29 the next year).
Grade: C
Reasoning: Nazr was solid for us and right now he'd look a hell of a lot better at backup center than Jerome James. Two picks is nice, but these are two late picks and the fact that we got picks was canceled out by the fact that we had a tendancy to give away higher picks. Isiah's drafting has been good, but that's a separate matter.

6) Vin Baker, Moochie Norris, Second Rounder for Mo Taylor
Grade: F--
Reasoning: What in the hell? Mo Taylor is terrible and incredibly overpaid. We gave away shorter contracts for no reason! The second rounder we gave up turned out to be the #32 pick in the draft that we had the #29 (in other words, damn good chance we could've gotten Mardy Collins with the #32). That already canceled out one benefit of the Nazr Mohammed to the Spurs trade.

7) Kurt Thomas for Quentin Richardson, #21 pick (Nate Robinson)
Grade: C-
Reasoning: Here's the other half of the puzzle. We never should've drafted Nate Robinson - we could've easily taken David Lee earlier if he was our guy and that knocks out the assumption that the Nazr trade was the only way we get DLee. That being said, we didn't. This is a good trade if-and-only-if Q is healthy. Q wasn't healthy. 29 NBA teams and many of the fans were aware that Q wasn't healthy. The one that wasn't dealt a starting big man who plays solid defense and brought a lot to the table for Q (who I like) who is always injured and Nate Robinson who all flash and no content. We basically traded Kurt Thomas for a guy who many considered to be a high second rounder, IMHO. Not a great trade. Caveat: If Q ever becomes a healthy player who helps us win, I will revisit this trade and change my view.

8) 2006 first rounder (#2 overall), 2007 first rounder (#9 overall), Two second rounders, Mike Sweetney, Tim Thomas for Eddy Curry, Antonio Davis, Bulls 2007 first rounder (#23 overall)
Grade: D
Reasoning: First, the fact that we left all of these picks unprotected is absolutely ridiculous. Isiah should be fired, alone, for that. If one of those picks turned into Oden, Isiah would've been fired. Too big a risk and Isiah doesn't understand that he's ALLOWED and SUPPOSED to protect picks. Especially when you're getting back a notoriously lazy player with a heart condition who refuses to get tested! Furthermore, if we don't make this trade, there's a decent chance we get Greg Oden, and we likely wind up with Bargnani, Aldridge, Ty Thomas, etc... Mike Sweetney was also a nice piece at the time; unfortunately he couldn't keep his weight under control. Now, getting to Eddy Curry. As I said, his heart condition, his laziness, the fact that he can't rebound, pass or defend with any sort of consistency, means that this was a terrible overpay. We gave him a huge salary (again obliterating cap hopes) and put our franchise for a guy who isn't close to a top 50 NBA player among players currently playing. Putting all of our eggs in this basket was a sad mistake.

9) Trevor Ariza, Penny Hardaway for Steve Francis
Grade: F--
Reasoning: Another boneheaded move. Let's put the "it's Larry Brown's fault" BS aside for this conversation before it starts. Ariza was a nice player to have, athletic, did a lot of nice things. I still would take him on the Knicks in a heartbeat. Penny was expiring. We took on an additional $90 million, counting luxury tax, to bring in Stevie Franchise to try out some experiment with him next to Marbury. Terrible idea, had all of the warning signs, yet we go for it. This was another move that killed all cap hopes.

10) Antonio Davis for Jalen Rose, #20 pick
Grade: C+
Reasoning: The badness of this trade is compounded by an aforementioned blunder. We could've used Penny Hardaway or Tim Thomas in the trade (had we not made the Curry trade) in place of Antonio Davis. The main reason from Toronto's perspective was the cap space brought by the player -- for this they gave up the #20 pick. Furthermore, we took on $34 million for the #20 pick, just to pick a player who we could've easily gotten with the #29 pick.

11) Channing Frye (our star?), Steve Francis for Zach Randolph, Fred Jones, Dan Dickau
Grade: C
Reasoning: Let's start with the small stuff. Dan Dickau would've been a nice piece, but Isiah waived him, so no credit there. I hated Frye, glad he's gone. Despite my dislike of Frye, he had value around the league, especially the previous year. We could've made some sick trades for Frye and passed them up. Instead, we waited too long and got retreads. An unacknowledged cost of this trade was giving up Steve Francis, who had little trade value, but still was a good player who could do something. Furthermore, we took on an extra two years of massive salary in Zach. Finally, although we got a good player in Zach, we get a guy who is legal trouble EVERY year. He's a known misfit. What makes anyone think it'll be different in New York? The Knicks need strong character guys, yet all Isiah targets is the best athletes. This move could work out, which is why I didn't kill the grade, but at the same token, it has as much or maybe more of a chance of completely flunking... just like every other Isiah move.

Disagree with my rankings? The proof is in the pudding, boys. The Knicks were bad when Isiah took over, they got even worse for a while, they're still very bad.

Isiah will get credit when he shows some results. Until then, he's completed sucked as GM (I think he's done a fair job as coach, though).

Posted by Solace:

Wow. This thread has ballooned quickly! First, I have to say that I find it suspicious that MODI suddenly joins the board today randomly to let us know his thoughts about the article "he" wrote. One might say that this is a little *too* suspicious and someone is presenting their point of view from two SNs in this thread.

You know you are a man of definitive convictions right?
You believe what you say 100% and wouldnt say something of you did not believe was true right?

Well considering you are telling people to believe that I'm indeed Modi and this is my personal website then I say we place a $1000 bet right here and now. We can do it via a paypal escrow account and give permission to Martin/Andrew to prove who is telling the truth you or me.

So is it a bet? After all you wouldnt say something that wasnt true right?

[Edited by - COSSUCKS on 10-04-2007 12:04 PM]

Posted by COSSUCKS:

Posted by Solace:

Wow. This thread has ballooned quickly! First, I have to say that I find it suspicious that MODI suddenly joins the board today randomly to let us know his thoughts about the article "he" wrote. One might say that this is a little *too* suspicious and someone is presenting their point of view from two SNs in this thread.

You know you are a man of definitive convictions right?
You believe what you say 100% and wouldnt say something of you did not believe was true right?

Well considering you are telling people to believe that I'm indeed Modi and this is my personal website then I say we place a $1000 bet right here and now. We can do it via a paypal escrow account and give permission to Martin/Andrew to prove who is telling the truth you or me.

So is it a bet? After all you wouldnt say something that wasnt true right?

Whatever dude. I said it was suspicious. Don't have a cow. Frankly, I don't care what Martin and Andrew could find, even via an IP check. Most people have access to multiple IPs and everyone has access to multiple emails. There's no amazement here. Not interested in a loaded bet. Either you're him or you're friends, because it seems too random that he signs up just to post on this thread. Furthermore, it seems extremely odd that you and him both have very similar names. Since there's no real way for you to prove it one way or another (other than by telling the truth and me taking your word), I'll simply rely on Ockham's razor.

Posted by BasketballJones:

But MODI thinks Cosell is great, and COSSUCKS thinks he sucks.

I don't recall seeing COSSUCKS explaining what his name meant. It would be pointless to ask him at this stage.

Solace - the Real GM meeting is down the hall.

MODI defined player transactions as a body of work, for their cumulative effect instead of the one-at-a-time approach which you seem bent on repeating.

The arbitrary individual grades do not help to define the relative merit of any deal as the Knicks roster is a work in progress.

If you really want Othella Harrington back, you can have him.