[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

OT: So who are we fighting exactly in Iraq and afganistan?
Author Thread
dodger78
Posts: 20911
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 6/7/2002
Member: #250
Germany
9/16/2007  4:10 PM
Seriously all I am trying to tell you (even though I reallize, that you will not understand!) is that those WMD are not the reason why Bush started this war!!! Period!!!
I know that Sadam used gas against kurds in north iraq and in Gulf 1!!! The WMD that where put upfront for this war where just not the true reason!!! And the WMD that have been SOLD to the public where nuclear!! You know it I know it!!!
AUTOADVERT
COSSUCKS
Posts: 20984
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 6/15/2007
Member: #1569

9/16/2007  4:30 PM
Great reasoning Dodger. Your view is because we havent found the wmds (even though we have found evidence) that they never existed.

Hmmm we havent found Bin Ladin or Jimmy Hoffa either. Does that mean they never existed?

Anyway for the 3rd time I will say I did not want to go in to Iraq nor do I want to be there now. If we wanted to kill Saddam we should have just been selfish and bombed him in to oblivion and not risked our ground force at all. Or we could have done nothing like what Bonn and Dodger would have done. Just let Saddam continue to Murder, Rape, and Brutalize millions of Iraqis like a mini Hitler.

dodger78
Posts: 20911
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 6/7/2002
Member: #250
Germany
9/16/2007  4:30 PM
Okay like I said... you dont get it but one last time ...
Neither Sadams crimes nor WMD have been the reason for this war!
And that has been the question of this thread initially...
COSSUCKS
Posts: 20984
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 6/15/2007
Member: #1569

9/16/2007  4:39 PM
Posted by dodger78:

Okay like I said... you dont get it but one last time ...
Neither Sadams crimes nor WMD have been the reason for this war!
And that has been the question of this thread initially...

Thats your opinion. America coming out of 9-11 had to look at all threats. I have no doubt in my mind that Saddam had a wmd program. I have no doubt in my mind Saddam repeatedly ignored the UN sanctions and truce agreement he signed. The question never was if Saddam was repeatedly ignoring the WMD parts of the treaty. It is a fact he did. The question was only how should he be punished.

I selfishly wish we never went to Iraq. I selfishly never wanted to risk American ground forces lives to remove Saddam.

I'm done debating this since I'm debating a war that I did not want to be in. We should have just killed Saddam and the terrorists he harbored covertly if possible.
dodger78
Posts: 20911
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 6/7/2002
Member: #250
Germany
9/16/2007  4:42 PM
Posted by COSSUCKS:
Posted by dodger78:

Okay like I said... you dont get it but one last time ...
Neither Sadams crimes nor WMD have been the reason for this war!
And that has been the question of this thread initially...

Thats your opinion. America coming out of 9-11 had to look at all threats. I have no doubt in my mind that Saddam had a wmd program. I have no doubt in my mind Saddam repeatedly ignored the UN sanctions and truce agreement he signed. The question never was if Saddam was repeatedly ignoring the WMD parts of the treaty. It is a fact he did. The question was only how should he be punished.

I selfishly wish we never went to Iraq. I selfishly never wanted to risk American ground forces lives to remove Saddam.

I'm done debating this since I'm debating a war that I did not want to be in. We should have just killed Saddam and the terrorists he harbored covertly if possible.

Seriously Cossucks, I agree with you on this one!!!
Have a good night, Ill be out! Got some writing to do...
simrud
Posts: 23392
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/13/2003
Member: #474
USA
9/16/2007  9:55 PM
We went to war in Iraq for two main reasons. To punish Saddam for turning on us after we supplied him with weapons during the Iraq-Iran war, and to prevent him from switching oil contracts to European (French and German mainly) and Russian firms.

There were several special interest groups who pushed for the war. Oil companies who were going to loose contracts, military companies who stood to make money on the war. More importantly the Saudi lobby was pushing for this very hard because Saddam was an enemy and they also believed that the war would drive the oil prices up somewhat, not too much for oil to loose market share, but enough for them to make more money.

From the three forces that drove the decision to enter Iraq, the only one I consider legitimate is punishing Saddam for turning on us after accepting out military aid back in the day. The Saudi lobby and the oil/military lobby's reasons for the war clearly are not good for the American public in general.

What we should have done is bomb the crap out of Iraq, and never set foot in that country. Nation building never works. This war is different from Vietnam because in Vietnam we had genuine allies. In Iraq nobody is really on our side. They all hate Americans, they did before the war, and they do so even more now. I seriously doubt that Democracy and Capitalism are a viable option for an Arab country. The vast majority of Iraq, and really most other Arab countries want a Muslim state. To which I say fine, that is their choice. Let just stay away and not even touch them with a 10 foot pole.

Now we are stuck in there, and only hope seems to be to spread the Anbar model of buying local support one local tribal chief at a time. But after we leave the situation will quickly become that of Afghanistan, where the country is ruled by local warlords. At this point, that seems like the only viable solution left.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
misterearl
Posts: 38786
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/16/2004
Member: #799
USA
9/17/2007  9:06 AM
Filed at 7:21 a.m. ET

BAGHDAD (AP) -- The Interior Ministry said Monday that it was pulling the license of an American security firm allegedly involved in the fatal shooting of civilians during an attack on a U.S. State Department motorcade in Baghdad.

The ministry said it would prosecute any foreign contractors found to have used excessive force in the Sunday incident.

Interior Ministry spokesman Abdul-Karim Khalaf said eight people were killed and 13 were wounded when security contractors working for Blackwater USA opened fire in a predominantly Sunni neighborhood of western Baghdad.

''We have canceled the license of Blackwater and prevented them from working all over Iraqi territory. We will also refer those involved to Iraqi judicial authorities,'' Khalaf said.

Blackwater, based in North Carolina, provides security for many U.S. civilian operations in the country. Phone messages left early Monday at Blackwater's office in North Carolina and with a company spokeswoman were not immediately returned.

The wartime numbers of private guards are unprecedented -- as are their duties, many of which have traditionally been done by soldiers. They protect U.S. military operations and have guarded high-ranking officials including Gen. David Petraeus, the U.S. commander in Baghdad.

They also protect journalists, visiting foreign officials and thousands of construction projects.
once a knick always a knick
arkrud
Posts: 32217
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
USA
9/17/2007  9:27 AM
Posted by misterearl:

Filed at 7:21 a.m. ET

BAGHDAD (AP) -- The Interior Ministry said Monday that it was pulling the license of an American security firm allegedly involved in the fatal shooting of civilians during an attack on a U.S. State Department motorcade in Baghdad.

The ministry said it would prosecute any foreign contractors found to have used excessive force in the Sunday incident.

Interior Ministry spokesman Abdul-Karim Khalaf said eight people were killed and 13 were wounded when security contractors working for Blackwater USA opened fire in a predominantly Sunni neighborhood of western Baghdad.

''We have canceled the license of Blackwater and prevented them from working all over Iraqi territory. We will also refer those involved to Iraqi judicial authorities,'' Khalaf said.

Blackwater, based in North Carolina, provides security for many U.S. civilian operations in the country. Phone messages left early Monday at Blackwater's office in North Carolina and with a company spokeswoman were not immediately returned.

The wartime numbers of private guards are unprecedented -- as are their duties, many of which have traditionally been done by soldiers. They protect U.S. military operations and have guarded high-ranking officials including Gen. David Petraeus, the U.S. commander in Baghdad.

They also protect journalists, visiting foreign officials and thousands of construction projects.

"Yes we always been... The Soldiers of Fortune"
There are 50000 security contractors currently “working” in Iraq. Why not to hire another 100000 and withdraw the troops? US Army can still provide Air and logistics support but the occupation will be financed by companies which directly profited from the war. This will be fair for American people.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Silverfuel
Posts: 31751
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 6/27/2002
Member: #268
USA
9/17/2007  10:00 AM
Posted by COSSUCKS:

We should have just killed Saddam and the terrorists he harbored covertly if possible.
Exactly! 99% of the people out there have a problem with the occupation only. If we had just gone in and killed Saddam and left, there wouldn't be a huge outcry. If that was their goal, people would find it very noble and to some extent, selfless. If Bush (Rove and Cheney) deployed the army, killed Saddam and whatever terrorists there were and brought the soldiers home, we would cheer this war like we cheered most of the other wars.

The general public has a problem with our occupation which is taking American lives and tax money and only benefiting Halliburton and big Oil. The occupation is paving the way for new highs in corruption where $9 billion in cash can go missing. I have read soldiers post on blogs and many forums complaining about the role they are being asked to play. Please don't confuse this for questioning the soldiers. I think being a soldier is the most honorable thing to do. It takes courage, selflessness and high moral character. The soldiers only follow orders, they don't make the decisions. I am questioning the decision makers, mainly Bush/Rove and Cheney.

Like you said, if we had gone into Iraq to just destroy the threat to America, we wouldn't hear the public outcry. The issue is with the 4+ years of occupation which reeks of greed and personal agenda from the politicians.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
arkrud
Posts: 32217
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
USA
9/17/2007  10:24 AM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by COSSUCKS:

We should have just killed Saddam and the terrorists he harbored covertly if possible.
Exactly! 99% of the people out there have a problem with the occupation only. If we had just gone in and killed Saddam and left, there wouldn't be a huge outcry. If that was their goal, people would find it very noble and to some extent, selfless. If Bush (Rove and Cheney) deployed the army, killed Saddam and whatever terrorists there were and brought the soldiers home, we would cheer this war like we cheered most of the other wars.

The general public has a problem with our occupation which is taking American lives and tax money and only benefiting Halliburton and big Oil. The occupation is paving the way for new highs in corruption where $9 billion in cash can go missing. I have read soldiers post on blogs and many forums complaining about the role they are being asked to play. Please don't confuse this for questioning the soldiers. I think being a soldier is the most honorable thing to do. It takes courage, selflessness and high moral character. The soldiers only follow orders, they don't make the decisions. I am questioning the decision makers, mainly Bush/Rove and Cheney.

Like you said, if we had gone into Iraq to just destroy the threat to America, we wouldn't hear the public outcry. The issue is with the 4+ years of occupation which reeks of greed and personal agenda from the politicians.

Great post. Just on point.
The problem is - now we stuck in this mess with old Vietnam syndrome. If we withdraw we will be losers and Osama the winner.
This was keeping us fighting in Vietnam and this was keeping Soviets fighting in Afghanistan for long disgraceful years.
Do we like Americans have courage to admit our mistakes?
Soviets never did and where they are? Gone...







"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Stevo718
Posts: 20456
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/21/2004
Member: #559
9/17/2007  10:49 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Stevo718:

Okay bottom line who is really responsible for the war? YOU AND ME.

That's right... every single american that leaves their tv on and lights on and drives Hummers and SUV's and blasts AC when it's 80 degrees outside. C'mon let's face it we WASTE and WASTE and WASTE.

Who here is willing to give up their SUV's for smaller cars or even walk or bike to work? Who here is willing to turn on a fan instead of blasting their AC? Who here is willing to spend the extra money on solar powered roofing for their homes? Who here is willing to walk to the 7-11, two blocks down the street instead of taking their car? Who here is willing to make a dramatic change in their lives and change their lifestyle and comfort levels?

Let's face it as bad as war is Bush has no choice, oil will run out one day so even if we have other sources in other countries or even reserves their will come a day when it will run out and we can't just wait till then to do something about it. Don't get me wrong, there are many corporations and people making a killing off this war but we really don't have a choice either.

So how many Americans are willing to give up their lifestyle so that we won't have to do things like go to war with Iraq?
Let me ask a question (b/c you might know more about this than I do): If it's about oil, why did more countries not join us in this war effort? Surely many other countries that could have joined us have the same oil interests we have.

No other country has such immense needs for oil as we do... China soon might consume as much resources as we do... that is another reason for controlling the oil, because if we control the oil we also control/slow down China's development.

And why didn't more countries join our war effort? Because they would gain no piece of control over that region anyway, do you think the US would spend hundreds of billions of dollars on the war to have a country come in with a hundred troops or so and spend like $20 million dollars and let that country have any say whatsoever? Who is gonna eat first?

And another reason more countries did not join us is because nowadays nations have their corporations to spread their interests in other countries, but we resorted to some old school tactics... WAR!

When your country has to resort to lying to the people and making fabrications and just openly being a bully without so much as a solid concrete reason or can't even be covert about it then you know your country is going downhill. When the major reason you are on top of the world is because of your economic powers and not necessarily the intelligence and ingenuity of your people anymore than you are at the start of your decline.

Man I love this country but we just ain't hungry anymore.
Stevo718
Posts: 20456
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/21/2004
Member: #559
9/17/2007  10:57 PM
Posted by arkrud:
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by COSSUCKS:

We should have just killed Saddam and the terrorists he harbored covertly if possible.
Exactly! 99% of the people out there have a problem with the occupation only. If we had just gone in and killed Saddam and left, there wouldn't be a huge outcry. If that was their goal, people would find it very noble and to some extent, selfless. If Bush (Rove and Cheney) deployed the army, killed Saddam and whatever terrorists there were and brought the soldiers home, we would cheer this war like we cheered most of the other wars.

The general public has a problem with our occupation which is taking American lives and tax money and only benefiting Halliburton and big Oil. The occupation is paving the way for new highs in corruption where $9 billion in cash can go missing. I have read soldiers post on blogs and many forums complaining about the role they are being asked to play. Please don't confuse this for questioning the soldiers. I think being a soldier is the most honorable thing to do. It takes courage, selflessness and high moral character. The soldiers only follow orders, they don't make the decisions. I am questioning the decision makers, mainly Bush/Rove and Cheney.

Like you said, if we had gone into Iraq to just destroy the threat to America, we wouldn't hear the public outcry. The issue is with the 4+ years of occupation which reeks of greed and personal agenda from the politicians.

Great post. Just on point.
The problem is - now we stuck in this mess with old Vietnam syndrome. If we withdraw we will be losers and Osama the winner.
This was keeping us fighting in Vietnam and this was keeping Soviets fighting in Afghanistan for long disgraceful years.
Do we like Americans have courage to admit our mistakes?
Soviets never did and where they are? Gone...





No way that would ever happen. After bombing a country the infrastructure collapses, then there would be a scramble for power. Would the successor be as bad as Saddam? Maybe not... probably not... would he do everything the US would tell him to do? Probably not... remember muslims disagree with us on a lot of issues. So what would be the point to attack and leave? The hope that the new leader would be USA friendly and let us tell them what they should do with their oil? If the US did things like this on a global scale we would cease being a superpower. Besides the US doesn't want a slice they want the whole pie.
COSSUCKS
Posts: 20984
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 6/15/2007
Member: #1569

9/18/2007  12:54 AM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by COSSUCKS:

We should have just killed Saddam and the terrorists he harbored covertly if possible.
Exactly! 99% of the people out there have a problem with the occupation only. If we had just gone in and killed Saddam and left, there wouldn't be a huge outcry. If that was their goal, people would find it very noble and to some extent, selfless. If Bush (Rove and Cheney) deployed the army, killed Saddam and whatever terrorists there were and brought the soldiers home, we would cheer this war like we cheered most of the other wars.

The general public has a problem with our occupation which is taking American lives and tax money and only benefiting Halliburton and big Oil. The occupation is paving the way for new highs in corruption where $9 billion in cash can go missing. I have read soldiers post on blogs and many forums complaining about the role they are being asked to play. Please don't confuse this for questioning the soldiers. I think being a soldier is the most honorable thing to do. It takes courage, selflessness and high moral character. The soldiers only follow orders, they don't make the decisions. I am questioning the decision makers, mainly Bush/Rove and Cheney.

Like you said, if we had gone into Iraq to just destroy the threat to America, we wouldn't hear the public outcry. The issue is with the 4+ years of occupation which reeks of greed and personal agenda from the politicians.

I said covertly if possible. We cant just go bomb a country not even knowing for sure where Saddam is and then leave for them to clean up the mess on their own. The world media propaganda would hammer us for that.
I will probably get bashed for this but I would be all for covert intelligence agencies that are basically secret hit squads for our biggest threats in the world. I'm talking the cia, osi/oss, isr combined times 1000. A program that congress did not fund or know about. Guys that have the best training and intelligence possible to go in and when possible take out the maggots of the world. Guys that have no backgrounds and are untraceable. Back in 1992 I interviewed for an intelligence agency thinking it would be like James Bond stuff. After seeing the reality it wasnt nearly as exciting so I decided not to continue with the process. They wanted me to live in the mid east for 2 years and basically run economic models. No killing. No big time spy missions. No hot babes. Just economic intelligence gathering, lol. What a let down.

[Edited by - COSSUCKS on 09-18-2007 12:57 AM]
Stevo718
Posts: 20456
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/21/2004
Member: #559
9/18/2007  4:31 PM
Cossuck you sound like a decent guy but you can't accept the USA media blindly... you can't eat everything it feeds ya man. Almost 100% of the US media is controlled by a HANDFUL of companies... meaning what we all see and hear is manipulated by a few powerful men. Think about that.

Do you keep up with news and events? If I told you there have been 2 seperate events in the last 25 years that have claimed 1 million and 5 million lives could you name them? I mean 1 million and 5 million lives, EVERYONE should know about these 2 events due to the sheer numbers, but if you ask the average American they do not know. If 20 people die in the USA at once it is in the news for a month.

I will give you a hint... one was a genocide and one was a war. Does anyone know?
arkrud
Posts: 32217
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
USA
9/18/2007  4:54 PM
Posted by Stevo718:

Cossuck you sound like a decent guy but you can't accept the USA media blindly... you can't eat everything it feeds ya man. Almost 100% of the US media is controlled by a HANDFUL of companies... meaning what we all see and hear is manipulated by a few powerful men. Think about that.

Do you keep up with news and events? If I told you there have been 2 seperate events in the last 25 years that have claimed 1 million and 5 million lives could you name them? I mean 1 million and 5 million lives, EVERYONE should know about these 2 events due to the sheer numbers, but if you ask the average American they do not know. If 20 people die in the USA at once it is in the news for a month.

I will give you a hint... one was a genocide and one was a war. Does anyone know?

Rwandan genocide in 1994 about 1 mil people
Cambodia war/genocide, Iraq-Iran, Russia-Afranistan, Darfur - all about 1-2 million.
I cannot recall 5 mil died in WAR last 25 years...


"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Stevo718
Posts: 20456
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/21/2004
Member: #559
9/19/2007  6:25 PM
Arkrud you know your stuff...

one you missed was the Second Congo War, involving 8 nations and about 3.8 million deaths, mostly from starvation and disease.
arkrud
Posts: 32217
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
USA
9/20/2007  6:33 AM
Posted by Stevo718:

Arkrud you know your stuff...

one you missed was the Second Congo War, involving 8 nations and about 3.8 million deaths, mostly from starvation and disease.

Yep
And US-Iraq war is close to kill 1 mil of Iraqies

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
COSSUCKS
Posts: 20984
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 6/15/2007
Member: #1569

9/20/2007  9:45 AM
Posted by arkrud:
Posted by Stevo718:

Arkrud you know your stuff...

one you missed was the Second Congo War, involving 8 nations and about 3.8 million deaths, mostly from starvation and disease.

Yep
And US-Iraq war is close to kill 1 mil of Iraqies

1 mill? Where did you get that number?
Silverfuel
Posts: 31751
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 6/27/2002
Member: #268
USA
9/20/2007  10:24 AM
Posted by COSSUCKS:

1 mill? Where did you get that number?
http://www.inteldaily.com/?c=144&a=3566
A deafening silence on report of one million Iraqis killed under US occupation
By Patrick Martin -- http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/sep2007/orb2-s17.shtml

Mon, 17 Sep 2007 08:29:00

When those responsible for the American war in Iraq face a public reckoning for their colossal crimes, the weekend of September 15-16, 2007 will be an important piece of evidence against them. On Friday, September 14 there were brief press reports of a scientific survey by the British polling organization ORB, which resulted in an estimate of 1.2 million violent deaths in Iraq since the US invasion.

This staggering figure demonstrates two political facts: 1) the American war in Iraq has produced a humanitarian catastrophe of historic proportions, with a death total already higher than that in Rwanda in 1994; 2) those arguing against a US withdrawal on the grounds that this would lead to civil war, even genocide, are deliberately concealing the fact that such a bloodbath is already taking place, with the US military in control.

The reaction to the ORB report in the US political and media establishment was virtual silence. After scattered newspaper reports Friday, there was no coverage on the Friday evening television newscasts or on the cable television news stations. There was no comment from the Bush White House, the Pentagon, or the State Department, and not a single Republican or Democratic presidential candidate or congressional leader made an issue of it. On the Sunday morning talk shows on all four broadcast networks the subject was not raised.

This was not because those involved were unaware of the study, which received wide circulation on the Internet and was prominently reported in the British daily press. Nor was there any serious challenge to the validity of the study’s findings.

Opinion Research Business (ORB), founded by the former head of British operations for the Gallup polling organization, is a well-established commercial polling firm. It gave a detailed technical description of the methods used to make a scientific random sample.

Six months ago, by contrast, an ORB survey in Iraq was hailed by the White House because some of its findings could be given a positive spin in administration propaganda. That survey, conducted in February and made public March 18 in the Sunday Times of London, found that only 27 percent of Iraqis believed their country was in a state of civil war and that a majority supported the Maliki government and the US military “surge,” and believed life was getting better in their country.

That survey also reported figures on violence that largely dovetail with those of the survey conducted in August and reported last Friday, including 79 percent of Baghdad residents experiencing either a violent death or kidnapping in their immediate family or workplace. But its findings of Iraqi political opinions—not the figures on deaths—were given headline treatment in the US press, with articles in the Washington Post, the Christian Science Monitor and other national media outlets.

White House press spokesman Tony Snow cited the ORB poll at a March 23 news briefing, when he used its findings to rebut the results of a poll of Iraqis by ABC News, the British Broadcasting Corporation, the German ARD network and USA Today newspaper. Asked about the ABC poll’s finding that Iraqis were more pessimistic about the future, Snow declared, “there was also a British poll at the same time that had almost diametrically opposed results.” He added that the British poll had “twice the sample” of the ABC poll, and should therefore be considered more authoritative.

The March ORB poll was widely hailed in the far-right media, including Fox News Network. The right-wing magazine National Review declared, “Supporters of Operation Iraqi Freedom will be buoyed by a new poll of Iraqis showing high levels of support for the Baghdad security plan and the elected government implementing it.”

The latest ORB poll, focusing on the enormous death toll produced by the US invasion, has received no such positive reception at the White House. There is, of course, ample reason for such hostility. The figures reported by ORB undermine Bush administration claims that its goal in Iraq is to “liberate” the Iraqi people from tyranny and terrorism, or to defend “freedom and democracy.”

The real motivation for the war was spelled out by former Federal Reserve Board chairman Alan Greenspan in a newly published book of memoirs, in which he wrote, “Whatever their publicized angst over Saddam Hussein’s ‘weapons of mass destruction,’ American and British authorities were also concerned about violence in an area that harbors a resource indispensable for the functioning of the world economy. I’m saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: The Iraq war is largely about oil.”

Equally significant is the silence from congressional Democrats and the Democratic presidential candidates, all of whom claim to be opposed to the Iraq war. This antiwar posturing, however, has nothing in common with genuine compassion for the plight of the Iraqi people or principled opposition to the predatory interests of American imperialism in the oil-rich country.

The Democrats oppose the Bush administration’s conduct of the war, not because it has been a bloody and criminal operation, but because it has been mismanaged and unsuccessful in accomplishing the goal of plundering Iraq’s oil resources and strengthening the strategic position of US imperialism in the Middle East.

The Democrats do not want to highlight the massive scale of the bloodbath in Iraq, as suggested by the ORB survey, because they share political responsibility for the war, from the vote to authorize the use of force in October 2002, to the repeated congressional passage of bills to fund the war, at a total cost of more than $600 billion. In any war crimes trial over the near-genocide in Iraq, leading Democrats would take their place in the dock, second only to the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld war cabal.

Appearing on NBC’s “Meet the Press” program Sunday, the 2004 Democratic presidential candidate, Senator John Kerry, denounced suggestions that congressional Democrats would allow the United States to be defeated in Iraq. He criticized the Bush administration’s conduct of the war on the ground that it had weakened US national security interests, particularly in relation to Iran.

“We’re not talking about abandoning Iraq,” Kerry said. “We’re talking about changing the mission and adjusting the mission so that the bulkier combat troops are withdrawn, ultimately, within a year, but that you are continuing to provide the basic backstop support necessary to finish the training, so they stand up on their own, and you are continuing to chase Al Qaeda.”

Kerry made it clear that he advocated a more aggressive, not less aggressive, policy in the Middle East. “We need to get out of Iraq in order to be stronger to deal with Iran,” he said, “in order to deal with Hezbollah and Hamas, to regain our credibility in the region. And I believe, very deeply, they understand power.”

When “Meet the Press” host Tim Russert pressed Kerry on the refusal of the Democrats to force the White House to stop the war by cutting off funding, Kerry evaded the question, claiming—falsely—that such action would require 67 votes in the Senate to override a presidential veto. The supposed 67-vote hurdle is an obstacle deliberately conjured up by the congressional Democrats, in order to play their double game of publicly posturing as opponents of the war while allowing the Bush administration to continue waging it.

Kerry continued: “I will fund the troops to protect the national security interests of America, to accomplish a mission that increases our national security and protects the troops themselves. We are not proposing failure...”

What does the pursuit of “success” mean in the context of the reports of 1.2 million violent deaths in Iraq since the US invasion and occupation? It means the devastation of that country will continue until the American and international working class intervenes to put an end to it.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
COSSUCKS
Posts: 20984
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 6/15/2007
Member: #1569

9/20/2007  10:43 AM
That number is about 10-12 times what the United Nations number is so I find it extremely doubtful.

OT: So who are we fighting exactly in Iraq and afganistan?

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy