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RemBee76
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7/10/2007  11:42 AM
Posted by MS:

He has down a bad job there, but you have to look at Reggie retiring, Jermaine O'Neal was actually healthy, Artest hadn't gone nuts yet, and steven jackson wasn't starting shoot outs and going ape **** with artest into the stands.

Point out adverse events that were as significant, if not more, for Isiah and you are dismissed as coming up with "excuses" or being a "spin doctor".

What about Allan Houston's retirement? Injuries to Crawford, Lee, and Marbury at the end of last year? Larry Brown going nuts? How about the fact that our team emerged from its highly televised fight as a stronger and better team? How about the fact that Isiah didn't inherit 1/5 of the assets Bird did?

Isiah trades some first rounders for a 19.5 ppg center he is universally derided in the press. Bird trades some first rounders for Al Harrington who he then couples with Steven Jackson for freakin’ Troy Murphy and Dunleavy and....silence.

nah, Isiah is the worst GM in the league...heck, the worst GM in decades.
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
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djsunyc
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7/10/2007  11:44 AM
Posted by RemBee76:

nah, Isiah is the worst GM in the league...heck, the worst GM in decades.

rembee has joined the darkside...





[Edited by - djsunyc on 07-10-2007 11:44 AM]
TrueBlue
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7/10/2007  11:44 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by MS:

He has down a bad job there, but you have to look at Reggie retiring, Jermaine O'Neal was actually healthy, Artest hadn't gone nuts yet, and steven jackson wasn't starting shoot outs and going ape **** with artest into the stands.

GMs that rival isiah are McChale, Knight, Baylor, King, Ainge

And he didn't spend about half a billion dollars in future salary.

And he didn't give up 4 unprotected first round draft picks and trade away a lottery pick and miss the playoffs every yr after his first season
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
RemBee76
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7/10/2007  11:48 AM
Sorry, dj, I missed your point in there.

Anything I said you disagree with?
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
djsunyc
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7/10/2007  11:51 AM
Posted by RemBee76:

Sorry, dj, I missed your point in there.

Anything I said you disagree with?

did you not say the following?

"nah, Isiah is the worst GM in the league...heck, the worst GM in decades."

now, totally ignoring context, you did say those words and they are fit to be quoted.

ladies and gentlemen, rembee's a hater. islesfan and trueblue, you got a new running buddy!!!
MS
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7/10/2007  11:58 AM
Well when you factor in the following

1. Took on 60 million in Marbury's salary, another 40 for the the right to get him, while including two first round selection and future draft picks to get a pg that hasn't delievered one playoff victory

2. Bid against himself and then gave crawford a 7 year deal and took on JYD's terrible contract, and as a favor to his agent after he overpayed his client, he signed baker.

3. He gave up two lottery selections for on dimensional center.

4. He gave flexibility to Orlando, Toronto, Chicago all teams that made major signgings that will keep them ahead of us in the playoffs.

5. Traded for Mo Taylor, Malik Rose, Jalen Rose, Steve Francis no of which helped produced anything in the win column.

6. Used midlevels and signed players to 5 year deals, and included a trade kicker to get jefferies the worst starter in the league making him untradeable. 10 million invested in two players for 6.9pts 5.8rbs between them.

7. Sexually harrassed employees, players he brought in did the same, got the knicks off of national tv when they occupy the biggest tv market in the country.

8. Made a series of trades which were looked at by stupid knicks fans as great move because he acquired picks 29 and 30 while adding a players long term deal, taking up a roster spot and doubling our cap room. When portland bought two picks this year with no ramifications against the cap.......


So Isiah has spent and cost the knicks close to 300 million dollars, he has gone through 4 coaches in three years, most gms don't like him and only deal with him when he takes on bad contracts or gives away picks. He has embarrassed the franchise and we have won 33, 23, 33 games in the past three seasons.

But the knicks have a good chance at the 8th seed with a 125 million dollar payroll the highest in the league kudos to Isiah and anyone dumb enough to salute the job he is doing because he got a few nice talents that would have been taken in the second round in collins, balkman, chandler, nicholas and Lee the only shinning achievement in his team here.
nyk4ever
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7/10/2007  11:59 AM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by nyk4ever:
So Phil Jackson stopped playing a 19 year old kid as the playoffs came closer - what a revelation, that NEVER happens in the NBA. I mean you never see that.

You have another example of a young player a team is supposedly trying to develop getting his minutes cut by more than half two months before the playoffs? I'm all ears. And no examples invlolving Larry Brown.

Top young players get tested in the playoffs all the time, its the best place to find out what you really have. Could just be that the Lakers no longer consider Bynum a top young player.

How many coaches are as demanding and demand such things as Jackson does out his centers? It's a whole different ball game when you're a big man for the Lakers since you're playing in the triangle offense and when you're playing with a player such as Kobe. Phil didn't like Bynums's below average passing and turnovers so he cut his minutes. This isn't out of the ordinary for young big men who come into the NBA without going to college, they've never had to pass the ball in high-school, they just got the ball and overpowered the competition. Difference between Bynum and Frye is that Frye went to college for 4 years and still had all kinds of limitations, Bynum didnt.

Another factor into his minute decerease was because Kwame Brown came back from injury and is a much more experienced player AND a guy that Phil Jackson was instrumental in bringing to the team. I think Phils going to go with Kwame there.


[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07-10-2007 12:01 PM]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Nalod
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7/10/2007  12:06 PM

Frye was drafted to be a center.

The question of What Isiah does is answered with the win totals since he got here. He has turned this roster over like 3 times now and the results are what they are.

But the open question is could he have been more creative and used all those trade assets in a better manner?

I think NYK and its fans are too short term oriented and cannot stand by a rebuild such as had portland which sustained one .500, and then 3 deeply losing years to let the Jailblazers go and rebuild with youth. The Bulls needed 6 seasons after its 62 win season. The first time they did not get it right and FIRED the GM who had a pretty good track record up until then.

I stand to think that had Layden been left alone to undo the mess he and his previous GMs had created I think by now we could be looking at some pretty good assets either thru lottery picks, trades and Free agents.

rewriting that history is a large task as its hard to reconstruct too many what-ifs, but a rebuild with Dolans money might have been a wonderful thing.

A dead Garden might have been in the cards for us and that panicked Dolan.

It is what it is. ZEddy is now our power front line and I suppose we can ponder the what-ifs until the season starts and we see what we have.
RemBee76
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7/10/2007  12:08 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
I think Phils going to go with Kwame there.


[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07-10-2007 12:01 PM]

So you disagree that the Lakers are no longer high on Bynum, but you admit that they are going with Kwame Brown instead.

My work here is done.

Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
islesfan
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7/10/2007  12:09 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by MS:

He has down a bad job there, but you have to look at Reggie retiring, Jermaine O'Neal was actually healthy, Artest hadn't gone nuts yet, and steven jackson wasn't starting shoot outs and going ape **** with artest into the stands.

GMs that rival isiah are McChale, Knight, Baylor, King, Ainge

And he didn't spend about half a billion dollars in future salary.

And he didn't give up 4 unprotected first round draft picks and trade away a lottery pick and miss the playoffs every yr after his first season

But it's ok since Bird hasn't done well but still has his job.

No matter how badly Isiah has done, he should always have his job if another bad GM still has his.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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7/10/2007  12:09 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by RemBee76:

Sorry, dj, I missed your point in there.

Anything I said you disagree with?

did you not say the following?

"nah, Isiah is the worst GM in the league...heck, the worst GM in decades."

now, totally ignoring context, you did say those words and they are fit to be quoted.

ladies and gentlemen, rembee's a hater. islesfan and trueblue, you got a new running buddy!!!

No thanks. I work alone.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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7/10/2007  12:16 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by nyk4ever:
I think Phils going to go with Kwame there.


[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07-10-2007 12:01 PM]

So you disagree that the Lakers are no longer high on Bynum, but you admit that they are going with Kwame Brown instead.

My work here is done.

They aren't still high on Bynum?

2 months before the playoffs they refused to give him up for Jason Kidd.

Now they appear unwilling to give him up for Jermaine O'Neal.

Geez, you make it sound like they're willing to give him up for a total malcontent, whose team is absolutely begging to give him away just to keep him from contaminating their young players.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
nyk4ever
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7/10/2007  12:17 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by nyk4ever:
I think Phils going to go with Kwame there.


[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07-10-2007 12:01 PM]

So you disagree that the Lakers are no longer high on Bynum, but you admit that they are going with Kwame Brown instead.

My work here is done.

Haha, you just want out of the convo.

Did I say anywhere that it was right that they were going with Kwame Brown? Phil Jackson is as tempermental a coach as Larry Brown is, he does things his way and only his way. He doesn't work with young centers, never has never will. He never wanted Bynum in the first place, but Kupchak did.

There are better ways for you to ease your way out of the convo instead of **** like that.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
RemBee76
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7/10/2007  12:49 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Now they appear unwilling to give him up for Jermaine O'Neal.

No they are unwilling to give him up with Odom. In fact Odom is probably the sticking point.

And no, 4ever, don't want out of the convo, just noting the back track. You've gone from trying to argue that its normal NBA practice to cut a supposedly promising young players minutes to saying "Hey, its a Phil Jackson thing".

Thats fine, just means I made my point. Phil Jackson doesn't like Bynum, and hes only the most powerful guy in the organization.

To swing it back to the original point...its not unusual for an organization to change its mind about a young player they once saw as a key part of their core, case in point, Bynum on the Lakers.
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
TrueBlue
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7/10/2007  12:51 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by islesfan:
Now they appear unwilling to give him up for Jermaine O'Neal.

No they are unwilling to give him up with Odom. In fact Odom is probably the sticking point.

And no, 4ever, don't want out of the convo, just noting the back track. You've gone from trying to argue that its normal NBA practice to cut a supposedly promising young players minutes to saying "Hey, its a Phil Jackson thing".

Thats fine, just means I made my point. Phil Jackson doesn't like Bynum, and hes only the most powerful guy in the organization.

To swing it back to the original point...its not unusual for an organization to change its mind about a young player they once saw as a key part of their core, case in point, Bynum on the Lakers.


No Bynum is the sticking point
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
RemBee76
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7/10/2007  12:55 PM
Yeah, that makes sense Blue, because as the Lakers are trying to win now with Kobe, they would value a guy who they benched in favor of Kwame Brown and Ron Turiaf over a guy who played 40 minutes for them and scored 16 ppg with 10 rebs and 5 assists.

Right on.
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
islesfan
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7/10/2007  12:57 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by islesfan:
Now they appear unwilling to give him up for Jermaine O'Neal.

No they are unwilling to give him up with Odom. In fact Odom is probably the sticking point.

And no, 4ever, don't want out of the convo, just noting the back track. You've gone from trying to argue that its normal NBA practice to cut a supposedly promising young players minutes to saying "Hey, its a Phil Jackson thing".

Thats fine, just means I made my point. Phil Jackson doesn't like Bynum, and hes only the most powerful guy in the organization.

To swing it back to the original point...its not unusual for an organization to change its mind about a young player they once saw as a key part of their core, case in point, Bynum on the Lakers.

How can giving up Odom be the sticking point when they would have to trade him to make the salaries fit?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
sebstar
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7/10/2007  1:20 PM
Posted by MS:


GMs that rival isiah are McChale, Knight, Baylor, King, Ainge

Most of those guys' tenure almost doubles Isiah. Lord knows I dont want to get into a debate with one of you gentleman over job performance, because thats brick wall territory, but another NY reactionary firing would be counterproductive at this point. Then again, Zeke knew this isnt a city that is renown for its fairness.

Concerning Frye, why is there a definitive period being put at the end of the sentence? Granger, Bynum, Green...whomever. None of those guys have proven superior to Frye. We are still dealing with the currency of potential, so the hindsight button is still an unfair one to push. Zeke smelled trouble with Frye and dealt him for a superior talent. Happens.

Besides the point guards, the '05 draftees are not rounding into shape. Subpar draft.
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MS
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7/10/2007  1:44 PM
That talent was 61 million and very similiar to what we have to date, right now we are in the same situation with the francis deal, zach has been injured badly and god knows what could happen he is too similiar to eddy and it kills our defense......

Not pushing the hindsight this is what i was in favor of intially

Granger 13.9pts 4.7rbs 46%fg 38%3fg 10fga age 24
Greene 10.4pts 2.5rbs 42%fg 37%3fg 9fga age 21
Bynum 7.8pts 5.9rbs 1.6bks 57%fg 5.4ga age 19

Frye 9.5pts 5.5pts 43%fg 9.6fga age 24

Granger and Bynum are both much better defenders Bynum already does things most centers can't at his age in the low post he is a work in progress and 5 years younger than frye and would have been a good selection. Granger is a good defender with great range who isn't getting enough shots, and his stats are still good for a second year player. Greene is rounding into form showing strides, which is something frye didn't do.

You have a plan you stick to it. I am wondering if you are isiah why not just stand pat with kurt, draft granger and take you chance with curry makes a lot more sense and give you a good frontcourt to mold around eddy with guys that can stick the jumpers, add crawford and marbury and you have what you have been searching for not to mention a sf on a rookie deal and an expiring pf with flexibility. But gms aren't supposed to have a plan they just need to bring in mismatched talent and pray
nyk4ever
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7/10/2007  1:45 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by islesfan:
Now they appear unwilling to give him up for Jermaine O'Neal.

And no, 4ever, don't want out of the convo, just noting the back track. You've gone from trying to argue that its normal NBA practice to cut a supposedly promising young players minutes to saying "Hey, its a Phil Jackson thing".

Thats fine, just means I made my point. Phil Jackson doesn't like Bynum, and hes only the most powerful guy in the organization.

How is it a backtrack. You failed to ever mention that part of the reason his minutes being cut is because he's a 2nd year player whose 19 years old and was filling in for a starter who was now coming back from injury. It doesn't matter who he was filling in for, how many 19year old centers are playing in the NBA and playing big minutes? Bynum was certainly performing before Kwame came back 9pts/7rebs/1.25 blocks in 28 minutes and thats in a offense where Kobe is taking most of the shots, not bad, but again he's 19years old and a coach like Phil Jackson isn't going roll with him as a starter in the playoffs, it's just not going to happen. Do you think if Gerald Green wasn't playing on the Celtics he would have been averaging 27 minutes on a playoff team elsewhere? I doubt it.

What you're failing to realize in any of these discussions is that Bynum is 19years old and only a 2nd year player. How many 19year old centers are starting in the NBA? None. They take time to develop, which is why Kobe is trying to get a player to perform with him NOW.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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