Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by TheGame:

Posted by tkf:

thank god, let him destroy the magics cap, I wanted nothing to do with that guy and his salary demands....

The more these other GM's make moves, the more IT looks like a competent GM. He gets a 20/10 PF for players we did not want and avoids paying Lewis a max deal. There is no way Lewis is worth $75-$85 mil over 5 years. A fair deal for him would have been about $62 mil over 5 years.

Assuming the deal is 5 years at 75M, as was originally reported, how is what Isiah did with Randolph better when he gives us 4 years at 61M, but with repaired knees and a trailer of baggage?

75/5 = 15M/yr
61/4 = 15.25/yr

with randolph knees he still managed 23/10, he is a better player than lewis, hands down, and he is younger. Trailer of baggage? ah, I am willing to give him a fair shot. sprewell had the same trail of baggage and he became a fan favorite here in NY...

I don't know that Randolph is hands down a better player, it really depends on a teams needs. The irony is that Zach might have been a better compliment to their team and Rashard to ours.

It's just always funny to see fans talk about other teams wildly overpaying while we do what we do. Not to pick a fight or anything, but I remember you declaring Phoenix nuts for giving Nash his deal, which is probably the best bargain in the league, and similarly laughing at GS for signing Fisher to the MLE, all while we're paying marbury 19M per year.

Anyway, the NBA is an expensive business and virtually every team is over paying for someone, I simply see no reason to hold Randolph up as an example of wise spending relative to Lewis. I see them both as B grade talent getting top dollar, and nobody makes more of those moves than Isiah. Nobody.

yea, I thought the suns gave nash to much money, but it proved to be the right thing to do. But I also remember that converstaion and I said that Jason terry might be a better replacement in dallas for nash because he can score and defend and that dallas might be a better team, and guess what? the mavs went to the finals with terry a place nash could never get them, so I was right in one sense and wrong in another, so I can live with that...

And Blue, golden state did grosly overpay for fisher, they did, that was a joke, come on, but what does marbury have to do with that? what does any knick player have to do with another player being overpaid? If you are in a bad marriage, can you not recognize and comment about another bad marriage? I don't think any knick fan thinks that marbury is not overpaid at this point in his career, but when marbury got that deal, he was one of the better players in the league, the suns gave him that deal, overpaying like I thought they did nash, but I don't see what lewis being overpaid has to do with any knick player? Lewis is overpaid, fine, that is orlando's problem now, I just think guys like lewis, redd, who don't quite do the things that the next level of players like vince and T-mac do, are getting that type of money and it is insane!

I'm not trying to get you for being wrong about anyone, we're all wrong often enough.

See what I bolded and follow the quotes in this message. It's fine to think Orlando overpaid for Lewis. I did not challenge that notion when you originally offered it. Where I stuck my nose in was when TheGame said it makes Isiah's move look good. That's where it becomes relative to us. To use the metaphor you offered, someone else having a bad marriage really doesn't make another bad marriage look good. If one guy breaks gives his wife a concussion while another only breaks her jaw the one with a broken jaw isn't "lucky" and didn't come out ahead.

The Randolph trade is what it is for us, and the Rashard deal doesn't wont make it work out any better for us. A person who doesn't like top money for B grade players should be no happier about the Randolph signing today that he was yesterday, IMO.

I see your point. And I agree, lewis being overpaid does not make the knicks deal any better. I can see your point there. Although I wonder what is a guy who averages 23/10 worth? I mean there are only 4 other guys who do that, and all of them are top players in the league, ( with probably the exception of boozer,who still is a hell of a player) zach is owed 61 mil over 4 years, that is a lot of cash, but again his production is damn near unmatched... I am not justifying his salary, but if we compare his salary to guys like garnett and bosh, guys who he has gotten equal to or better numbers than, it looks like a bargain in some respects. Then there is the big man factor, we know how the league overpays for big men. My point is, lewis is a good player, but IMO a notch below guys like vince, pierce, T-mac, and he is making their money or better, and I have the same beef with michael redd....

again, it's orlando's money, so who am I to question that I guess..

Posted by tkf:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by TheGame:

Posted by tkf:

thank god, let him destroy the magics cap, I wanted nothing to do with that guy and his salary demands....

The more these other GM's make moves, the more IT looks like a competent GM. He gets a 20/10 PF for players we did not want and avoids paying Lewis a max deal. There is no way Lewis is worth $75-$85 mil over 5 years. A fair deal for him would have been about $62 mil over 5 years.

Assuming the deal is 5 years at 75M, as was originally reported, how is what Isiah did with Randolph better when he gives us 4 years at 61M, but with repaired knees and a trailer of baggage?

75/5 = 15M/yr
61/4 = 15.25/yr

with randolph knees he still managed 23/10, he is a better player than lewis, hands down, and he is younger. Trailer of baggage? ah, I am willing to give him a fair shot. sprewell had the same trail of baggage and he became a fan favorite here in NY...

I don't know that Randolph is hands down a better player, it really depends on a teams needs. The irony is that Zach might have been a better compliment to their team and Rashard to ours.

It's just always funny to see fans talk about other teams wildly overpaying while we do what we do. Not to pick a fight or anything, but I remember you declaring Phoenix nuts for giving Nash his deal, which is probably the best bargain in the league, and similarly laughing at GS for signing Fisher to the MLE, all while we're paying marbury 19M per year.

Anyway, the NBA is an expensive business and virtually every team is over paying for someone, I simply see no reason to hold Randolph up as an example of wise spending relative to Lewis. I see them both as B grade talent getting top dollar, and nobody makes more of those moves than Isiah. Nobody.

yea, I thought the suns gave nash to much money, but it proved to be the right thing to do. But I also remember that converstaion and I said that Jason terry might be a better replacement in dallas for nash because he can score and defend and that dallas might be a better team, and guess what? the mavs went to the finals with terry a place nash could never get them, so I was right in one sense and wrong in another, so I can live with that...

And Blue, golden state did grosly overpay for fisher, they did, that was a joke, come on, but what does marbury have to do with that? what does any knick player have to do with another player being overpaid? If you are in a bad marriage, can you not recognize and comment about another bad marriage? I don't think any knick fan thinks that marbury is not overpaid at this point in his career, but when marbury got that deal, he was one of the better players in the league, the suns gave him that deal, overpaying like I thought they did nash, but I don't see what lewis being overpaid has to do with any knick player? Lewis is overpaid, fine, that is orlando's problem now, I just think guys like lewis, redd, who don't quite do the things that the next level of players like vince and T-mac do, are getting that type of money and it is insane!

I'm not trying to get you for being wrong about anyone, we're all wrong often enough.

See what I bolded and follow the quotes in this message. It's fine to think Orlando overpaid for Lewis. I did not challenge that notion when you originally offered it. Where I stuck my nose in was when TheGame said it makes Isiah's move look good. That's where it becomes relative to us. To use the metaphor you offered, someone else having a bad marriage really doesn't make another bad marriage look good. If one guy breaks gives his wife a concussion while another only breaks her jaw the one with a broken jaw isn't "lucky" and didn't come out ahead.

The Randolph trade is what it is for us, and the Rashard deal doesn't wont make it work out any better for us. A person who doesn't like top money for B grade players should be no happier about the Randolph signing today that he was yesterday, IMO.

I see your point. And I agree, lewis being overpaid does not make the knicks deal any better. I can see your point there. Although I wonder what is a guy who averages 23/10 worth? I mean there are only 4 other guys who do that, and all of them are top players in the league, ( with probably the exception of boozer,who still is a hell of a player) zach is owed 61 mil over 4 years, that is a lot of cash, but again his production is damn near unmatched... I am not justifying his salary, but if we compare his salary to guys like garnett and bosh, guys who he has gotten equal to or better numbers than, it looks like a bargain in some respects. Then there is the big man factor, we know how the league overpays for big men. My point is, lewis is a good player, but IMO a notch below guys like vince, pierce, T-mac, and he is making their money or better, and I have the same beef with michael redd....

again, it's orlando's money, so who am I to question that I guess..

This really was my point. Randolph scores more, rebounds better, and gets to the free throw line at an allstar rate. Given the premium on big men who can score and get opposing defenses in foul trouble, I really don't think Randolph is overpaid by much. Really, if Randolph had not had his off the court problems, no one would question that he is worth his pay. So IT agreeing to take on his max contract IMO was a good move; a far better move than giving Lewis a max deal.

Posted by jaydh:

Posted by tkf:
Although I wonder what is a guy who averages 23/10 worth? I mean there are only 4 other guys who do that, and all of them are top players in the league, ( with probably the exception of boozer,who still is a hell of a player) zach is owed 61 mil over 4 years, that is a lot of cash, but again his production is damn near unmatched... I am not justifying his salary, but if we compare his salary to guys like garnett and bosh, guys who he has gotten equal to or better numbers than, it looks like a bargain in some respects. Then there is the big man factor, we know how the league overpays for big men. My point is, lewis is a good player, but IMO a notch below guys like vince, pierce, T-mac, and he is making their money or better, and I have the same beef with michael redd....

again, it's orlando's money, so who am I to question that I guess..

c'mon now, Zach is not a 23/10 player. He put up those stats one year on a very dismal team. Last season Randolph shot the ball over 1200 times, thats 200 more than EC(who had the most shots for us last season). There is no way possible, with the way our team is currently constructed, that Randolph repeats those numbers. It's hilarious you compare him to KG or Bosh. At least those 2 can play D and have put up those types of numbers for more than 1 season.

Posted by tkf:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by tkf:
I see your point. And I agree, lewis being overpaid does not make the knicks deal any better. I can see your point there. Although I wonder what is a guy who averages 23/10 worth? I mean there are only 4 other guys who do that, and all of them are top players in the league, ( with probably the exception of boozer,who still is a hell of a player) zach is owed 61 mil over 4 years, that is a lot of cash, but again his production is damn near unmatched... I am not justifying his salary, but if we compare his salary to guys like garnett and bosh, guys who he has gotten equal to or better numbers than, it looks like a bargain in some respects. Then there is the big man factor, we know how the league overpays for big men. My point is, lewis is a good player, but IMO a notch below guys like vince, pierce, T-mac, and he is making their money or better, and I have the same beef with michael redd....

again, it's orlando's money, so who am I to question that I guess..

When you ask what a 20/10 guys is worth you have to remember that at points in time Walker and SAR were in the league, or close. Zach was putting up those numbers as a focal point on a bad team and it remains to be seen how that will translate here. He doesn't have to continue to put up 20/10 to have worth, just as Marbury's worth increases as he puts up less points, but he (Zach) has to be able to blend and it all has to jive. Neither Walker or SAR cary the value they once did and there's a good chance Zach wont either while we're paying him 17M per.

This is an aside to all that, but when we compare lewis to Zach we have to remember he was getting his while sharing the ball with Ray Allen, another prolific scorer. So he's done it without being the focal point.

good point about SAR and WAlker, but zach was part of some good blazers team, now I am not sure if he was the focal point at that time, but he was a key contributor. I agree zach doesn't have to score 23/10 to be effective for the knicks but his rebouding and presence can elevate our team if he can mesh with curry. Again good point about walker and SAR, I don't know if they were actual 20/10 guys but you are right they were close, but I don't think they were the same player zach is, SAR may be closer, Walker's numbers were the most deceiving I have ever seen...

Walker was 20/10 and he was on a couple good Boston teams 4-5yrs ago. Walker also dished out 4-5ast/gm while putting up those numbers. You could say the same thing when Jamison played for the Warriors, Ricky Davis on the Cavs, Vin Baker on the Bucks.

Posted by tkf:

Posted by jaydh:

Posted by tkf:
Although I wonder what is a guy who averages 23/10 worth? I mean there are only 4 other guys who do that, and all of them are top players in the league, ( with probably the exception of boozer,who still is a hell of a player) zach is owed 61 mil over 4 years, that is a lot of cash, but again his production is damn near unmatched... I am not justifying his salary, but if we compare his salary to guys like garnett and bosh, guys who he has gotten equal to or better numbers than, it looks like a bargain in some respects. Then there is the big man factor, we know how the league overpays for big men. My point is, lewis is a good player, but IMO a notch below guys like vince, pierce, T-mac, and he is making their money or better, and I have the same beef with michael redd....

again, it's orlando's money, so who am I to question that I guess..

c'mon now, Zach is not a 23/10 player. He put up those stats one year on a very dismal team. Last season Randolph shot the ball over 1200 times, thats 200 more than EC(who had the most shots for us last season). There is no way possible, with the way our team is currently constructed, that Randolph repeats those numbers. It's hilarious you compare him to KG or Bosh. At least those 2 can play D and have put up those types of numbers for more than 1 season.

OK, then what is he?

Posted by tkf:

and why is it hilarious to compare him to KG and bosh, I compared their numbers to be exact?

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by tkf:
I see your point. And I agree, lewis being overpaid does not make the knicks deal any better. I can see your point there. Although I wonder what is a guy who averages 23/10 worth? I mean there are only 4 other guys who do that, and all of them are top players in the league, ( with probably the exception of boozer,who still is a hell of a player) zach is owed 61 mil over 4 years, that is a lot of cash, but again his production is damn near unmatched... I am not justifying his salary, but if we compare his salary to guys like garnett and bosh, guys who he has gotten equal to or better numbers than, it looks like a bargain in some respects. Then there is the big man factor, we know how the league overpays for big men. My point is, lewis is a good player, but IMO a notch below guys like vince, pierce, T-mac, and he is making their money or better, and I have the same beef with michael redd....

again, it's orlando's money, so who am I to question that I guess..

When you ask what a 20/10 guys is worth you have to remember that at points in time Walker and SAR were in the league, or close. Zach was putting up those numbers as a focal point on a bad team and it remains to be seen how that will translate here. He doesn't have to continue to put up 20/10 to have worth, just as Marbury's worth increases as he puts up less points, but he (Zach) has to be able to blend and it all has to jive. Neither Walker or SAR cary the value they once did and there's a good chance Zach wont either while we're paying him 17M per.

This is an aside to all that, but when we compare lewis to Zach we have to remember he was getting his while sharing the ball with Ray Allen, another prolific scorer. So he's done it without being the focal point.

good point about SAR and WAlker, but zach was part of some good blazers team, now I am not sure if he was the focal point at that time, but he was a key contributor. I agree zach doesn't have to score 23/10 to be effective for the knicks but his rebouding and presence can elevate our team if he can mesh with curry. Again good point about walker and SAR, I don't know if they were actual 20/10 guys but you are right they were close, but I don't think they were the same player zach is, SAR may be closer, Walker's numbers were the most deceiving I have ever seen...

Walker was 20/10 and he was on a couple good Boston teams 4-5yrs ago. Walker also dished out 4-5ast/gm while putting up those numbers. You could say the same thing when Jamison played for the Warriors, Ricky Davis on the Cavs, Vin Baker on the Bucks.

actually jamison has turned out to be one hell of a player, better than I thought, I heard he is a great leader in the locker room, and offensively he is as tough as it gets at the SF spot.... I soured on walker when boston was in the playoffs, he dissapeared and kenyon martin just manhandled him. ricky davis is a jerk nuff said... Vin Baker was a good player actually. I wonder how much the alcohol had to do with the quick deterioration of his game..

Well your conclusions are hindsight. AT the time that those players were dealt statistically they were studs and the argument could have made on their side. And it doesn't matter if your problem is alcohol or the fact you like violate women, shoot guns, fight with your teammates to the point of serious injury etc etc.

who said I was making any conclusions? And who really considered any of those guys studs?

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by tkf:
I see your point. And I agree, lewis being overpaid does not make the knicks deal any better. I can see your point there. Although I wonder what is a guy who averages 23/10 worth? I mean there are only 4 other guys who do that, and all of them are top players in the league, ( with probably the exception of boozer,who still is a hell of a player) zach is owed 61 mil over 4 years, that is a lot of cash, but again his production is damn near unmatched... I am not justifying his salary, but if we compare his salary to guys like garnett and bosh, guys who he has gotten equal to or better numbers than, it looks like a bargain in some respects. Then there is the big man factor, we know how the league overpays for big men. My point is, lewis is a good player, but IMO a notch below guys like vince, pierce, T-mac, and he is making their money or better, and I have the same beef with michael redd....

again, it's orlando's money, so who am I to question that I guess..

When you ask what a 20/10 guys is worth you have to remember that at points in time Walker and SAR were in the league, or close. Zach was putting up those numbers as a focal point on a bad team and it remains to be seen how that will translate here. He doesn't have to continue to put up 20/10 to have worth, just as Marbury's worth increases as he puts up less points, but he (Zach) has to be able to blend and it all has to jive. Neither Walker or SAR cary the value they once did and there's a good chance Zach wont either while we're paying him 17M per.

This is an aside to all that, but when we compare lewis to Zach we have to remember he was getting his while sharing the ball with Ray Allen, another prolific scorer. So he's done it without being the focal point.

good point about SAR and WAlker, but zach was part of some good blazers team, now I am not sure if he was the focal point at that time, but he was a key contributor. I agree zach doesn't have to score 23/10 to be effective for the knicks but his rebouding and presence can elevate our team if he can mesh with curry. Again good point about walker and SAR, I don't know if they were actual 20/10 guys but you are right they were close, but I don't think they were the same player zach is, SAR may be closer, Walker's numbers were the most deceiving I have ever seen...

Walker was 20/10 and he was on a couple good Boston teams 4-5yrs ago. Walker also dished out 4-5ast/gm while putting up those numbers. You could say the same thing when Jamison played for the Warriors, Ricky Davis on the Cavs, Vin Baker on the Bucks.

actually jamison has turned out to be one hell of a player, better than I thought, I heard he is a great leader in the locker room, and offensively he is as tough as it gets at the SF spot.... I soured on walker when boston was in the playoffs, he dissapeared and kenyon martin just manhandled him. ricky davis is a jerk nuff said... Vin Baker was a good player actually. I wonder how much the alcohol had to do with the quick deterioration of his game..

Well your conclusions are hindsight. AT the time that those players were dealt statistically they were studs and the argument could have made on their side. And it doesn't matter if your problem is alcohol or the fact you like violate women, shoot guns, fight with your teammates to the point of serious injury etc etc.

who said I was making any conclusions? And who really considered any of those guys studs?

Their stats were studly not the player, the same with Zach.

opinion?

Posted by sebstar:

I find it interesting that the biggest critics of the Isiah regime are practically tripping over themselves to heap glowing praise in regards to the Magic throwing 15 mil a year at a 30-year-old, one dimensional player.

If this is the reward for cap space, then consider me suspicious of that philosophy...wheres all the Lebron, Wade talk when it comes to the Magic? Why didnt they wait?

it's also curious how the supporters of the Zach Randolph trade have completely dismissed the cap ramifications & amount of money owed on his max contract, a young offensively talented player who plays no defense & has character issues to boot, & yet can't help but to harp negatively on the length & monetary value on Rashard Lewis' max contract, a young offensively talented player who plays no defense but carries no such personal baggage... but consistency is an overrated concept anyway.