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The Real Problem with the Trade (Lee vs. Zach)
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holfresh
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11/24/2007  2:00 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by holfresh:
And DLee is a shotblocker and low post defender?



do you understand the words that are coming out of my moooouth?

we didn't NEED a low post scorer & rebounder... we already HAD them in Curry & D Lee... we needed a shotblocker & low post defender... really not all that difficult a concept to grasp.

Zach's making a boatload of money to do things for this team that we didn't need to be addressed... get it now?

We got Zack for Francis and Frye....Nothing really....Lee and Curry together doesn't work because we double Curry and Lee can't shoot from the outside...Who is that mythical low post defender and shot blocker that is available anyway?

AUTOADVERT
TMS
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11/24/2007  2:24 AM
wow, u really aren't getting it are you? the point is you don't take on another longterm huge money contract unless you can justify the move by filling some of the big needs we needed to be filled on this team... what we gave up for him is immaterial... we now have yet another cap killing contract on the books for the next 4 years that we really didn't need... how much has this team really improved by adding Zach to the roster? do u really think this team is so much better off now than it was before the trade was made? like i said, if u can move Curry &/or D Lee for a major piece that complements Zach's game, then you can look back on it & say it was a good deal to make... until then, it's just another 1 in a long line of nonsensical roster moves Isiah's made since he's been here.
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holfresh
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11/24/2007  2:33 AM
Posted by TMS:

wow, u really aren't getting it are you? the point is you don't take on another longterm huge money contract unless you can justify the move by filling some of the big needs we needed to be filled on this team... what we gave up for him is immaterial... we now have yet another cap killing contract on the books for the next 4 years that we really didn't need... how much has this team really improved by adding Zach to the roster? do u really think this team is so much better off now than it was before the trade was made? like i said, if u can move Curry &/or D Lee for a major piece that complements Zach's game, then you can look back on it & say it was a good deal to make... until then, it's just another 1 in a long line of nonsensical roster moves Isiah's made since he's been here.

Silly argument really because the Knicks will never under the cap...We will have to reup DLee at 6-8 mil per anyway...We will always be over the cap...

TMS
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11/24/2007  2:37 AM
so in your eyes it makes perfect sense to take on albatross contract after albatross contract, no matter how these players complement the ones we already have... no wonder you love Isiah so much.
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holfresh
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11/24/2007  2:41 AM
Posted by TMS:

so in your eyes it makes perfect sense to take on albatross contract after albatross contract, no matter how these players complement the ones we already have... no wonder you love Isiah so much.

No nothing is perfect but you have to look at it in the real world..there aren't any low post shot blockers out there available...DLee is a nice player but can't compete with the best the league has to offer...The Isiah and Marbury act has fail, time to move on...You guys are harping our positives...Zack and DLee...We have bigger problems...
Finestrg
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11/24/2007  12:18 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by TMS:

so in your eyes it makes perfect sense to take on albatross contract after albatross contract, no matter how these players complement the ones we already have... no wonder you love Isiah so much.

No nothing is perfect but you have to look at it in the real world..there aren't any low post shot blockers out there available...DLee is a nice player but can't compete with the best the league has to offer...The Isiah and Marbury act has fail, time to move on...You guys are harping our positives...Zack and DLee...We have bigger problems...

Yeah, I'm sure teams aren't just dangling shot-blocking talent out there on a string. Ripe apples to be plucked off the tree. It doesn't work that way all the time. Sometimes it's easy and there's a firesale somewhere where you can get what you want at a reduced price, but most of the time, you've got to initiate and be creative. First and formost, Zeke's got to recognize he's got a huge deficiency in that area and it needs to be addressed. That's the first step. And to be honest, I don't think he believes that at all or doesn't put much stock into it, evident by his "shotblocking's overrated" comments from the pre-season and most recently by his comments concerning Eddy Curry's role on defense: "It's not up to Eddy to bail us out. We can't just look at Eddy all the time for help." I'm paraphrasing a little here, but you remember the comments. I kinda see where he's coming from a little (obviously, he's sick and tied of his rotten guard play on defense) but still, you can't just give Eddy an out like that publicly. That's insane. Has Eddy earned and out like that? No way dude. No way do you take Eddy off the hook like that. Never. It's almost like telling everyone Eddy does enough and you don't expect anymore from him. That's how I took that and I could see Eddy taking it that way also. I'm sorry but Curry can't continuely be coddled that way. Zeke's got to finally sit this turkey down and say listen, I know you're only 25, but that's not an excuse anymore. Enough of the bull****. You've been in this league for a while now and you know what's expected. I'll speak to the guards about doing their part, but either you finally decide to play some defense or you can forget about making and stupid all-star team and being compared to Dwight Howard (which was such a joke last year btw, Isiah should have never lobbied as hard as he did for Eddy to be an all-star) and more importantly, YOU CAN FORGET ABOUT YOUR TEAM WINNING ANYTHING!!!! The Marburys, Richardsons and Crawfords will come and go. But Eddy's the centerpiece - he's the guy with the most potential here. And you know what, HE'S GOT TO BE HELD THE MOST ACCOUNTABLE!!!! Bottom line moving forward. Some guys you don't have to worry about, but it's obvious now that Curry's a guy that you have to continuely light a fire under because the damn pilot light keeps going out.

Enough about Eddy though. Eddy needs help, no matter how much defense we might be able to squeeze out of him one day. A good GM recognizes a need, then goes out there and pursues it, whether it's readily available or not. You put a list together with your asst. executive personnel, try to pinpoint who you want, then pick up the damn phone, initiate the talks and make it happen.

My list for interior defensive help worth trading for at this time is a short one:

(1) A Justin Williams/Francisco Garcia package
(2) Andris Biedrins
(3) Hilton Armstrong
(4) Samuel Dalembert

"Yeah Mullin? Isiah. How are ya pal? How's the family? Great, listen, I really like the kid Biedrins a lot. How do you feel about Balkman and Randolph Morris? You have some interest in Balkman, but that's not enough? Oh, you really like Lee though. Hum? What was that? Lee and Balkman huh? Well let me think about that. You gonna be around later? Alright, cool, let me talk this over with my people and Dolan and I'll call you later. Thanks Chris."

It ain't rocket science.
newyorknewyork
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11/24/2007  2:13 PM
Zach Randolph is as much the problem as the rest of the team.

Maybe he needs an Iverson type of linuep around him. Like when Iverson used to shoot the ball 30 times a game while everyone around him was a lunchpale defender who didn't need plays draw up for them to score.

Lee is better than Randolph for the same reasons that

Billups is better then Marbury, that Kevin Martin/Rip Hamilton is better than Jamal Crawford, That Shane Battier is better than Q.Richardson. Though they all lack there counterparts talent in some cases atheltism. In todays NBA with so many talented guys but guys that lack the understanding and fundamentals. Teams who have the players with understanding of how to play the game will win a lot more than having a ton of talent.

Thats why Lee is coverted around the NBA, thats why Gms are targeting european players. Because players with the understanding of how to play the game, and the fundamentals, making the right decisions at the right time is at a premium today.
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holfresh
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11/24/2007  2:24 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Zach Randolph is as much the problem as the rest of the team.

Maybe he needs an Iverson type of linuep around him. Like when Iverson used to shoot the ball 30 times a game while everyone around him was a lunchpale defender who didn't need plays draw up for them to score.

Lee is better than Randolph for the same reasons that

Billups is better then Marbury, that Kevin Martin/Rip Hamilton is better than Jamal Crawford, That Shane Battier is better than Q.Richardson. Though they all lack there counterparts talent in some cases atheltism. In todays NBA with so many talented guys but guys that lack the understanding and fundamentals. Teams who have the players with understanding of how to play the game will win a lot more than having a ton of talent.

Thats why Lee is coverted around the NBA, thats why Gms are targeting european players. Because players with the understanding of how to play the game, and the fundamentals, making the right decisions at the right time is at a premium today.

Not sure what your point is but Lee is not better than Randolph period....Randolph can start on most teams in this league...Lee can't...

Randolph is better at the things that Lee does best..rebounding...Randolph is a better defender...Let's not talk offense...





[Edited by - holfresh on 11-24-2007 2:28 PM]
Finestrg
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11/24/2007  2:28 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Zach Randolph is as much the problem as the rest of the team.

Maybe he needs an Iverson type of linuep around him. Like when Iverson used to shoot the ball 30 times a game while everyone around him was a lunchpale defender who didn't need plays draw up for them to score.

Lee is better than Randolph for the same reasons that

Billups is better then Marbury, that Kevin Martin/Rip Hamilton is better than Jamal Crawford, That Shane Battier is better than Q.Richardson. Though they all lack there counterparts talent in some cases atheltism. In todays NBA with so many talented guys but guys that lack the understanding and fundamentals. Teams who have the players with understanding of how to play the game will win a lot more than having a ton of talent.

Thats why Lee is coverted around the NBA, thats why Gms are targeting european players. Because players with the understanding of how to play the game, and the fundamentals, making the right decisions at the right time is at a premium today.

All true. Can't argue a word. But how do we fix this? That's the thing. I don't think you blow this whole thing up yet. For one thing, that's not as easy as it sounds with the salary cap and all our big contracts. I agree it's not the best fit, 1 thru 15. A lot of square-peg, round-hole out there. That's why I've been trying to come up with ways to re-tool. Makes me feel better anyway.
Finestrg
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11/24/2007  2:29 PM
Yeah, I agree with Holfresh though - Zach's a superior player over Lee.
newyorknewyork
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11/24/2007  3:16 PM
He may not be a better talent than Randolph. But he is a better basketball player. It really doesn't matter if Randolph would start on more teams than Lee based on his talent becuase teams are going to avoid Randolph anyway. Why couldn't Portland get a better deal than Francis who they bought out & Frye for the great Randolph? Could it be the same reason why Francis was traded for only Penny Hardaway & Trever Ariza? Now look at Lee's price, production, intangibles, hustle and he is a flat out bargain. Which is why he is coverted around the league. 10pts-10rebs, 60fg%, 80ft%, 1.6TOs in 30mins. Thats winning basketball. To me and probably many gms, Randolph & Lee are both role players except Lee is better value, less risk, better efficiency, while not so far off in production that it voids all else.

The point is that if you put 5 efficient players who know how to play the game of basketball and make smart decisions together on a team. Even if they aren't the most talented players at there positions. They will win more games than 5 supertalented inefficent players. Thats the difference with the Piston & Knicks.

I have a question for you is the linuep of Billups, Hamilton, Prince, Sheed, Muhammad more *talented* than Marbury, Crawford, Richardson, Randolph, Curry? Is the linuep of Parker, Ginobli, Bowen, Orberto, Duncan more *talented* lineup than Marbury, Crawford, Richardson, Randolph, Curry? Key word being TALENTED.
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holfresh
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11/24/2007  3:35 PM

I really don't think Lee is a better player in the sense you are talking about...Zack has his share of turnovers and he shoots too much but thats it...He is flat out better than Lee, talent wise and as a player on the court..But Lee is good as well so who cares, they a both Knickerbockers so I'm happy with both....
Panos
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11/24/2007  5:02 PM
Posted by TMS:

wow, u really aren't getting it are you? the point is you don't take on another longterm huge money contract unless you can justify the move by filling some of the big needs we needed to be filled on this team... what we gave up for him is immaterial... we now have yet another cap killing contract on the books for the next 4 years that we really didn't need... how much has this team really improved by adding Zach to the roster? do u really think this team is so much better off now than it was before the trade was made? like i said, if u can move Curry &/or D Lee for a major piece that complements Zach's game, then you can look back on it & say it was a good deal to make... until then, it's just another 1 in a long line of nonsensical roster moves Isiah's made since he's been here.


TMS, you really don't get it do you. You have to look under the surface of the trade. Isiah is a subtle cat. Zach was brought in to ensure that our chemistry and defense sucked bad enough that we could lock up the number 1 or 2 pick in the draft this year. At that time we can draft the best shot blocker/defender coming out, and trade Curry next year.

Damn, do I have to spell everything out for you?

TMS
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11/24/2007  9:44 PM
Posted by Panos:
Posted by TMS:

wow, u really aren't getting it are you? the point is you don't take on another longterm huge money contract unless you can justify the move by filling some of the big needs we needed to be filled on this team... what we gave up for him is immaterial... we now have yet another cap killing contract on the books for the next 4 years that we really didn't need... how much has this team really improved by adding Zach to the roster? do u really think this team is so much better off now than it was before the trade was made? like i said, if u can move Curry &/or D Lee for a major piece that complements Zach's game, then you can look back on it & say it was a good deal to make... until then, it's just another 1 in a long line of nonsensical roster moves Isiah's made since he's been here.


TMS, you really don't get it do you. You have to look under the surface of the trade. Isiah is a subtle cat. Zach was brought in to ensure that our chemistry and defense sucked bad enough that we could lock up the number 1 or 2 pick in the draft this year. At that time we can draft the best shot blocker/defender coming out, and trade Curry next year.

Damn, do I have to spell everything out for you?


Panos, ur forgetting that we would be 0-12 if Isiah hadn't made that trade, remember?... we should all be thanking our lucky stars & giving Isiah props for the fact that we have those 3 wins so far this year... we will be a 30 something win team if it kills us this year... reach for those stars my man! reach for em! spending an extra $30+ million to achieve the same mediocrity as the season prior should always be our #1 focus going into any offseason. everyone knows that's how you build a champion.
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TMS
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11/24/2007  9:50 PM
Posted by holfresh:


I really don't think Lee is a better player in the sense you are talking about...Zack has his share of turnovers and he shoots too much but thats it...He is flat out better than Lee, talent wise and as a player on the court..But Lee is good as well so who cares, they a both Knickerbockers so I'm happy with both....

Lee is a better passer than Zach, runs the court & finishes on fastbreaks better than anyone other than Balkman on this team, & knows his role & accepts it... Zach wants the ball in his hands because he thinks he can carry the load for this team & catapult them to longterm success... meanwhile he's too lazy to run down court to get back on defense whenever he doesn't get a foul called on the other end, just like Marbs & some other members of this team... he's a great rebounder that takes way too many shots considering his low shooting percentage & turns the ball over way too much because he's a black hole that never wants to give the ball up once he gets it... in the long run, i would much rather have D Lee on this team than Zach, both because of the contract situation as well as the personality & character of both players.

[Edited by - TMS on 11-24-2007 6:50 PM]
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TMS
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11/24/2007  9:55 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by TMS:

so in your eyes it makes perfect sense to take on albatross contract after albatross contract, no matter how these players complement the ones we already have... no wonder you love Isiah so much.

No nothing is perfect but you have to look at it in the real world..there aren't any low post shot blockers out there available...DLee is a nice player but can't compete with the best the league has to offer...The Isiah and Marbury act has fail, time to move on...You guys are harping our positives...Zack and DLee...We have bigger problems...

what do u mean there's no shotblockers available? Brad Miller could have been a feasible alternative that would have actually addressed a need on this team - defense & shotblocking... plus the guy's a great passer & can shoot the midrange jumper... u telling me we wouldn't have had any shot at a guy like that? his contract is at least more tolerable than Zach's & he actually brings things in his game that we're currently lacking... i'm sure there's other names out there we could have targetted that woulda made a ton more sense than Zach Randolph... Isiah knew he got the guy for cheap because POR wanted desperately to unload the guy... doesn't that tell u something right there?
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Finestrg
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11/24/2007  11:26 PM
Zach wouldn't have been my first choice as far as getting help for this team either, but he committed to the guy along with Curry, so what are you gonna do? We can keep calling for the guys head on a platter, which is the sexy thing to do right now. Believe me, I understand it. It make most of the fans feel better. Regardless, for the time being, we've gotta live with what Isiah does until he's either canned and we get another GM that wants to go in a completely different direction OR Isiah re-tools this club with players that fit around this flawed core that he's put together here until something clicks. Right now, the latter is more realistic especially if Dolan is completely committed to Zeke and his plan - which appears to be so. That's it...

IMHO, Curry, Zach and Lee do not fit well together - we need more, especially defensively. Curry and Zach aren't going anywhere as long as Isiah's here - and it does have a chance to work. It's almost as if we have no choice but to make it work at this point. Zeke's come this far, misfires and all - he owes it to us and himself to continue to make changes and tinker with this thing until he comes up with the right combination. And he's not there yet. Not by a mile.
TMS
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11/24/2007  11:41 PM
obviously we gotta live w/what the situation is... the topic was raised so i'm just chiming in on it... i can also look to the future... there's still a way to make sense of the Zach trade by trading Curry &/or D Lee for an important piece that we're missing right now... i just hope Isiah's got a plan in place to do so & not just end up eating yet another huge contract sometime down the road that doesn't address any of the team's needs the same way he did w/Steve Francis to begin with.
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Finestrg
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11/24/2007  11:59 PM
Posted by TMS:

obviously we gotta live w/what the situation is... the topic was raised so i'm just chiming in on it... i can also look to the future... there's still a way to make sense of the Zach trade by trading Curry &/or D Lee for an important piece that we're missing right now... i just hope Isiah's got a plan in place to do so & not just end up eating yet another huge contract sometime down the road that doesn't address any of the team's needs the same way he did w/Steve Francis to begin with.

Agreed. You just get the feeling that he's reluctant to make any futher alterations though. Either that or Dolan's told him that he's done shelling out money and he's got to live with what he has. Either way sucks for us and this team. I hope that's not the case. He's got to open his eyes and realize that this things not finished. One thing's for sure - I don't wanna here Zeke ever say again, "I'm happy with our club and our players." "All we need now is time to gel." Bull****! HORSESHIT!!!! If I can sit around my computer here and come up with a half-dozen sensible ways to improve this thing and he either can't or won't, that's a big problem...
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11/25/2007  12:54 AM
Posted by Finestrg:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by TMS:

so in your eyes it makes perfect sense to take on albatross contract after albatross contract, no matter how these players complement the ones we already have... no wonder you love Isiah so much.

No nothing is perfect but you have to look at it in the real world..there aren't any low post shot blockers out there available...DLee is a nice player but can't compete with the best the league has to offer...The Isiah and Marbury act has fail, time to move on...You guys are harping our positives...Zack and DLee...We have bigger problems...

Yeah, I'm sure teams aren't just dangling shot-blocking talent out there on a string. Ripe apples to be plucked off the tree. It doesn't work that way all the time. Sometimes it's easy and there's a firesale somewhere where you can get what you want at a reduced price, but most of the time, you've got to initiate and be creative. First and formost, Zeke's got to recognize he's got a huge deficiency in that area and it needs to be addressed. That's the first step. And to be honest, I don't think he believes that at all or doesn't put much stock into it, evident by his "shotblocking's overrated" comments from the pre-season and most recently by his comments concerning Eddy Curry's role on defense: "It's not up to Eddy to bail us out. We can't just look at Eddy all the time for help." I'm paraphrasing a little here, but you remember the comments. I kinda see where he's coming from a little (obviously, he's sick and tied of his rotten guard play on defense) but still, you can't just give Eddy an out like that publicly. That's insane. Has Eddy earned and out like that? No way dude. No way do you take Eddy off the hook like that. Never. It's almost like telling everyone Eddy does enough and you don't expect anymore from him. That's how I took that and I could see Eddy taking it that way also. I'm sorry but Curry can't continuely be coddled that way. Zeke's got to finally sit this turkey down and say listen, I know you're only 25, but that's not an excuse anymore. Enough of the bull****. You've been in this league for a while now and you know what's expected. I'll speak to the guards about doing their part, but either you finally decide to play some defense or you can forget about making and stupid all-star team and being compared to Dwight Howard (which was such a joke last year btw, Isiah should have never lobbied as hard as he did for Eddy to be an all-star) and more importantly, YOU CAN FORGET ABOUT YOUR TEAM WINNING ANYTHING!!!! The Marburys, Richardsons and Crawfords will come and go. But Eddy's the centerpiece - he's the guy with the most potential here. And you know what, HE'S GOT TO BE HELD THE MOST ACCOUNTABLE!!!! Bottom line moving forward. Some guys you don't have to worry about, but it's obvious now that Curry's a guy that you have to continuely light a fire under because the damn pilot light keeps going out.

Enough about Eddy though. Eddy needs help, no matter how much defense we might be able to squeeze out of him one day. A good GM recognizes a need, then goes out there and pursues it, whether it's readily available or not. You put a list together with your asst. executive personnel, try to pinpoint who you want, then pick up the damn phone, initiate the talks and make it happen.

My list for interior defensive help worth trading for at this time is a short one:

(1) A Justin Williams/Francisco Garcia package
(2) Andris Biedrins
(3) Hilton Armstrong
(4) Samuel Dalembert

"Yeah Mullin? Isiah. How are ya pal? How's the family? Great, listen, I really like the kid Biedrins a lot. How do you feel about Balkman and Randolph Morris? You have some interest in Balkman, but that's not enough? Oh, you really like Lee though. Hum? What was that? Lee and Balkman huh? Well let me think about that. You gonna be around later? Alright, cool, let me talk this over with my people and Dolan and I'll call you later. Thanks Chris."

It ain't rocket science.

great post. and when you think about it, wouldn't a frye/ nate or a lee/ nate been good enough for biendrins, especially since both can play uptempo basketball? we could have made that deal, buy out francis and had a PF that fits so much better with curry.. You are right, it is not rocket science...

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
The Real Problem with the Trade (Lee vs. Zach)

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