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kosmovitelli masterpiece: A typical Isiah trade
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babyKnicks
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7/1/2007  9:16 PM
to be honest, anyone that thinks the lotto (real or sports related) is the answer to their prayers does have some problems.
Let's go Knicks. That's amare
AUTOADVERT
kam77
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7/1/2007  9:16 PM
I already gave you the Lakers with SHAQ. The Lakers signed the Dominant MEGASTAR of his time on the Open Market. Do you have one other example? One more example of a max player who hit the open market and didn't re-sign with his team and then led his new team to a TITLE? Other than SHAQ?
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
nixluva
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7/1/2007  9:16 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by TMS:

so what team is the example that the Knicks are following that have been capped out to oblivion for the past several years with no regard for fiscal responsibility & have still managed to win an NBA title?

The only examples of teams that have tried it are the Dallas Mavericks and Portland Trailblazers. Both teams then realized that the strategy wasn't getting them to the big game and started being more fiscally responsible. Suddenly the Mavericks were in the NBA finals and boisted the best record in the league, while the Blazers got Greg Oden. Strange, eh?

OH PLEASE! Portland just got lucky. They could've ended like Memphis or Boston and again missed out on a top pick. The lottery is such a crapshoot. The Spurs didn't do anything special they got a lucky bounce of the Ping Pong ball. I really grow tired of all this praise for teams just catching a break. It's true that they made the most of that break, but it could just as easily have gone the other way since it was out of their control.

Now the manner in which Isiah is going about team building isn't some tried and true method and i'm not holding it out to be. He's having to make adjustments on the fly, but underneath it all he has still managed to improve the team and our chances of making further improvements. You have to like some of our draft talent. Overall It's not a bad product considering how he got it done. Isiah is not a good GM, but in this situation with this owner he's had a lot of resources to use in order to overcome what would normally be a problem in many cities. Like the Yankees we have lots of money and that means they can absorb more mistakes than other teams. You don't have to like it, but it's a fact.
kam77
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7/1/2007  9:17 PM
like i said, Isiah can manage to trade for Kobe in another deal, then i'll be perfectly fine w/the Zach trade... the whole goal for me is to acquire that franchise player to build around.

See, i misunderstood. I thought you were against the Zach trade. But seeing this... makes me think you're willing to be patient and see where this goes.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
babyKnicks
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7/1/2007  9:18 PM
Posted by kam77:
like i said, Isiah can manage to trade for Kobe in another deal, then i'll be perfectly fine w/the Zach trade... the whole goal for me is to acquire that franchise player to build around.

See, i misunderstood. I thought you were against the Zach trade. But seeing this... makes me think you're willing to be patient and see where this goes.

never!
Let's go Knicks. That's amare
TMS
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7/1/2007  9:26 PM
Posted by kam77:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by kam77:

I'm not against the notion of cap space either. Its just not something you're going to have as a Knick fan so I'm not going to sit there after every trade and bitch about it. I mean, TMS, you called us morons who don't think that was a bad trade. You're going to personal attacks and you're BETTER than that man.


dude, you came out w/that remark about the dim bulbs who kept harping on cap space, so excuse me if my reply wasn't to your liking... next time if you want a civil reply, don't make insults to people who have an opposing viewpoint.

What was that post a couple weeks ago about ... anyone who sits around waiting for the lottery (or a handout) is a loser?

Thats what some people are advocating with free agency. That the KNICKS strategy should be to wait out the open market for a SuperStar. Ask some teams (Orlando lured Tmac and Grant Hill one summer) how that turned out. Karmically the Magic have never been the same.


i have no idea what post you're talking about, but i know i didn't make any comments calling anyone waiting around for the lottery as losers.

as for the other side of your argument, how has being capped out beyond all repair worked out for us over the past several years? any divisional titles to show for the money we've spent? any conference championships? any Finals appearances? any NBA titles? hell, any winning seasons for God's sakes???? why on earth would anyone in their right mind think that continuing along w/that same plan is any way to achieve longterm success? hasn't history & our own past mistakes taught you guys anything? am i the only one paying attention around here to how badly this team has failed to put together a contender over the past several years by going this route? for God's sake, there comes a time when you have to cut your losses & go another route when the one you've been following for the longest hasn't worked out.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
babyKnicks
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7/1/2007  9:28 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by kam77:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by kam77:


yo momma!


yo momma!

yo momma!

yo momma!

I'd say it's a tie!

Thanks for the good read fellas. RIP 4949
Let's go Knicks. That's amare
TMS
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7/1/2007  9:30 PM
Posted by kam77:

I already gave you the Lakers with SHAQ. The Lakers signed the Dominant MEGASTAR of his time on the Open Market. Do you have one other example? One more example of a max player who hit the open market and didn't re-sign with his team and then led his new team to a TITLE? Other than SHAQ?

other than Shaq there aren't any... just like there aren't any examples to cite to support your side of the argument except for Shaq being traded to MIA... what's your point? what's a better argument? saying that our current method of taking on contract after bloated contract is going to lead us to a championship, or that making moves to attain the cap & roster flexibility in the coming seasons to possibly acquire a megastar via free agency is a better way towards quicker longterm success?
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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7/1/2007  9:34 PM
Posted by babyKnicks:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by kam77:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by kam77:


yo momma!


yo momma!

yo momma!

yo momma!

I'd say it's a tie!

Thanks for the good read fellas. RIP 4949

dude, enough already with your wise crack comments that add zero to the discussions... you don't impress
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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7/1/2007  9:36 PM
Posted by kam77:
like i said, Isiah can manage to trade for Kobe in another deal, then i'll be perfectly fine w/the Zach trade... the whole goal for me is to acquire that franchise player to build around.

See, i misunderstood. I thought you were against the Zach trade. But seeing this... makes me think you're willing to be patient and see where this goes.


no, you're right, i am against the trade, unless Isiah manages to land himself a franchise star via trade... that's the whole reason behind me bringing up cap flexibility to begin with.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
nixluva
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7/1/2007  9:43 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by kam77:
like i said, Isiah can manage to trade for Kobe in another deal, then i'll be perfectly fine w/the Zach trade... the whole goal for me is to acquire that franchise player to build around.

See, i misunderstood. I thought you were against the Zach trade. But seeing this... makes me think you're willing to be patient and see where this goes.


no, you're right, i am against the trade, unless Isiah manages to land himself a franchise star via trade... that's the whole reason behind me bringing up cap flexibility to begin with.

So basically Isiah has to get either Duncan, Kobe, KG, DWade, Lebron, Oden or Durant? Who else are we really talking about as a Franchise star? Or do you mean another All Star level player? I believe if that's the case that Zach qualifies.
TrueBlue
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7/1/2007  9:45 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by kam77:
like i said, Isiah can manage to trade for Kobe in another deal, then i'll be perfectly fine w/the Zach trade... the whole goal for me is to acquire that franchise player to build around.

See, i misunderstood. I thought you were against the Zach trade. But seeing this... makes me think you're willing to be patient and see where this goes.


no, you're right, i am against the trade, unless Isiah manages to land himself a franchise star via trade... that's the whole reason behind me bringing up cap flexibility to begin with.

So basically Isiah has to get either Duncan, Kobe, KG, DWade, Lebron, Oden or Durant? Who else are we really talking about as a Franchise star? Or do you mean another All Star level player? I believe if that's the case that Zach qualifies.

You said I SAY UGH's plan was to land 3 of the aforementioned players you listed 2mos ago but all of a sudden it has changed.

We'd all appreciate if you would inform us if the plans have changed in advance.


THANKS!
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
TMS
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7/1/2007  9:50 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by kam77:
like i said, Isiah can manage to trade for Kobe in another deal, then i'll be perfectly fine w/the Zach trade... the whole goal for me is to acquire that franchise player to build around.

See, i misunderstood. I thought you were against the Zach trade. But seeing this... makes me think you're willing to be patient and see where this goes.


no, you're right, i am against the trade, unless Isiah manages to land himself a franchise star via trade... that's the whole reason behind me bringing up cap flexibility to begin with.

So basically Isiah has to get either Duncan, Kobe, KG, DWade, Lebron, Oden or Durant? Who else are we really talking about as a Franchise star? Or do you mean another All Star level player? I believe if that's the case that Zach qualifies.


in order to justify this Zach Randolph trade, yeah... otherwise i would have preferred we'd just bought out or let Francis' contract come off the books, or at the very least wait until next year when his contract would have better trade value so that he could make a play for someone who makes more sense for this franchise than a guy like Zach Randolph, who not only comes with all kinds of off the court baggage, but also doesn't solve any of the team's biggest needs that need to be filled & ISN'T good enough to be considered a player to build your franchise around either.

i think this is about the 20th time i've explained this to you in the past couple days & you're still asking me why i'm against this trade.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
nixluva
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7/1/2007  9:54 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by kam77:
like i said, Isiah can manage to trade for Kobe in another deal, then i'll be perfectly fine w/the Zach trade... the whole goal for me is to acquire that franchise player to build around.

See, i misunderstood. I thought you were against the Zach trade. But seeing this... makes me think you're willing to be patient and see where this goes.


no, you're right, i am against the trade, unless Isiah manages to land himself a franchise star via trade... that's the whole reason behind me bringing up cap flexibility to begin with.

So basically Isiah has to get either Duncan, Kobe, KG, DWade, Lebron, Oden or Durant? Who else are we really talking about as a Franchise star? Or do you mean another All Star level player? I believe if that's the case that Zach qualifies.

You said I SAY UGH's plan was to land 3 of the aforementioned players you listed 2mos ago but all of a sudden it has changed.

We'd all appreciate if you would inform us if the plans have changed in advance.


THANKS!

Get it right! I said that one of his options was to do that. I also said that he could stand pat and wait 2 years. You just love to try and make it seem like i've settled on one thing and harped on that when I never did anything like that. If done what many others ahve done and that's bring up the many different moves that Isiah could make to try and improve the team. No one has a crystal ball or can get into his head and know exactly what he's gonna do. Danny Ainge said that he was gonna keep is #5 pick, go figure.
BlueSeats
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7/1/2007  10:03 PM
Posted by babyKnicks:
Posted by BlueSeats:


blah blah blah..i hate the knicks.

same old post.


same old hoss
kam77
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7/1/2007  10:04 PM
i have no idea what post you're talking about, but i know i didn't make any comments calling anyone waiting around for the lottery as losers.

It was a quote someone made a few weeks ago and is in someone's sig. I just wanted to refer to that post to talk about waiting around for lady luck (lottery or that rare free agent) in any sense is not much of a strategy. Luck didn't smile on Memphis or Boston like it should have this year. It never does. Neither do we have a bumper crop of free agents this year. If we had cap space RIGHT NOW, there is no Free Agent we could get thats better than Zach Randolph. Rashard Lewis? He's okay. He isn't worth MAX dollars.

I know you want us to make moves to get below the cap. We all do. But lets talk about goals. Cap flexibility is not a worthy goal when you blow it on re-signing Zydranus Ilgauskus and then luring Larry Hughes for max money. Now at the time, people were praising the use of cap space. But now that they've USED it up, they're just as screwed as any team that is still looking for that elusive second franchise player.

We got some pieces now (EC,DLEE,ZR) we can trade or let play together. Its not like Steve Francis who had no playing value. All our guys have value in the frontcourt.

[Edited by - kam77 on 07-01-2007 10:05 PM]
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
nixluva
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7/1/2007  10:05 PM
Posted by TMS:

in order to justify this Zach Randolph trade, yeah... otherwise i would have preferred we'd just bought out or let Francis' contract come off the books, or at the very least wait until next year when his contract would have better trade value so that he could make a play for someone who makes more sense for this franchise than a guy like Zach Randolph, who not only comes with all kinds of off the court baggage, but also doesn't solve any of the team's biggest needs that need to be filled & ISN'T good enough to be considered a player to build your franchise around either.

i think this is about the 20th time i've explained this to you in the past couple days & you're still asking me why i'm against this trade.

Perhaps TMS cuz it's really hard to get your point. We already have 2 guys that can be considered the franchise in Zach and Curry and Steph is still here as well. That's 3 guys who can bring it on any given night. There's still a chance that Isiah could pull off a trade for a better SG or SF, but if he doesn't I don't think that this team is somehow doomed to failure. It also doesn't make the trade for Zach a bad trade. I believe that Isiah is gonna do everything he can to try and get more help but if he can't make a deal right now, he's at least made some progress towards the goal of building a contender. To me some progress is better than none.

The options were to stand pat and wait for a chance to open up cap space, then hope we can convince a Stud to jump ship or make a deal to improve things now and build up enough talent to make it possible to make a good trade down the line. All the while being able to win more games in the process. I can understand Isiah's logic. This is preferable in terms of business and basketball.

[Edited by - nixluva on 07-01-2007 10:08 PM]
BlueSeats
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7/1/2007  10:13 PM
Posted by babyKnicks:

to be honest, anyone that thinks the lotto (real or sports related) is the answer to their prayers does have some problems.

Ah, so you not only don't care for free agency, but you're against the draft lottery too?

Just so you know, there are really only three main ways to position yourself for talent in the NBA: trades, the draft and free agency, and you're comfortable hindering yourself in two of the three. Plus, a payroll bloated with undesirable contracts even hinders you in trades, so, for the sake of "all koolaid all the time," you advocate limiting our advantage in every avenue of team building.

Nice.
TMS
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7/1/2007  10:17 PM
Posted by kam77:
i have no idea what post you're talking about, but i know i didn't make any comments calling anyone waiting around for the lottery as losers.

It was a quote someone made a few weeks ago and is in someone's sig. I just wanted to refer to that post to talk about waiting around for lady luck (lottery or that rare free agent) in any sense is not much of a strategy. Luck didn't smile on Memphis or Boston like it should have this year. It never does. Neither do we have a bumper crop of free agents this year. If we had cap space RIGHT NOW, there is no Free Agent we could get thats better than Zach Randolph. Rashard Lewis? He's okay. He isn't worth MAX dollars.

I know you want us to make moves to get below the cap. We all do. But lets talk about goals. Cap flexibility is not a worthy goal when you blow it on re-signing Zydranus Ilgauskus and then luring Larry Hughes for max money. Now at the time, people were praising the use of cap space. But now that they've USED it up, they're just as screwed as any team that is still looking for that elusive second franchise player.

We got some pieces now (EC,DLEE,ZR) we can trade or let play together. Its not like Steve Francis who had no playing value. All our guys have value in the frontcourt.

[Edited by - kam77 on 07-01-2007 10:05 PM]


we could have easily waited out another season & tried to unload Francis next year for a player who fits our needs better than Zach Randolph... his contract would have had much more value as an expiring contract... & we'd also still have Frye who we could trade as another piece as well... you'd have Malik, Marbury & Francis all coming off the books after next year, so you'd have some pieces to deal in a trade that teams might be interested in... now we're pretty much stuck with Zach Randolph for better or worse for the next 3 years at the bare minimum... please don't tell me Isiah will be able to trade Zach Randolph in any deals to get a megastar player, because the Blazers wouldn't have unloaded him on us for Francis & Frye this year if he carried that kind of value... bottomline, i don't believe acquiring Zach Randolph is going to vault this team to true contender status... unless Isiah can make another trade to bring in another star calibre player, then all this amounts to is just another high profile trade that nets us empty results to get the fans excited about another mediocre to bad season at the Garden... i like the fact that he got 2 expiring contracts in Dickau & Jones, i'll say that much in his defense... if he can get someone like Artest using those expirings, then i'll be a lot more happier about this trade seeing as how our cap is screwed regardless... this is not me hating on this deal because Isiah made it... i've supported several other moves he's made as Knicks GM in the past... i gotta call it the way i see it, just like you're doing in his defense.


[Edited by - TMS on 07-01-2007 10:19 PM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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7/1/2007  10:24 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by TMS:

in order to justify this Zach Randolph trade, yeah... otherwise i would have preferred we'd just bought out or let Francis' contract come off the books, or at the very least wait until next year when his contract would have better trade value so that he could make a play for someone who makes more sense for this franchise than a guy like Zach Randolph, who not only comes with all kinds of off the court baggage, but also doesn't solve any of the team's biggest needs that need to be filled & ISN'T good enough to be considered a player to build your franchise around either.

i think this is about the 20th time i've explained this to you in the past couple days & you're still asking me why i'm against this trade.

Perhaps TMS cuz it's really hard to get your point. We already have 2 guys that can be considered the franchise in Zach and Curry and Steph is still here as well. That's 3 guys who can bring it on any given night. There's still a chance that Isiah could pull off a trade for a better SG or SF, but if he doesn't I don't think that this team is somehow doomed to failure. It also doesn't make the trade for Zach a bad trade. I believe that Isiah is gonna do everything he can to try and get more help but if he can't make a deal right now, he's at least made some progress towards the goal of building a contender. To me some progress is better than none.

The options were to stand pat and wait for a chance to open up cap space, then hope we can convince a Stud to jump ship or make a deal to improve things now and build up enough talent to make it possible to make a good trade down the line. All the while being able to win more games in the process. I can understand Isiah's logic. This is preferable in terms of business and basketball.

[Edited by - nixluva on 07-01-2007 10:08 PM]

i don't doubt the fact that Isiah's TRYING to improve this team... i just don't agree w/some of the moves he's making in order to do it... i believe taking on albatross contracts of players that are not worthy of max dollars like Zach Randolph inhibits Isiah's ability to make the kind of real impact moves that i think he needs to make in order to get us to being a legit contender in this league... really not that hard to comprehend.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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kosmovitelli masterpiece: A typical Isiah trade
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