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JO Wants to Be A Knick?
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highfivesucka
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5/8/2007  1:36 PM
SAS is about to talk about this after they talk to mike brown. he basically said it: They are going to want DLee. no way something like this happens without Lee involved. no thx.
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TrueBlue
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5/8/2007  1:42 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by BigSm00th:

how did the suns bend over the knicks for marbury? we gave them a bunch of trash and expiring contracts and got the piece isiah wanted to build with in marbury. what, you guys still upset about milos vujanic and maciej? gimme a break.

the key was dumping penny's deal in the process (just like the bulls dumped jyd's in the process for crawford). the cap space we provided phoenix allowed them to make a run at kobe + manu, who both turned them down, then went after nash and q.

if we don't take penny, then the suns probably don't make the deal. so did taking penny back hurt the knicks? no, b/c we were going to be way over the cap anyway. but the suns sure as hell got exactly what they wanted while the benefits yielded on our end were 2 extra home playoff games in 2004.


Any trade made that doesn't make you better at the very least the following yr and thereafter is a bad trade. Our record since the Marbury trade has been Abysmal. Actually the trade has made us worse.

So is the final conclusion.... Steve yields J.O. we win..... Steve gets bought out this summer pull the cactus out from our Bung?
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
Nalod
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5/8/2007  2:07 PM
Ok, now we have discussed the "Isiah Miricle" and how he was able to do the impossible which was to dismantle the folley we call "laydens team".

YOu can spend your way out of anything which is suppose to add instant result but in fact you pave the team you "bend over" for to long term improvement.

JO is an expensive piece and its important for Indy to talk tough to state:

1. We send him were we want to.
2. Must protect tix holders and claim "we can only do it to make team better, or:
3. Get equal value in return!

One can't have a player dictate this kind of crap.

If I were Bird I'd state we have floundered with him, and we can flounder without him but rebuild with a purpose!!!!

If we could only be so bold.

Only in the NBA can you get Curry, Craw and Marbury, pay them almost 50 mil and get worse over time.

If Isiah kept Reezy, he could have drafted Marcus Will. Thus, no Francis and that salary, Reezy and Dlee with Williams in the wings.

On the ohter hand, JO if he were not to shoulder the low post could be an effective weak side defender, rebounder, and with midrange jumper (not pound it down) could extend his health. Might have to give up DLee. I think Frye might work better for the Pacers though. We have lower value on Frye than perhaps others might.
islesfan
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5/8/2007  2:07 PM
Posted by BigSm00th:

isles, true blue, my entire post was concluded with "if JO demands a trade to NY." i think you missed that.

how did the suns bend over the knicks for marbury? we gave them a bunch of trash and expiring contracts and got the piece isiah wanted to build with in marbury. what, you guys still upset about milos vujanic and maciej? gimme a break.

i think enough have been talked about re: the magic and that deal. what, we gave up an expiring contract which larry brown apparently wanted yadda yadda yadda, what'd we lose? penny, who retired, and ariza, who has been supplanted by balkman and lee. and now if francis yields JO, you still gonna be bitching?

the raptors trade was stupid.

the bulls trade he got bent over. he also got bent over by the agents of jerome james and jared jeffries.

that's a .500 track record to me. most of his moves are misguided (francis) and/or don't help the team (rose). to me, this is neither.

My response to your post was based on "if JO demanded a trade". The point is that JO can demand whatever he wants. He still doesn't have any leverage in this situation because he has 3 years left on his contract.

What's JO's recourse if the Pacers tell him that they aren't trading him? He can sit out but then he doesn't make a cent and they can sue him for breach of contract and try to recover monies already given to him, a la Ricky Williams and the Dolphins. He can be a malcontent and be disruptive but then the Pacers can suspend him. Or he can be like KG and play while hoping a trade comes sooner rather than later.

BigSm00th, who do you think has the leverage if JO "demands a trade" and why?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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5/8/2007  2:11 PM
How did the Suns bend over the Knicks for Marbury?

Gee, I dunno. How about giving up two potential unprotected lottery picks and taking back around $200 million in contracts? All for a player that will be far over the hill and probably won't be here when Isiah thinks his "rebuild" will be ready to compete. A player whose replacement already needs to be addressed.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
RemBee76
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5/8/2007  2:16 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
So is the final conclusion.... Steve yields J.O. we win..... Steve gets bought out this summer pull the cactus out from our Bung?

Thanks for dumbing things down for us Trueblue. Now, can we get a translation of the above?

Marbury hasn't made us worse. That’s just a ridiculous statement. Marbury didn't make us worse when he took a 9-19 team to the playoffs, he didn't make us worse when he made Brown look good carrying the team to the few wins it got that year, and he certainly didn't make us worse last year.

Now you can argue that trying to rebuild with youth as Houston broke down would have been the way to go, instead of adding two years to the time we will be above the cap in order to try and keep things afloat. You would be right, just as you would have been right two years before that, but that isn't the way this organization operates.

Marbury's tenure here didn't meet expectations...partly because the guys he was brought in to play with changed, partly because he clashed with his coaches, and partly because he simply isn't the franchise player some fans seemed to think he should be.

He has, I think, done a good job being a solid veteran presence, if not leader, for the young guys we are bringing along.

Marbury isn't going to be here in two years, and may be gone before that. More relevant question...What do we do then?

Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
islesfan
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5/8/2007  2:20 PM
He has, I think, done a good job being a solid veteran presence, if not leader, for the young guys we are bringing along.

Malik Rose is a solid veteran presence. Marbury took 3 years and 5 head coaches before he finally decided to listen to his head coach and play more of a team oriented game. That's basically the exact opposite of "leadership".
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TrueBlue
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5/8/2007  2:47 PM
He has, I think, done a good job being a solid veteran presence, if not leader, for the young guys we are bringing along.

Marbury isn't going to be here in two years, and may be gone before that. More relevant question...What do we do then?


Yikes is that the going rate for such a player? 2 unprotected lottery picks and taking on bloated salary that luxury taxed this franchise to a blugeon. Isn't he partly responsible for the coaching salary that's still on the books? Obviously you aren't measuring this team on W-L, just pointing fingers in every direction possible.


What warped universe do you live in?

LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
RemBee76
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5/8/2007  2:55 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
What warped universe do you live in?

The same warped universe, perhaps, where we think we gave up two unprotected picks for Marbury, or that he was responsible for the firing of five coaches, or that Dolan (or the rest of this organization) gives a flying fart about the luxury tax.

On this board, apparently, it is more acceptable to be abusive and obtuse than passive aggressive and priggish. Noted.

I think I did say Marbury's tenure here wasn't a success. We gave up two picks (one heavily protected) and a handful of youth that never amounted to anything to pair Marbury with a 20 ppg shooting guard whose game was nicely suited for the drive and dish-out point.

Now, what warped universe do you live in if you think that would not have made us a better team?
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
TrueBlue
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5/8/2007  3:10 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by TrueBlue:
What warped universe do you live in?

The same warped universe, perhaps, where we think we gave up two unprotected picks for Marbury, or that he was responsible for the firing of five coaches, or that Dolan (or the rest of this organization) gives a flying fart about the luxury tax.

On this board, apparently, it is more acceptable to be abusive and obtuse than passive aggressive and priggish. Noted.

I think I did say Marbury's tenure here wasn't a success. We gave up two picks (one heavily protected) and a handful of youth that never amounted to anything to pair Marbury with a 20 ppg shooting guard whose game was nicely suited for the drive and dish-out point.

Now, what warped universe do you live in if you think that would not have made us a better team?


It's not about "would not have", you could say that about every trade that's made that fails. It's about what did happen we lost on the trade badly. At best we wouldn't have been better than a .500 basketball team. And if you're telling me Allan Houston (who was clearly on the back half of his career) goes down with a career ending injury (only to be replaced by who many feel is the irreplaceable Crawford) makes this franchise go Kaput then what did we have really? What do we have now since Crawford doesn't equal Houston?
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
sebstar
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5/8/2007  3:18 PM
How did this thread become a referendum on every move zeke has made in the past? Damn.. Staying on topic, I guess TrueBlue and Islesfan feel that paying a player upwards of 70 million dollars, when said player clearly wants out, is sound business sense.

There are a plenty more examples of star players orchestrating trades --- from Barkley, to A.I, Shaq and everyone in between than the ones you provided in the opposite direction...its just interesting that the biggest pessimists on the board are practically bristling at the notion of this speculative trade. I guess thats just a coincidence.

Since I'm here, the Marbury trade was fine. We got a player in his prime that was putting up HOF numbers. We absorbed some salary, but we gave up middle of the road prospects and middle of the road draft picks. Granted, we havent won much with Marbury but the trade in a vacuum was a positive one.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
RemBee76
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5/8/2007  3:24 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
At best we wouldn't have been better than a .500 basketball team.

Easily debatable, as we were a better than .500 basketball team with Marbury paired with Houston.

And if you're telling me Allan Houston...goes down with a career ending injury...makes this franchise go Kaput then what did we have really?

We had a team that would have done exactly what Isiah intended it to do, a team that would have satisfied the demands of its owner and fan-base while reloading for a future via the draft.

A real future, not one built on an overhyped euro point who never came over, or an overhyped euro big man who never caught on in the NBA.

Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
RemBee76
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5/8/2007  3:26 PM
Posted by sebstar:
its just interesting that the biggest pessimists on the board are practically bristling at the notion of this speculative trade. I guess thats just a coincidence.

Right.

Though on this I happen to agree...no package that doesn't include Lee will even be discussed.
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
TrueBlue
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5/8/2007  3:34 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by TrueBlue:
At best we wouldn't have been better than a .500 basketball team.

Easily debatable, as we were a better than .500 basketball team with Marbury paired with Houston.

And if you're telling me Allan Houston...goes down with a career ending injury...makes this franchise go Kaput then what did we have really?

We had a team that would have done exactly what Isiah intended it to do, a team that would have satisfied the demands of its owner and fan-base while reloading for a future via the draft.

A real future, not one built on an overhyped euro point who never came over, or an overhyped euro big man who never caught on in the NBA.


Who's done this?...... and

Uhhhhh you do realize that some of the best players that are competing right now for a championship are Euro or Non American.......Tim Duncan, Diaw, Barbosa, Ginobli, Parker, Biedrins, Memet Okur, Andre Kirelinko, Sasha Pavlovic, Anderson Varejo, Big Z, Nenad Kristic(would be if healthy), Andres Nocioni, Luol Deng, Ben Gordon if you count the fact he's British born.

LOL!


[Edited by - TrueBlue on 05-08-2007 2:39 PM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
RemBee76
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5/8/2007  3:38 PM
No Milos Vujanic or Maciej Lampe on that list? Right.

Trueblue....get a clue.
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
Masterplan
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5/8/2007  3:39 PM

Posted by sebstar:
its just interesting that the biggest pessimists on the board are practically bristling at the notion of this speculative trade. I guess thats just a coincidence.

it probably has to do with the amount of faith different posters have in IT making a smart trade and not getting fleeced.
TrueBlue
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5/8/2007  3:43 PM
Posted by RemBee76:

No Milos Vujanic or Maciej Lampe on that list? Right.

Trueblue....get a clue.

So because we tried and failed then it's futile and can't be done? And do you honestly feel we were trying to build around them?

I left off a few other players that were bounced in the first round.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
RemBee76
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5/8/2007  3:47 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
And do you honestly feel we were trying to build around them?

Tell me, TB, what was Scott Layden trying to do?

Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
RemBee76
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5/8/2007  3:51 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
So because we tried and failed then it's futile and can't be done?

As for this...

Sorry TB, I simply know no more diplomatic way to say this...Only an idiot would think that I was saying you can not have success with European players.
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
Masterplan
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5/8/2007  3:53 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by TrueBlue:
And do you honestly feel we were trying to build around them?

Tell me, TB, what was Scott Layden trying to do?

um, back on subject a bit... i wish i knew what IT was doing. are we building around curry and our youth? or are we still chasing stars on the market? or is he just helping out his friends - JO/west side of chicago boys?

[Edited by - Masterplan on 05-08-2007 3:53 PM]
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