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Despite Popular Belief, Curry Doesn't Get Enough Touches
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highfivesucka
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5/6/2007  11:58 AM
the problem with curry though is that isn't he learning things in his 6th/7th year that most guys learn in their first 2-3 years? I'm not saying he doesn't have the ability to improve more but how likely is it that he'll make up for all that lost time within the next year or so?
^precocious neophyte.
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4949
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5/6/2007  12:16 PM
Posted by highfivesucka:

the problem with curry though is that isn't he learning things in his 6th/7th year that most guys learn in their first 2-3 years? I'm not saying he doesn't have the ability to improve more but how likely is it that he'll make up for all that lost time within the next year or so?

Very good point. Some people are willing to put all they have into a players potential, even if it means waiting ten years just to get that 'one' good year out of him. All so they can finally say 'they told you so'.
I'll never trust this' team again.
McK1
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5/6/2007  3:33 PM
Posted by nixluva:



YAO IS OVERATED!!! You look at his in season stats and you think he's this great Center, but he's really not. I think Curry is gonna pass him soon, cuz for much of the year Curry was avg'ing over 20 a game.



before making such claims lets see how housto's next coach utiiles a 7'5 center who has the ability to score both outside and inside and can pass out of the post as well
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
djsunyc
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5/6/2007  3:49 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by bobs3304:

^ Yao averaged 9 boards a game.


Where do you get your stats from boy.

Boob, I made a boo boo. I did a 'quick' look up on the official Rockets site and failed to notice that what I was looking at were the playoff stats. Let me correct myself here. The scoring was not off by that much. Yao with 25 a game and McGrady 24.4 a game. Yeah, Yao had 9.4 boards a game, but still, I stand by what I said. Don't get so excited. He's still better than your 'boy' Curry.

[Edited by - 4949 on 05-05-2007 10:30 PM]

YAO IS OVERATED!!! You look at his in season stats and you think he's this great Center, but he's really not. I think Curry is gonna pass him soon, cuz for much of the year Curry was avg'ing over 20 a game.

have you seen the type of pressure and scrutiny that's been on yao ming since the 1st day he entered the league? the guy is followed by a SWARM of reporters everywhere he goes. he must do twice the interviews than anybody else. he's representing an entire country, and possibly an entire continent.

if yao is overrated, then you are severely overrating curry b/c he has yet to make the playoffs his entire career. while yao has yet to miss them.
nixluva
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5/7/2007  12:08 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

have you seen the type of pressure and scrutiny that's been on yao ming since the 1st day he entered the league? the guy is followed by a SWARM of reporters everywhere he goes. he must do twice the interviews than anybody else. he's representing an entire country, and possibly an entire continent.

if yao is overrated, then you are severely overrating curry b/c he has yet to make the playoffs his entire career. while yao has yet to miss them.

Man I'm well aware of Yao's situation, that's not really what i'm getting at. Once he's on the court all that stuff is background noise. No one else get's any slack for the stress of their personal situation. Other NBA guys are the face of basketball for their respective country. The thing is that he's a good player, but I think he's overrated. I have yet to see him step up and get his team over the hump. It's not like Yao is getting his team to the Playoffs all by himself. That team wins more due to TMac's heroics than what Yao does. We can't give Yao a pass for his failure to help his team to advance when he's got another young superstar out there with him.

It's just my opinion, but I think Curry's will eventually be a more effective bigman in the playoffs than Yao has been. Eddy doesn't have a TMac, so it's a bit unfair to make that full comparison, but we'll see how things go next year.
bobs3304
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5/7/2007  12:23 AM
^ Yao will always be the more effective defender and passer...


Rebounding and scoring is kind of up in the air, with edges going to Yao.

[Edited by - bobs3304 on 05-07-2007 12:24 AM]
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
NineMike2Whiskey
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5/7/2007  2:39 AM
Yao's an enigma, i saw him once spin Kurt Thomas baseline and dunked. In that same game he got stuffed on by Spoon. He's fundamentally sound has legit range up to 18 feet but he's just soft.

Comparing his rebouding effort to Curry as is is laughable though, what the stats doesnt show is Yao throwing his clumsy ass in the air tipping balls to his team mates or him blocking out and letting his more athletic team mates scoop up the rebounds. He knows he's one of the slower centres in the league on the defensive end but he tries to overcome it with effort.

Curry just doesnt try, i mean i'm not a hater and i love him when he's on fire but the kid just doesnt try.
JesseDark
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5/7/2007  8:37 AM
Curry has to be more more efficent with the touches he does get. That doesn't mean shooting every time. Like that baseball video for little leaguers "Where's the Play", he has to know when to make the correct play in the post.
Bring back dee-fense
Bonn1997
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5/7/2007  10:04 AM
It would nice to see a points per possession stat for individual players that takes into account TOs and FTs. I can only find the stat at the team level. Maybe Tomverve or someone else can point me in the right direction. That's really the key stat on the issue of whether Curry warrants more touches.
franco12
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5/7/2007  10:11 AM
I don't understand how anyone can think Curry needs more touches. The whole offense ran through him. And when it did, ball movement stopped. Players stopped moving. Teams collapsed, and turnover ensued.

He needs less touches, but he needs to be set up better. The entry pass must go in when he is in position. And he must learn to be a better passer.

More touches for Curry?

Look at all the teams still playing.

What do they have in common?

Ball movement and team ball- with the possible exception of LeBrons Cavaliers- I just haven't watched enough of them to make that statement.

San Antonio, Phoenix, NJ, Detroit, Utah all play team offense- they move the ball.

And no one player dominates the ball on offense like Curry does except possibly Duncan.

And Curry ain't Duncan.

Dunkin Donoughts yes, Tim Duncan NO!
RemBee76
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5/7/2007  11:46 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

It would nice to see a points per possession stat for individual players that takes into account TOs and FTs. I can only find the stat at the team level. Maybe Tomverve or someone else can point me in the right direction. That's really the key stat on the issue of whether Curry warrants more touches.


I think player efficiency ratings take this into account. But it isn't too hard to look at basic stats and come up with a rough rating that can be used to compare players.

Again, remembering that this is rough, lets compare Curry to Yao Ming using an intuitive positive-stat/attempts(touches) ratio. To come up with a somewhat fictional but illustrative number for touches add up FGA with TO (which includes those possessions lost due to offensive fouls). Then add up Field Goals Made, assists and free-throw attempts (yes, two free throws can come from a single possession but this can still serve as a basis for comparison unless one guy has, for example, a disproportionate number of "and 1s") and set that number over attempts to get the ratio. The higher the number, the more efficient the player’s possessions.

Eddy Curry: 7.2 fgm + 0.8 assists + 8.1 fta / 12.5 attempts + 3.6 tos = 1.00

Yao Ming: 8.8 fgm + 2.0 assists + 8.6 fta / 17.1 attempts + 3.5 tos = 0.94

Of course, Yao Ming hits a whole lot more of his free-throws and these stats should probably incorporate that, but as there is value in just getting to the line I'm leaving it as is for now.

Just for fun:

Zaza Pachulia: 4.0 fgm + 1.5 assists + 5.2 fta / 8.5 fga + 2.3 tos = 0.99
Andrew Bynum: 3 + 1.1 + 2.6 / 5.4 + 1.4 = 0.98
Tyson Chandler: 4.0 + 0.9 + 2.8 /6.4 + 1.7 = 0.95
Al Jefferson: 6.6 + 1.3 + 4.3 / 12.8 + 2.0 = 0.82
Shaq: 7.1 + 2.0 + 7.3 / 12.0 + 2.4 = 1.14
Ben Wallace: 2.5 + 2.4 + 3.5 / 5.5 + 1.3 = 1.23

Jamal Crawford: 6.0 + 4.4 + 4.6 / 15 + 2.7 = 0.85

Does all this mean anything? I don't know, and I'm sure tomverve will soon tell us it doesn't while pointing out some fatal flaw in the thinking. You do need to take the type of offensive possessions into account. Ben Wallace looks more efficient than even Shaq because his points are more opportunistic. His assists are impressive though.

Now que Bippity to point out that Curry only gets 7 rebounds a game. The floor is yours...


Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
RemBee76
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5/7/2007  11:50 AM
And of course, I should point out that the stats above do demonstrate an obvious point:

Curry should get more attempts than Crawford.
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
Bonn1997
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5/7/2007  12:34 PM
Eddy Curry: 7.2 fgm + 0.8 assists + 8.1 fta / 12.5 attempts + 3.6 tos = 1.00
The left side of the equation should be free throws made (you're counting points scored on the left) and the right side should include free throws attempted (you're counting total opportunities on the right)
RemBee76
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5/7/2007  12:43 PM
That would be another variant, but it would stray from the intent of the stat.

We're looking at how effective a player is when he gets the ball. Drawing fouls is a positive, whether you hit the free-throws or not, and are the direct result of making a player the focus of a possession. So it doesn't make sense, in that context, to have free-throw attempts added to field goal attempts.

You could take points into account, which includes made free-throws, and come up with a points/possession statistic. But that’s a different (though related) stat.
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
Bonn1997
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5/7/2007  3:22 PM
Posted by RemBee76:

That would be another variant, but it would stray from the intent of the stat.

We're looking at how effective a player is when he gets the ball. Drawing fouls is a positive, whether you hit the free-throws or not, and are the direct result of making a player the focus of a possession. So it doesn't make sense, in that context, to have free-throw attempts added to field goal attempts.

You could take points into account, which includes made free-throws, and come up with a points/possession statistic. But that’s a different (though related) stat.
I think that would be a much better stat. All teams get more than one point per possession on average. So you're hurting your team if you only make one out of two free throws and definitely hurting it if you miss both. Points per possession (my stat) is the one all the top statistical sites use for team-level comparisons. I just can't find any that do it for individual players.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 05-07-2007 3:23 PM]
RemBee76
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5/7/2007  4:12 PM
Well, if you make the comparison between Yao and Curry in terms of points/ possession (again, getting the possession number by adding fga to to's) they are actually identical, 1.21 pts per possession, this despite the gaping difference in free-throw shooting percentage.

So bringing the discussion back, looking at this rough stat, it would certainly appear that Curry deserves more touches and is not getting force fed by Isiah to improve his numbers.
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
Bonn1997
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5/7/2007  7:22 PM
So bringing the discussion back, looking at this rough stat, it would certainly appear that Curry deserves more touches
Or that Yao's getting too many touches because he's on a 2-man team
RemBee76
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5/8/2007  9:39 AM
Yao getting too many touches?

Backed yourself into a corner on that one, bon-bon. 25 ppg on 51% shooting, shoots 8.6 free-throws per game (more than any other center right ahead of Curry) while hitting them at an 86% clip...he gets too many touches why, because he has a turnover or so more than Houston might like...?

Really?

Or is this the now fashionable notion that a 2-man team doesn't win championships, denying the last 30 years of NBA history because Golden State beat Dallas...?

Really?

You said it yourself, more than 1 pt per possession you are not hurting your team. 1.21 per you are probably helping. The Knicks, so you know, average out at 1.03 per using the same method. Or are we arguing now that Shaq gets too many touches (1.22 on the championship winning Heat last year)...?

Really?
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
kam77
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5/8/2007  5:20 PM
Only Malik and Jamal have shown they know how to get the ball to Eddy. Francis and Eddy should never be on the floor together i don't think Francis could make an entry pass to save his life. No wonder they got rid of him when Yao emerged.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
martin
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5/8/2007  5:36 PM
Posted by kam77:

Only Malik and Jamal have shown they know how to get the ball to Eddy. Francis and Eddy should never be on the floor together i don't think Francis could make an entry pass to save his life. No wonder they got rid of him when Yao emerged.

unfor, Francis and Marb are the same. Count him in too.
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