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Why does Isiah still have supporters despite his 119-182 record with the Knicks?
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TrueBlue
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5/1/2007  12:06 PM
Posted by RemBee76:

Pure diversion? Hardly, unless you think the timeframe within which you have to build a team is irrelevent.

The truth is, it isn't, and part of the problem here is that people expect the Knicks to operate like they are a small market team in Georgia. Yet we can't, and we have fans who boo ten games into a season and vacate the Garden like its sinking and think a team that has been building for two years should show more "credible" progress than a team that has been building for fifteen.

Diversion? Thems the facts.


Give most GM's an avg of 5-7yrs to become a consistent playoff team and I guarantee 25 of 30 GM's accomplish this feat.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 05-01-2007 11:09 AM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
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Bippity10
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5/1/2007  12:07 PM
Posted by RemBee76:

Pure diversion? Hardly, unless you think the timeframe within which you have to build a team is irrelevent.

The truth is, it isn't, and part of the problem here is that people expect the Knicks to operate like they are a small market team in Georgia. Yet we can't, and we have fans who boo ten games into a season and vacate the Garden like its sinking and think a team that has been building for two years should show more "credible" progress than a team that has been building for fifteen.

Diversion? Thems the facts.

I think the problem is half the fans break it down to Isiah vs. Laydne and where we are now as opposed to then. And the rest of the fans measure the entire time frame from the day we lost Patrick and needed to rebuild. That's 7 years. Put that against the backdrop of over 30 years without a title and you start to see where fans are coming from. Fans see us operating unlike any other franchise, see no results and yes they get antsy. For once put a proven winner in the GM chair and let him work. We refuse.
I just hope that people will like me
Andrew
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5/1/2007  12:07 PM
Vacate the garden? What percentage were the Knicks in terms of Cablevisions overall bottom line?
PURE KNICKS LOVE
djsunyc
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5/1/2007  12:09 PM
Posted by RemBee76:

Pure diversion? Hardly, unless you think the timeframe within which you have to build a team is irrelevent.

The truth is, it isn't, and part of the problem here is that people expect the Knicks to operate like they are a small market team in Georgia. Yet we can't, and we have fans who boo ten games into a season and vacate the Garden like its sinking and think a team that has been building for two years should show more "credible" progress than a team that has been building for fifteen.

Diversion? Thems the facts.

considering we ARE starting to pare payroll (no MLE's) and we are trying to develop from within with our youth, it does start to look like we are operating like a small market team in georgia.

and considering there's about 3,000 people that go to games in atlanta, as opposed to 19,000 here, it seems like knicks fan are alot more supportive than you would think.
Bonn1997
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5/1/2007  12:10 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by Bonn1997:
we've used up all our assets

Funny, thats what they said after the Marbury trade, then the Crawford trade, then the Curry trade...
And they were right! The only assets we had left were ones that helped us to build a team that lost almost 110 games over the last two years.

islesfan
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5/1/2007  12:10 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by djsunyc:

the "wait and see" camp vs. the "where's the evidence" camp

An impossible fight, true, as the only evidence the "where's the evidence" camp will accept are wins and by then the fights already over.

No, evidence would also include players whose upside is greater than role players off the bench or complementary players.

Evidence would also include having the means to acquire the type of players that you build a contender around.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
RemBee76
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5/1/2007  12:22 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
For once put a proven winner in the GM chair and let him work. We refuse.

A proven winner of a GM probably would have told us we needed to rebuild after the 1999-2000 season. Back then he might have taken the job, too.

A proven winner of a GM would have told us we needed to sit tight while loosing and shedding salary for four years after 2003. He would have been nuts to take the job then.

Neither directive was ever a possibility, because of the fans who don't suffer the loss of wins, and an owner who can't suffer the loss in revenue.

So who should you really be railing against, Bip?
it does start to look like we are operating like a small market team in georgia.

Not hardly, Kam. Because the pressure is still on to win now. Or haven't you been reading what you are writing?
at the end of the day, W's are the only tangible measure for success.






Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
Masterplan
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5/1/2007  12:33 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by djsunyc:

the "wait and see" camp vs. the "where's the evidence" camp

An impossible fight, true, as the only evidence the "where's the evidence" camp will accept are wins and by then the fights already over.

i disagree. i guess i fall into the "where's the evidence" camp (it's more diplomatic-sounding than "hater"), but i feel there are indications well before the final record. i love a lot of these players, inclduing some of the less popular ones like nate and jamal. i would forgive a string of bad games if we showed we were capable of stretches of very good play to balance them out. i want a few significant win streaks, stretches where we win much more than we lose. that's all it would take to get me excited about our prospects for having a winning team in a given season.

memory and a quick scan of this season's results show that:

our longest streaks were 3 games (twice). any decent team should be able to go on a winning tear. hell, even boston and philly put together 7 game win streaks this season.

as per my quick look, our best 10 game stretches never beat 6-4. and those were not frequent, either - one stretch in december and a few overlapping periods in february. you can double check, but i'm 99% sure that's accurate. that flat out sucks. we HAVE to show the resolve to do better to have a team with a shot at making let alone advancing in the playoffs.

i don't think it's unreasonable to doubt this team's ability and drive to win until it can win more than three games in a row and/or go 7-3 or even 8-2 for some brief stretch. until they do that no point getting excited about anything but the draft. my 2 cents.
Masterplan
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5/1/2007  12:35 PM
Posted by RemBee76:

Not hardly, Kam. Because the pressure is still on to win now. Or haven't you been reading what you are writing?
at the end of the day, W's are the only tangible measure for success.

see my above post...
Bippity10
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5/1/2007  12:52 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by Bippity10:
For once put a proven winner in the GM chair and let him work. We refuse.

A proven winner of a GM probably would have told us we needed to rebuild after the 1999-2000 season. Back then he might have taken the job, too.

A proven winner of a GM would have told us we needed to sit tight while loosing and shedding salary for four years after 2003. He would have been nuts to take the job then.

Neither directive was ever a possibility, because of the fans who don't suffer the loss of wins, and an owner who can't suffer the loss in revenue.

So who should you really be railing against, Bip?
it does start to look like we are operating like a small market team in georgia.

Not hardly, Kam. Because the pressure is still on to win now. Or haven't you been reading what you are writing?
at the end of the day, W's are the only tangible measure for success.




See I disagree with you. Saying the fans are the reason we can't rebuild is an excuse. Fans are always upset when we lose. The past five or six years is more evidence that we can rebuild in NY. We have accomplished very little, have had losing season after losing season and the place has not collapsed. So this notion that you can't rebuild in NY is just something people spew out without really viewing the evidence. If you put a line-up on the floor and have a clear direction, fans will whine and complain but the situation would be no worse than it is today.

Now if you want me to rail against Dolan. I'm with you. He's included in teh "management" tag that I use. He is mostly to blame. But I also blame the yes men GM's that won't stand up to him and do things the right way. That's why we can't get the proven winners to take the job by the way.
I just hope that people will like me
RemBee76
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5/1/2007  12:55 PM
Great post, masterplan, and I agree. Frustrating as hell this year how the team would have an inspired win one game then come out flat against a bottom-dweller.

But while winning streaks are nice, I don't see them as a measure of a teams ability or chances for future success. Don't forget we had a 6 game winning streak under Brown...before winning like five games the rest of the season.

Isiah himself wasn't happy with the teams inability to get on a roll. But when we were in the win-one-lose-one pattern, he said he appreciated what it took to get to .500.

Heres a positive...look at how many close games there were this year, how we were very few blow-outs that had us out of the game in the third quarter. Then look at how many of those there were the year before.

Progress.
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
Masterplan
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5/1/2007  1:03 PM
Posted by RemBee76:

Great post, masterplan, and I agree. Frustrating as hell this year how the team would have an inspired win one game then come out flat against a bottom-dweller.

But while winning streaks are nice, I don't see them as a measure of a teams ability or chances for future success. Don't forget we had a 6 game winning streak under Brown...before winning like five games the rest of the season.

hey, clearly bad teams can go on winning streaks... and we couldn't go on any significant winning streak this last year. what's that say...

in the end what does matter is our final record and how far we go in the playoffs. but until that gets figured out, the best way to prove yourself to your fans and teach your young palyers how to win is through periods of sustained good play. peaking at 6-4 over 10 games doesn't cut it. mathematically and emotionally, stretches like i was talking about are a precursor to proving yourself a good team.
Isiah himself wasn't happy with the teams inability to get on a roll. But when we were in the win-one-lose-one pattern, he said he appreciated what it took to get to .500.

Heres a positive...look at how many close games there were this year, how we were very few blow-outs that had us out of the game in the third quarter. Then look at how many of those there were the year before.

Progress.

really? do you have numbers on that or just impressions from one year to teh next? i don't know either way but would be interested to see. maybe i'll look into it after work...
RemBee76
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5/1/2007  1:07 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
So this notion that you can't rebuild in NY is just something people spew out without really viewing the evidence.

Tell that to Dolan. Again, why bring in Isiah Thomas as GM if your plan is to suck for four years? No, Dolan wanted to shake things up, bring excitement back to the Garden, and we are paying for that short-term thinking.

Tell that to most fans, who boo Frye and Nate, and were posting pictures of lard-asses with Curry before the season started last year. I went to two games in Chicago after they had traded away Jordan and Pippen. The place was full. Take a look at the Garden last year with a young and improving team on the floor. Half-empty.

And does doing your job, what you were hired to do, make you a "Yes man"? No. Layden was a yes man, he followed the letter of his instructions, and sunk the team in salary cap hell while collecting no young assets. Isiah has made this organization appreciate the draft in a way it never has before while still trying to follow his boss' directive.

You are not hearing me say he succeeded. You are hearing me appreciate how far we needed to go and how far we have come. Next year is the test for me.

Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
Bippity10
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5/1/2007  1:28 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by Bippity10:
So this notion that you can't rebuild in NY is just something people spew out without really viewing the evidence.

Tell that to Dolan. Again, why bring in Isiah Thomas as GM if your plan is to suck for four years? No, Dolan wanted to shake things up, bring excitement back to the Garden, and we are paying for that short-term thinking.

Tell that to most fans, who boo Frye and Nate, and were posting pictures of lard-asses with Curry before the season started last year. I went to two games in Chicago after they had traded away Jordan and Pippen. The place was full. Take a look at the Garden last year with a young and improving team on the floor. Half-empty.

And does doing your job, what you were hired to do, make you a "Yes man"? No. Layden was a yes man, he followed the letter of his instructions, and sunk the team in salary cap hell while collecting no young assets. Isiah has made this organization appreciate the draft in a way it never has before while still trying to follow his boss' directive.

You are not hearing me say he succeeded. You are hearing me appreciate how far we needed to go and how far we have come. Next year is the test for me.

Honestly do you not think that winning 23 games and quitting for an entire year because you hated your coach was the reason behind teh boing and the lard asse signs? We won 33 games with Spree, noone was putting up lard asse signs of Spree. In fact the man got standing ovations despite losing seasons. If you want to think fans have been unfair to the players, that's fine. I'm not going to blast you for that opinion. I think in some cases they have. But the question is can we rebuild in NY?

My answer is simple. The last 5 years we have averaged what 32-33 wins? Has the place exploded? No. As a matter of fact we won 33 games this year and despite all the "fans are unfair" and "disloyal" rhetoric, the place was packed regularly down the stretch. There is no evidence that the fans will not tolerate rebuilding. None.

There is however plenty of evidence that Dolan won't tolerate it. You and I are not in disagreement here so again not sure where the argument is. That's why we continue to have soft GM"s that will do his bidding. Knowing that what the fans are asking for is the right thing, but trying to buy enough time to save their own jobs by brining in the "starphuchs" of the world. This has been my mantra since Layden was here and has not changed through Isiah. It's the same method. Bring in names to buy yourself enough time with Dolan so you can do the things you know you should be doing.
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Bippity10
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5/1/2007  1:32 PM
Posted by RemBee76:

[quote]

You are not hearing me say he succeeded. You are hearing me appreciate how far we needed to go and how far we have come. Next year is the test for me.

So is it fair for some fans to say last year was the test for them? Is this fair or are you the only one who has an acceptable time line and everyone should go by that?

Personally I don't think there should be a timeline for the GM. I think if there is a definite direction and a valid plan you stick with it. I personally like the young playes that Isiah has brought in. But at the same time I am not going to agree with Isiah on everything he does and have no problem being very critical about some of the asinine moves he has made. I have no problem saying that he has a chance to make a move next year. That Isiah can turn this whole thing around in the next year or two. He can of course do this. He's a smart guy and a survivor. But I also have no problem saying that based on his MLE's and trades(which is what we will need to turn this team around), I don't have the outright, never say die faith in him that some people do.
I just hope that people will like me
MS
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5/1/2007  1:41 PM
What it comes down too and where the knicks always fall short is they don't know how to manage while renting.....

Woods and Cato are perfect examples: 1 year commitment and you get production out of them

James and Jefferies: 60 million and 5 years for what exactly?

Steve Francis: 14 million a year vs. A Darell Armstrong, Anthony Johnson, etc

You build your core and use fill ins until the players you actually want are there for the taking. Then you don't have to deal with 7 year deals like crawford, and the jj's for 5 years.

Being a GM isn't as hard as it seems especially when teams are constantly buying out talent. Hold pat and you can get a nice player for a season instead of rushing into contracts
TrueBlue
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5/1/2007  1:50 PM
Posted by RemBee76:


Isiah himself wasn't happy with the teams inability to get on a roll. But when we were in the win-one-lose-one pattern, he said he appreciated what it took to get to .500.

Heres a positive...look at how many close games there were this year, how there were very few blow-outs that had us out of the game in the third quarter. Then look at how many of those there were the year before.
Progress.

ALRIGHT HERE WE GO ARE YOU READY FOR THIS BABY BOY?


I’m considering a blowout loss 12 or more points


06/07 season we had http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/schedule?team=nyk&season=2007

vs Ind 95-109
vs SA 93-105
vs Minny 89-107
vs Chi 85-102
vs Ind 96-112
vs Den 100-123
vs Phil 77-98
vs Phx 86-108
vs Sac 100-112
vs Charlotte 110-126
vs Miami 83-101
vs Charlotte 87-104
vs GSW 101-120
vs Phil 84-104
vs Dal 77-92
vs Clev 68-90
vs Chi 69-98
vs NJ 86-100

18 blowout losses A season in which they were supposed to give it there all for the coach they wanted to play for and prove all the naysayers wrong

05/06 season we had http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/schedule?team=nyk&season=2006

vs Bos 100-114
vs Charlotte 95-108
vs Orlando 90-105
vs Mil 92-112
vs SA 96-109
vs Tor 103-129
vs Det 79-105
vs Phil 76-91
vs ATL 101-120
vs Lakers 97-130
vs Tor 90-104
vs Dal 72-100
vs Miami 83-103
vs Wash 89-110
vs SA 93-121
vs Den 96-108
vs Orl 87-111
vs Mem 75-91
vs Bos 98-123
vs Phil 95-114
vs Wash 90-105
vs Ind 82-101
vs Mil 80-97

23 blowout losses A season in which they quit on their coach before the 15th game of the season and wanted nothing else to do with him.


If you think the difference in 5 blowout losses is significant during a season in which they should have came back playing Balls to the Walls basketball then you're an Emphatic Homer.



[Edited by - TrueBlue on 05-01-2007 12:57 PM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
Masterplan
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5/1/2007  2:09 PM
Posted by Masterplan:
Isiah himself wasn't happy with the teams inability to get on a roll. But when we were in the win-one-lose-one pattern, he said he appreciated what it took to get to .500.

Heres a positive...look at how many close games there were this year, how we were very few blow-outs that had us out of the game in the third quarter. Then look at how many of those there were the year before.

Progress.

really? do you have numbers on that or just impressions from one year to teh next? i don't know either way but would be interested to see. maybe i'll look into it after work...

for what it's worth, our point differential went from -6.4 in 2005-06 to "only" -2.9. progress indeed... but you get the talk about calling getting outscored like that on a nightly basis "lowering expectations" or "settling"?
Cookdcokehop
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5/1/2007  2:10 PM
If your boss gave you a franchise told you he wanted to win now and did not want rebuild and told you spending money was not a problem because he was a millionaire, what would your team look like? Zeke did what he was told. Layden was givent eh same set of rules. If he tried to rebuild in NY the Knicks would have lost a **** load of money and Zeke would of lost his job a long time ago. Dolan knows he has alot to do with how the Knicks are right now, so now him and Zeke are working together to make "intelligent" moves that will benefit the franchise. If you have no patience then change ya fav. team. Im here for the long haul, I got faith in this experiment.
Masterplan
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5/1/2007  2:13 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:

I’m considering a blowout loss 12 or more points

nice work. out of curiosity, why make the blowout cutoff 12 points? not 10, 15, anywhere else?
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