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I am soooo sick of Marbury
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oohah
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4/5/2007  4:54 PM
Anyway im glad that we now established that Marbury is the reason that this team has failed this season because of his lack of great point guard skills. So at least now I won't have see 100s of thread on Curry or Frye or Crawford or Isiah Thomas or James Dolan anymore. As Marbury failed them all.

Nice post but I think you forgot something: Lee, Crawford and Richardson are each the MVP, the Captain, and the team's best player, but their loss for 20-30 games each means nothing and is no excuse!

It be Marbury!

oohah



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TMS
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4/5/2007  5:32 PM
nyny, it's not about blaming Marbury for the record, or blaming anyone else for that matter (at least, not for me)... it's about establishing a style of play that will promote improvement out of the team as a whole rather than relying so heavily on any 1 player to carry the entire load... tell me who you would rather have, a PG who gets his teammates involved & thinks pass first, or a PG who looks to score & take over games by himself?
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4/5/2007  5:48 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Andre Miller in 2001-2002 lead the NBA in assist with 10.9 and with his 10.9 assist lead his team to a 29-53 record. Andre Miller was traded to the Clippers who didn't reach the playoffs in his tenure. Then traded to Denver who never got out of the first rd.

But yet if we replace him with Marbury on the Knicks with this current team we would win more games? I don't know about that. Andre Miller will never lead a team anywhere either. And Andre Miller will NEVER be able to take over a playoff series though if Marbury was able to make the freaking playoffs he definatly does have that potential. Andre Miller would be great in LA with Kobe though, A player that can fill up the scoring sheet and take over games and series when needed while Miller worrys about getting the rest of the team envoled.

Anyway im glad that we now established that Marbury is the reason that this team has failed this season because of his lack of great point guard skills. So at least now I won't have see 100s of thread on Curry or Frye or Crawford or Isiah Thomas or James Dolan anymore. As Marbury failed them all.
LOL, I love people trying to compare Andre Millers Career to Mabury's. YOU see how horrblie it to consider Marbury any but a Cancer. Miller is a good point guard and pretty much has produced the same wins over his career as 20/8/Hofer in his head/three time allstar/ Coach firing/Player getting rid of/ max contract/ Two first round picks/ Penny Hardway bring/ YOu got to hire my cousins /MUffinHeadBury...........

And yes this team would be better, he just showed three times this season that he get's more out of lesser players around him then Marbury in his perfect situation with the knicks at full health. We still need a superstar right??? SO why not pay half for the Point guard who can actually make the that Star better??


[Edited by - anji on 04-05-2007 6:04 PM]

[Edited by - anji on 04-05-2007 6:05 PM]
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newyorknewyork
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4/5/2007  6:16 PM
Posted by TMS:

nyny, it's not about blaming Marbury for the record, or blaming anyone else for that matter (at least, not for me)... it's about establishing a style of play that will promote improvement out of the team as a whole rather than relying so heavily on any 1 player to carry the entire load... tell me who you would rather have, a PG who gets his teammates involved & thinks pass first, or a PG who looks to score & take over games by himself?

I would love a PG that can do both. But to answer your question. It allways depends on the makeup of the team. Just like Andre Miller averaging 10.9assist per game and still only won 29games for the yr.

I don't have a preferd style. To me its whatever is going to get us to win. You feel that having a pass first PG will get us to win more games thats cool. I don't know about Andre Miller, but I have no problem with having a pass first PG. Just like I have no problem having a scoring PG. We have a guy in Mardy cappable of running an offense. Why not let Mardy handle those duties more. Marbury is a scorer, he does what scorers do. Which is dominate quarters or halfs with his ability to score. There is no scorer who every game consistantly puts up consistant pts every quarter. Some games they do, most games its halfs, even more games its quarters. Scorers get hot and go off in stretches.

The problem that this team has been having is the TOs. Marbury can do what he does, but he and the team just turns the ball over waaaay to much. Marbury just needs to do a better job of controling the TOs. And I don't see how he needs to be a pass first PG to do so.

Also what killed us yesterday was that Philly doubled & tripled Curry and went in Zone to shut down the driving lanes for Marbury and we couldn't respond because we are not a very good 3pt shooting team right now. And unless we commit to a NJ 2003 type of uptempo offense we will continue to struggle as long as teams do that, without the shooters unless Marbury get hot.
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newyorknewyork
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4/5/2007  6:39 PM
Posted by Anji:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Andre Miller in 2001-2002 lead the NBA in assist with 10.9 and with his 10.9 assist lead his team to a 29-53 record. Andre Miller was traded to the Clippers who didn't reach the playoffs in his tenure. Then traded to Denver who never got out of the first rd.

But yet if we replace him with Marbury on the Knicks with this current team we would win more games? I don't know about that. Andre Miller will never lead a team anywhere either. And Andre Miller will NEVER be able to take over a playoff series though if Marbury was able to make the freaking playoffs he definatly does have that potential. Andre Miller would be great in LA with Kobe though, A player that can fill up the scoring sheet and take over games and series when needed while Miller worrys about getting the rest of the team envoled.

Anyway im glad that we now established that Marbury is the reason that this team has failed this season because of his lack of great point guard skills. So at least now I won't have see 100s of thread on Curry or Frye or Crawford or Isiah Thomas or James Dolan anymore. As Marbury failed them all.
LOL, I love people trying to compare Andre Millers Career to Mabury's. YOU see how horrblie it to consider Marbury any but a Cancer. Miller is a good point guard and pretty much has produced the same wins over his career as 20/8/Hofer in his head/three time allstar/ Coach firing/Player getting rid of/ max contract/ Two first round picks/ Penny Hardway bring/ YOu got to hire my cousins /MUffinHeadBury...........

And yes this team would be better, he just showed three times this season that he get's more out of lesser players around him then Marbury in his perfect situation with the knicks at full health. We still need a superstar right??? SO why not pay half for the Point guard who can actually make the that Star better??


[Edited by - anji on 04-05-2007 6:04 PM]

[Edited by - anji on 04-05-2007 6:05 PM]

The only thing that makes Marbury look like a cancer is the fact that he is outspoken and moody.

Andre Miller is a pure pass first PG. He has probably lost more than Marbury, but he keeps to himself there for he doesn't draw attention to himself like Marbury does so he gets a pass for it(no pun intended). Plus the fact he is good for more alley-oops & flashy passes to entertain the crowd.

Andre Miller isn't leading any team anywhere either like I stated earlier. So start mentioning someone else. I have never seen Andre Miller have a big game in a big game. I have never seen Andre Miller take over a game with his PG skills verse a top team, in an important game. Andre Miller will never have a Jason Kidd or Steve Nash effect on a team.

Philly's team beat Knicks team. Miller didn't defeat Marbury. For a person that likes to promote team play and pass first PGs. Its ironic that you only single out one person for the fail of the team.
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nyk4ever
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4/5/2007  6:41 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:



The only thing that makes Marbury look like a cancer is the fact that he is outspoken and moody.

Thats the ONLY thing? What about Marburys career winning % and the fact that when he leaves a team they become better? I guess those don't matter.
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BlueSeats
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4/5/2007  6:43 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:


The only thing that makes Marbury look like a cancer is the fact that he is outspoken and moody.


That and what his coaches, GMs and teammates say about him, when they aren't looking to kick his azz.
newyorknewyork
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4/5/2007  6:56 PM
Are those things not rooted from the fact that he is outspoken and moody??

And nyk4ever - there are, were, and have been many explainations on how & why teams got better after Marbury left. I don't know why your asking me that question when I know you have heard every explaination from all sides and angles already.
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nixluva
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4/5/2007  6:57 PM
Man you guys just have a field day on Steph when this team loses. It's all about him and what he can't do or isn't doing. Do you really think that if Steph passed the ball MORE that we'd win these games? You really think that? THEN I KNOW FOR SURE THAT YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE GAME! These same guys that pass up shots and hesistate and miss shots. He does pass the ball, but what happens after that is often out of his control.

When we have more capable scorers out there on the perimeter it would make sense, but right now the only other guy we have doesn't have his head in the game and that's Frye. So who exactly is Steph supposed to be passing to? Mardy, Balkman, Jared? You could pass to Nate, but then Isiah doesn't even want him on the floor cuz of his D and poor decisions. So then you're left with very few options. The timing of all of this is so convenient, cuz we're losing but you all know that this is a bunch of BS that you're spouting. You want to bring up Career winning % and other crap that has nothing to do with this season. It's not about just one guy, it's about the TEAM.

For everything negative you can bring up I can also show you positive things that have been said and written about Steph. It's not a one way street. Instead of focus all this attention on one guy let's focus on what can be done to improve the TEAM.
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4/5/2007  7:14 PM
Posted by nixluva:



When we have more capable scorers out there on the perimeter it would make sense, but right now the only other guy we have doesn't have his head in the game and that's Frye. So who exactly is Steph supposed to be passing to? Mardy, Balkman, Jared? You could pass to Nate, but then Isiah doesn't even want him on the floor cuz of his D and poor decisions. So then you're left with very few options. The timing of all of this is so convenient, cuz we're losing but you all know that this is a bunch of BS that you're spouting. You want to bring up Career winning % and other crap that has nothing to do with this season. It's not about just one guy, it's about the TEAM.

You're correct. This really is about the man who put the team together not being able to provide the coach with what he needs in terms of personnel to be able to consistently attack the defense with Steph and Eddy as the main cogs.

and no Craw's absence is not an excuse. He is a 3rd guard, nothing more.

the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Anji
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4/5/2007  7:18 PM
Equating Passing the ball to being a Point Guard is like saying being older is the same as being a leader.

Getting players to perform better is the very opposite of what marbury does on the court, that's why you wish to blame the caliber of finisher instead of the caliber of playmaker. Because you know the abilties has to be great in the person Marbury is passing to, because it isn't in him to put them in a postion to score. Reguardless of who a guy like Kidd or Miller players with, you never question if they get the most out of great players or bench players, ever.

So no, Marbury passin the ball more would not mean more wins, because passing is an action. Being a leader is a characteristic. That does come from an action. And Blue put it best, this MuffinHead point guard we have turns into an uninterested bench player when he has to pass the ball.



[Edited by - anji on 04-05-2007 7:23 PM]
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TMS
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4/5/2007  7:20 PM
Do you really think that if Steph passed the ball MORE that we'd win these games? You really think that?

yeah, i actually do think if he got his teammates involved more early & often, that it would help the team's chances of winning more games... & yeah, i think i know the game too... thanks though.
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nixluva
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4/5/2007  7:38 PM
Posted by TMS:
Do you really think that if Steph passed the ball MORE that we'd win these games? You really think that?

yeah, i actually do think if he got his teammates involved more early & often, that it would help the team's chances of winning more games... & yeah, i think i know the game too... thanks though.

Tell me just what it is that these other guys are going to do with the ball when they get it and the other team is playing a zone? Who is it that is going to take the perimeter shots or break down the D to create a better scoring opportunity? How liable are they to turn it over considering the alarming rate at which we do that already? The only other guy available right now who can break a team down is Nate and his success rate isn't high enough. Mardy does it on occasion, but he's not yet fully comfortable. Almost none of the guys is comfortable catching and shooting. Frye has been lost and Jared is up and down with his success rate at this point. This isn't Toronto where you have shooters all over the place.

Just to be clear we're talking about the roster as it is right now. Not when we have all of our guys healthy.
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4/5/2007  7:42 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Are those things not rooted from the fact that he is outspoken and moody??


Tim Thomas said he knew Marbury for years as a kid but Steph never spoke to him once when he was a Knick.

Is that what you mean by outspoken?

Did you read the quotes in this thread from K-Mart, Williams and Thorn? I didn't hear them say anything about his outspokenness or moodiness. Have you read my posts about Flip talking about taking year to get Steph to give him the "good Steph" 80% of the time, up from 25%? Would you characterize that as moody or outspoken? What about Marion and Amare talking about how a "real" PG should play, in contrast to Steph - are they discussing his moodiness or outspokenness?

I guess when Isiah tells us Steph tried to lead by intimidation, and we know that Steph told Lenny to stuff his coaching, etc, you could try to characterize that as moody and outspoken, but it's larger than that. Charles Oakley was moody and outspoken, Patrick Ewing was moody and outspoken - they the same kind of guys as Marbury?
newyorknewyork
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4/5/2007  7:45 PM
Posted by Anji:

Equating Passing the ball to being a Point Guard is like saying being older is the same as being a leader.

Getting players to perform better is the very opposite of what marbury does on the court, that's why you wish to blame the caliber of finisher instead of the caliber of playmaker. Because you know the abilties has to be great in the person Marbury is passing to, because it isn't in him to put them in a postion to score. Reguardless of who a guy like Kidd or Miller players with, you never question if they get the most out of great players or bench players, ever.

So no, Marbury passin the ball more would not mean more wins, because passing is an action. Being a leader is a characteristics. That does come from an action.


[Edited by - anji on 04-05-2007 7:20 PM]

Jason Kidd I don't question, Andre Miller I do.

The last paragragh applies to you. As you are confusing Millers passing ability with leadership. Jason Kidd is a leader I agree. Andre Miller has yet to be that. I have noy seen an Andre Miller lead team do any damage in this league. Just like most feel with Marbury. Again I have yet to see Miller's leadership show in a big game, or the playoffs.
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newyorknewyork
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4/5/2007  7:57 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Are those things not rooted from the fact that he is outspoken and moody??


Tim Thomas said he knew Marbury for years as a kid but Steph never spoke to him once when he was a Knick.

Is that what you mean by outspoken?

Did you read the quotes in this thread from K-Mart, Williams and Thorn? I didn't hear them say anything about his outspokenness or moodiness. Have you read my posts about Flip talking about taking year to get Steph to give him the "good Steph" 80% of the time, up from 25%? Would you characterize that as moody or outspoken? What about Marion and Amare talking about how a "real" PG should play, in contrast to Steph - are they discussing his moodiness or outspokenness?

I guess when Isiah tells us Steph tried to lead by intimidation, and we know that Steph told Lenny to stuff his coaching, etc, you could try to characterize that as moody and outspoken, but it's larger than that. Charles Oakley was moody and outspoken, Patrick Ewing was moody and outspoken - they the same kind of guys as Marbury?

Yea I believe its rooted from that. As him being outspoken and moody could have turned them off in terms of dealing with him. And then from being turned off by his style they can go on to dislike more details about him and get more picky in there critique of him then they would with another player.

Ewing & Oakley won games, Marbury didn't. Winning solves everything.
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nixluva
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4/5/2007  8:00 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Are those things not rooted from the fact that he is outspoken and moody??


Tim Thomas said he knew Marbury for years as a kid but Steph never spoke to him once when he was a Knick.

Is that what you mean by outspoken?

Did you read the quotes in this thread from K-Mart, Williams and Thorn? I didn't hear them say anything about his outspokenness or moodiness. Have you read my posts about Flip talking about taking year to get Steph to give him the "good Steph" 80% of the time, up from 25%? Would you characterize that as moody or outspoken? What about Marion and Amare talking about how a "real" PG should play, in contrast to Steph - are they discussing his moodiness or outspokenness?

I guess when Isiah tells us Steph tried to lead by intimidation, and we know that Steph told Lenny to stuff his coaching, etc, you could try to characterize that as moody and outspoken, but it's larger than that. Charles Oakley was moody and outspoken, Patrick Ewing was moody and outspoken - they the same kind of guys as Marbury?

What does any of this have to do with the job he did this year? The problem is that we're making it seem like he's been bad this year and he hasn't. He's been mostly good this year. Took his lumps early and came thru that and played good ball. It's too hard for you guys to just give him credit for that and for continuing to play in pain. The guy is giving us everything he has and that's still never enough for you guys. You want him to be perfect and he's not perfect. He can only give what he has to give. He can't do it alone and until this team is developed to the point where we have a solid TEAM overall nothing's going to change.

The positives of this season.

1. The emergence of Curry as a dominant force inside. He needs to continue to improve his all around skills. Most importantly his Passing.

2. Steph finally got it this year and played both ways at a high level. He was vocal on the floor and those are things we've been wanting to see from him.

3. DLee was spectacular in his 2nd season. Huge improvement at the Line and he's a double double lock every night.

4. Balkman has been good anytime we let him play and with extended minutes he's made the most of them. He just needs to keep working on his offense and improve his man D just a bit.

5. Mardy Collins CAN PLAY! We didn't really know for along time, but he's shown us just how much he can help this team. In the future we just need to see him improve his jumper and overall knowledge of the game. Be a bit more assertive and build more chemistry with Curry. I liked his alleyoop to Curry. It gives me hope he can be that other guy besides Jamal that can get Curry in great position to score.

Overall I like the fight in the team. They've stayed united and despite the losing I don't get the sense that they're too down on themselves. I think they see the big picture and the future for this team. Is it too much to ask for us to reflect on those positives instead of picking at Steph for how things have gone at the end of the year?

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4/5/2007  8:05 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by Anji:

Equating Passing the ball to being a Point Guard is like saying being older is the same as being a leader.

Getting players to perform better is the very opposite of what marbury does on the court, that's why you wish to blame the caliber of finisher instead of the caliber of playmaker. Because you know the abilties has to be great in the person Marbury is passing to, because it isn't in him to put them in a postion to score. Reguardless of who a guy like Kidd or Miller players with, you never question if they get the most out of great players or bench players, ever.

So no, Marbury passin the ball more would not mean more wins, because passing is an action. Being a leader is a characteristics. That does come from an action.


[Edited by - anji on 04-05-2007 7:20 PM]

Jason Kidd I don't question, Andre Miller I do.

The last paragragh applies to you. As you are confusing Millers passing ability with leadership. Jason Kidd is a leader I agree. Andre Miller has yet to be that. I have noy seen an Andre Miller lead team do any damage in this league. Just like most feel with Marbury. Again I have yet to see Miller's leadership show in a big game, or the playoffs.


How can you question Millers Leadership with the job he has done with the 5-18 sixers. Because in a big spot the Nuggets didn't win??? The Nab is still a star drive game. A second year Melo verse who ever the nuggets had to do more with them not winning then Miller playing his role. His team won the division twice, which has more to do with him leading the team day in and out, then if they got blitzed by the spurs or lakers in the western playoffs. If Marbury did the job Miller has in philly over the last 18 games, we would be the 7th seed. Marbury isn't a leader, so I guess JC and Lee can take it easy on the training because our Franchise point guard couldn't beat sub 500 teams at home.

[Edited by - anji on 04-05-2007 8:13 PM]
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4/5/2007  8:50 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Are those things not rooted from the fact that he is outspoken and moody??


Tim Thomas said he knew Marbury for years as a kid but Steph never spoke to him once when he was a Knick.

Is that what you mean by outspoken?

Did you read the quotes in this thread from K-Mart, Williams and Thorn? I didn't hear them say anything about his outspokenness or moodiness. Have you read my posts about Flip talking about taking year to get Steph to give him the "good Steph" 80% of the time, up from 25%? Would you characterize that as moody or outspoken? What about Marion and Amare talking about how a "real" PG should play, in contrast to Steph - are they discussing his moodiness or outspokenness?

I guess when Isiah tells us Steph tried to lead by intimidation, and we know that Steph told Lenny to stuff his coaching, etc, you could try to characterize that as moody and outspoken, but it's larger than that. Charles Oakley was moody and outspoken, Patrick Ewing was moody and outspoken - they the same kind of guys as Marbury?

What does any of this have to do with the job he did this year? The problem is that we're making it seem like he's been bad this year and he hasn't. He's been mostly good this year. Took his lumps early and came thru that and played good ball. It's too hard for you guys to just give him credit for that and for continuing to play in pain. The guy is giving us everything he has and that's still never enough for you guys. You want him to be perfect and he's not perfect. He can only give what he has to give. He can't do it alone and until this team is developed to the point where we have a solid TEAM overall nothing's going to change.

The positives of this season.

1. The emergence of Curry as a dominant force inside. He needs to continue to improve his all around skills. Most importantly his Passing.

2. Steph finally got it this year and played both ways at a high level. He was vocal on the floor and those are things we've been wanting to see from him.

3. DLee was spectacular in his 2nd season. Huge improvement at the Line and he's a double double lock every night.

4. Balkman has been good anytime we let him play and with extended minutes he's made the most of them. He just needs to keep working on his offense and improve his man D just a bit.

5. Mardy Collins CAN PLAY! We didn't really know for along time, but he's shown us just how much he can help this team. In the future we just need to see him improve his jumper and overall knowledge of the game. Be a bit more assertive and build more chemistry with Curry. I liked his alleyoop to Curry. It gives me hope he can be that other guy besides Jamal that can get Curry in great position to score.

Overall I like the fight in the team. They've stayed united and despite the losing I don't get the sense that they're too down on themselves. I think they see the big picture and the future for this team. Is it too much to ask for us to reflect on those positives instead of picking at Steph for how things have gone at the end of the year?


How about YOU stop lumping everyone together and putting words in people's mouths.

If you have something to say specific to something I've posted please quote it and respond directly.

Or do you prefer talking to straw men than real posters?
TMS
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4/5/2007  8:54 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by TMS:
Do you really think that if Steph passed the ball MORE that we'd win these games? You really think that?

yeah, i actually do think if he got his teammates involved more early & often, that it would help the team's chances of winning more games... & yeah, i think i know the game too... thanks though.

Tell me just what it is that these other guys are going to do with the ball when they get it and the other team is playing a zone? Who is it that is going to take the perimeter shots or break down the D to create a better scoring opportunity? How liable are they to turn it over considering the alarming rate at which we do that already? The only other guy available right now who can break a team down is Nate and his success rate isn't high enough. Mardy does it on occasion, but he's not yet fully comfortable. Almost none of the guys is comfortable catching and shooting. Frye has been lost and Jared is up and down with his success rate at this point. This isn't Toronto where you have shooters all over the place.

Just to be clear we're talking about the roster as it is right now. Not when we have all of our guys healthy.

my focus is on the big picture... by Marbury trusting his teammates to make plays & putting them into positions to score, i feel the overall improvement in the team is likely to be higher than if Marbury plays his "All Alone" style of ball he's playing now... the overall improvement of the team as a whole over the long haul is ALOT more important than seeing Marbury put up 30 a night & losing games anyway... i could care less what the score is if they're just going to lose games anyway... i'm looking at the big picture & having Marbury dominating the ball & playing 1 on 5 every night is not my idea of nurturing longterm success.
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I am soooo sick of Marbury

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