Posted by TMS:

Posted by Solace:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Solace:

Excellent post. It seems like the expectations are fitted to the situation wherever it's convenient. If we went 0-82, there would be excuses for that too.

the only change in expectations i've been noticing are from those people who predicted a bad season at the beginning of the season & yet are still now complaining every other day about the team's W-L record at this point... it seems they expect a playoff contender from a team that just about everyone here knew was still a couple years away from reaching that point.

Couldn't be further from the truth. The complaints have nothing to do with record. It's been said time and time again. We have a goal; a championship. Our goal is not a first round exit so Dolan makes a few extra million.

the goal is a longterm goal, not a short term, 1 year fix... you have to be patient & expect to go through some ups & downs on the path towards building to that championship... the fact that Dolan has finally seemed to put an end to irresponsible spending on contracts by buying out Mo T & Jalen & ensuring that no more expiring deals are traded for longterm contracts should be an encouraging sign that he finally gets it... if he goes off & gives Isiah the go ahead to trade for Ray Allen or someone of that nature at the trade deadline, then i can understand anyone here who wants to complain that the team is in an irreversible cycle of futility towards ever reaching that goal... i've been as frustrated as you or anyone else here over the past few years over this team's lack of vision, but this season i finally see some talented young players being developed, & a team that's starting to form some good chemistry... i haven't seen that since Grunfeld was fired.

I see the youth, but is our youth good enough? I understand after six years of almost total playoff drought (swept by the Nets a few years ago, not our proudest moment), we're excited at just the thought of making the playoffs... the possibility. But from there, what? For the people aside from Holfresh, Dixluva, etc... do you think we have a realistic shot at a championship if our core is Curry, Lee, an aging Marbury and some role players? I know that thought has been avoided, but that's what we're going for, isn't it? History shows the necessities for an NBA championship. I would be shocked if Isiah's found the magic loophole where he can find a new formula. I mean we're totally excited about being a team that is BELOW .500. Are you sure that your excitement isn't purely that some playoffs is better than waiting a few more years and going for the gold?

i think you're blowing this out of proportion here... speaking for myself, i'm not overly excited about this team, but i am encouraged by some of the things i've seen this year... that encouragement is based solely on seeing some young players like D Lee, Curry & Balkman developing & showing some signs of becoming very good players in this league, from finally seeing some leadership forming on this team in Q Rich, seeing some chemistry starting to develop between the players on this team, & seeing Marbury playing like a PG who finally maybe getting "it" (however long that lasts)... those things to me are all encouraging.

i for one am not under any illusions that this core is destined for a championship... like i've said all along, it's a work in progress... who knows who Isiah will be able to draft w/CHI's pick this year? none of us do... GS got an awesome young talent in Monta Ellis in the 2nd round a couple years ago... there are sleeper picks like him in every draft.

& then you have good role playing veterans who can be had w/a MLE that can really make an impact for any team they play for... take Alonzo Mourning for example... people laughed at my idea to target him w/the MLE a couple years ago, & yet they bemoan the fact that we don't have a tough interior defender or shotblocker this year... & how about C-Webb? i mentioned that Isiah might be smart to target him in the offseason w/the MLE, & people thought i was nuts... look at the impact he's had on that Pistons squad... he makes the game so much easier for the rest of the guys on that team, & it shows.

there are moves out there that can put this team back on the winning track... you just need to have patience & you also need to stay away from the Big Turd/Clarence Weatherspoon/Jared Jefferies type signings that don't carry with them any real high potential gain... smart moves, responsible management of the cap, & development of the young guys... & most of all, PATIENCE... these are the goals each one of us needs to have at this point if we're ever going to realistically start thinking about championship aspirations w/this team.

Posted by TMS:

i think you're blowing this out of proportion here... speaking for myself, i'm not overly excited about this team, but i am encouraged by some of the things i've seen this year... that encouragement is based solely on seeing some young players like D Lee, Curry & Balkman developing & showing some signs of becoming very good players in this league, from finally seeing some leadership forming on this team in Q Rich, seeing some chemistry starting to develop between the players on this team, & seeing Marbury playing like a PG who finally maybe getting "it" (however long that lasts)... those things to me are all encouraging.

i for one am not under any illusions that this core is destined for a championship... like i've said all along, it's a work in progress... who knows who Isiah will be able to draft w/CHI's pick this year? none of us do... GS got an awesome young talent in Monta Ellis in the 2nd round a couple years ago... there are sleeper picks like him in every draft.

& then you have good role playing veterans who can be had w/a MLE that can really make an impact for any team they play for... take Alonzo Mourning for example... people laughed at my idea to target him w/the MLE a couple years ago, & yet they bemoan the fact that we don't have a tough interior defender or shotblocker this year... & how about C-Webb? i mentioned that Isiah might be smart to target him in the offseason w/the MLE, & people thought i was nuts... look at the impact he's had on that Pistons squad... he makes the game so much easier for the rest of the guys on that team, & it shows.

there are moves out there that can put this team back on the winning track... you just need to have patience & you also need to stay away from the Big Turd/Clarence Weatherspoon/Jared Jefferies type signings that don't carry with them any real high potential gain... smart moves, responsible management of the cap, & development of the young guys... & most of all, PATIENCE... these are the goals each one of us needs to have at this point if we're ever going to realistically start thinking about championship aspirations w/this team.

I agree totally TMS. There are positives on this team and I see how, if we make a few smart moves, we can really be in a good position. That why I don't hate the team, but at the same time, I know this is not a finished product.

i understand a lot of the cynicism that's developed... i mean it's been several years since we could actually get even remotely excited about the product we're seeing out on the floor... ever since the Knicks make the Ewing trade & then Layden made that Camby for Dice trade, this team has gone completely down the tubes... i hold a lot of bitterness over things that have happened in the past too, but i'm not going to harp on these things when i see some positive things out of the team i'm watching right now.

[Edited by - TMS on 02-15-2007 11:49 PM]

of cours i get disappointed just like anyone else when this team plays the way they did last night... but i understand i'm going to see this team play this way for a while during this growth process... i think that's what keeps me sane & helps me not to overreact when i see this team play great, or when they play like crap the way they did last night.

nixluva, so much of the stuff you write is so generic it could apply to most teams in the league. of course our youth will improve - but so should everyone's. of course our team isn't a finished product, every team makes off-season adjustments, even the champions right down to that team with the #1 pick in the draft.

In a similar discussion in the offseason I noted several other teams who, like us, should also improve (Toronto, GS, Portland, to name a few) and low and behold, they did. This isn't to toot my own horn, it's just that it's obvious when under performers are poised to improve. What's significant is if they can out-improve the competition.

So now that we've made the quantum leap from sabotage/mutiny/gutter to sub-mediocrity, what's going to propel us -PAST THE COMPETITION- to the next level?

Put another way, we currently have the 20th best record in the league. It's easy to say we should improve, but of those 20 teams ahead of us, and the 10 behind us, which of them should not also improve, so that we can pull ahead?

And it's so easy to just assume everything that should happen will happen, but it doesn't always work that way. Remember when ilesfan was in discussion with someone about whther or not Fyre should threaten to make the all-star team? Well if he got the starting role he should have, but he didn't. And JJ2 should have shored up our defense, but he didn't. And Isiah's "quick" offense, by your account, should have been perfect for us, but it wasn't. And our guys should be motivated to play their hearts out every night, but they aren't.

It can work the other way too. Marbury's and Francis' knees should be worse next year. Jeffries should be a bonafied bust and given limited duty or traded. Eddy should take a step backwards after an improvement, as he always seems to do. Isiah should lead us into additional PR and legal embarrassments and distractions. James should be injured and useless all season. Frye should continue to be mis-utilized and underperform, while Lee should continue to play a diminished role causing disgruntlement and conflict, etc.

Should, should, should.

Were it only about nipping and tucking and incremental growth... but what is gonna really set us apart from the rest of the league?

Testify Blue! Testify!

I made a thread very similar to your post, although my thread lacked the detail that your post had. Great post.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 02-16-2007 12:28 AM]

Posted by SlimPack:

Posted by TMS:

there have been games when this team has pleasantly surprised me & performed better than i ever thought they would, just like there've been stinkers like the other night... you're going to have your ups & downs when you're a team in rebuild mode... building consistency is something every team in the NBA is looking for, & that's what separates the good teams from every other... i like some of the signs i'm seeing, but i realize it's going to take a while longer for this team to find that consistency, & i know we still need to add a few pieces before that can be accomplished.

this isn't a response to my last post is it? cause if it is you totally missed the point of what i was saying.

you were talking about consistency & the fact that some of the moves Isiah makes in regards to his moves don't comply w/some of the things that you think would help this team form that consistency... at least, that's what i took out of it... let me know if i was off on any of it.

Posted by nyk4ever:

Testify Blue! Testify!

I made a thread very similar to your post, although my thread lacked the detail that your post had. Great post.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 02-16-2007 12:28 AM]

And 1


That was a good post.

do i ever think Isiah has ulterior motives other than helping this team become a championship contender? yeah, sometimes i might get that feeling... sometimes i do feel that he's more interested in proving that the guys he acquired were good acquisitions rather than just playing the guys that everyone knows are the best players on this team... but then i also have to give him props for bringing in those players that i think are good on this team... i can't look at the bad things he does in a vacuum without also acknowledging some of the good things either... that's why i'm a little less critical of him than some of the rest of you, & i'm also not completely forgiving of everything he does either like some others... i take a more pragmatic approach when it comes to Isiah... i realize he's not nearly close to being a perfect GM, but he has helped this team improve over what we had here since the days of Camby, Spree & Houston in my view, & i'm open to see if he can get this team to the next step after another season because i have seen some good progress in the young players on this team this year, which was my stated goal from the beginning of the season.

Posted by TMS:

do i ever think Isiah has ulterior motives other than helping this team become a championship contender? yeah, sometimes i might get that feeling... sometimes i do feel that he's more interested in proving that the guys he acquired were good acquisitions rather than just playing the guys that everyone knows are the best players on this team... but then i also have to give him props for bringing in those players that i think are good on this team... i can't look at the bad things he does in a vacuum without also acknowledging some of the good things either... that's why i'm a little less critical of him than some of the rest of you, & i'm also not completely forgiving of everything he does either like some others... i take a more pragmatic approach when it comes to Isiah... i realize he's not nearly close to being a perfect GM, but he has helped this team improve over what we had here since the days of Camby, Spree & Houston in my view, & i'm open to see if he can get this team to the next step after another season because i have seen some good progress in the young players on this team this year, which was my stated goal from the beginning of the season.

I guess this means that no, you never think that this team may never be consistent. anyway techically every GM has done SOME good. that shouldn't be the standard for judging a GM. if it were layden shouldn't have been fired because he did make some good moves.

has Isiah made us better than the layden days? thats debatable. he made the team younger but he also made it worse in the wins column. I also worry that progress from the young players ultimately won't be enough. yes the young players progressing is nice, but you also have to bear in mind that as a team the knicks aren't all that young in comparison to the rest of the league. in other words while our young guys are improving so are the young players on other teams.

another thing you have to consider is how far we can go with the way Isiah has been building this team. we are somewhat dependent on young players (like lee and curry) which is good. but we don't depend on young improving players very much. and the overall talent we have on this team isn't very high in comparison with other teams either. even if our young players do improve as much as reasonable to expect of them, would it even be enough to offset the decline of marbury and francis? from that perspective It wouldn't be out of the question for this team to win even less games next season than they do this season.

in other words It'll take a while before this team is good (assuming Isiah continues to draft not just well but very well), and even then we won't have championship aspirations unless curry becomes a legit franchise player.

[Edited by - Slimpack on 02-16-2007 01:14 AM]