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isiah's disadvantages/advantages
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izybx
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1/9/2007  6:23 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by izybx:

OMG bro dont even try to defend Layden.

He's making a point. The point is: ISIAH HAS BEEN WORSE. Some posters have yet to get it.

Hey, if you love Isiah so much, maybe you should marry him?

I dont like Isiah. All I know is Layden took a franchise down into the gutter, and Isiah has simply stayed there while making the team younger. Layden was awful. Isiah is bad. But when you guys try to say that Latden, the worst GM ever in any sport, is worse than Isiah, it just goes to show that you (not you personally, whoever would say that) have no objectivity. Please man, Layden...OMG, u guys are insane sometimes!

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Bonn1997
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1/9/2007  6:41 PM
Posted by izybx:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by izybx:

OMG bro dont even try to defend Layden.

He's making a point. The point is: ISIAH HAS BEEN WORSE. Some posters have yet to get it.

Hey, if you love Isiah so much, maybe you should marry him?

I dont like Isiah. All I know is Layden took a franchise down into the gutter, and Isiah has simply stayed there while making the team younger. Layden was awful. Isiah is bad. But when you guys try to say that Latden, the worst GM ever in any sport, is worse than Isiah, it just goes to show that you (not you personally, whoever would say that) have no objectivity. Please man, Layden...OMG, u guys are insane sometimes!
You're correct there. Layden inherited a better team than Isiah did but didn't win more than Isiah in the non-brown years. This team obviously has more young talent too. That doesn't make Isiah a good GM by any means but the idea he was worse than Layden is crazy.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-09-2007 6:42 PM]
Bippity10
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1/10/2007  10:40 AM
Once again I don't understand why our standards are so low. Why are we comparing our current GM to Layden? Why is Layden even being discussed? He hasn't been here in almost 4 years. Shouldn't we be measuring our GM strictly by the moves he's made. Shouldn't they stand alone? I don't understand the purpose of comparing our team to last year's 23 win debacle adn our GM to Layden? Our standards are horrendous. Losing has destroyed the will of the average fan.

Isiah has done a good job with the draft. I would say great job but he has sent away a chance at some high draft picks. But in terms of the picks he's had, he's done a very good job. Noone is going to be perfect in this area. I would have picked Marcus. He didn't. That's just opinion and does not make him wrong.

As for his free-agent signings and trades. He's been borderline horrendous. We all new we were going to have to bring on some big salaries to get rid of some of the garbage we had. But that does not mean YOU MUST take on big salaries to get rid of some of the garbage. If the main cog coming on doesn't fit you don't make the trade. And you don't add a person that doesn't fit and add more salary. You stick to your plan. This is an area I think Isiah has been severly lacking. He has developed a plan as time has gone by Insetad of focusing. That's the only way I can explain the signings of Stevie and JJ and Vinny and the pairing of LB and Steph after a horrendous summer games. He has a plan, but as soon as something exciting comes along he goes for it. AS good as his drafts are, you cannot justify having 50% of your moves gone in less than a year no matter what the circumstances. Whether you like Isiah's current direction or not, can you really defend this portion of it?

Now, once again I will have guys from the MSG days arguing with me over this. But I've been saying the same thing since Layden was here. The GM's do a horrible job here and they deserver the beatings they get. But I think this is an organizational problem more than hiring dumb GM's and coaches every year. Through SCAPEGOATING, infighting, blaming and firings we have created an atmosphere where all GM's and coaches work to save their jobs. They make strange moves because they aren't building. They are making moves to protect themselves in the short run to buy time for the long run. I don't think Isiah is an idiot. I think half of his moves have been made for the future(Lee, Curry, Frye etc) and half have been made with no acknowlegement of the organization, but simply to buy himself time with a splash. All our GM"s do the same thing and the situation won't change until we get a GM/Coach combo that have a united plan and can maintain a united front.

Now if you disagree with my assessment that's fine. No need to explain a difference in opinion. But if you think this is the voice of some kind of Isiah hater, please respond by explaining to me what part of my post is unfair.

[Edited by - Bippity10 on 01-10-2007 10:48 AM]
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bigbeast
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1/10/2007  11:07 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by izybx:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by izybx:

OMG bro dont even try to defend Layden.

He's making a point. The point is: ISIAH HAS BEEN WORSE. Some posters have yet to get it.

Hey, if you love Isiah so much, maybe you should marry him?

I dont like Isiah. All I know is Layden took a franchise down into the gutter, and Isiah has simply stayed there while making the team younger. Layden was awful. Isiah is bad. But when you guys try to say that Latden, the worst GM ever in any sport, is worse than Isiah, it just goes to show that you (not you personally, whoever would say that) have no objectivity. Please man, Layden...OMG, u guys are insane sometimes!
You're correct there. Layden inherited a better team than Isiah did but didn't win more than Isiah in the non-brown years. This team obviously has more young talent too. That doesn't make Isiah a good GM by any means but the idea he was worse than Layden is crazy.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-09-2007 6:42 PM]

I agree 100%. Its just obvious the hate for Isiah is more personal than anything and its hard for seom people to give the man credit for anything.

"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
Masterplan
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1/10/2007  11:55 AM
Posted by bigbeast:


I agree 100%. Its just obvious the hate for Isiah is more personal than anything and its hard for seom people to give the man credit for anything.

not true. at this point i'm definitely a critic of IT, but i supported him up until the curry trade and then the francis trade. it's not personal. my opinion for IT is the result of three years of simply hideous results. i love a lot of the players he brought in. but his results have been mediocre to horrible.

with layden i liked few if any of the players he brought in and the results were mediocre to bad. whatever. IT had enough time and resources to make the team whatever he wanted- more than 100% roster turnover in 3 years. there's plenty of reasons to dislike the job IT has done here that are not "personal."

[Edited by - Masterplan on 01-10-2007 11:57 AM]
nixluva
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1/10/2007  12:26 PM
OK let me jump in here and try to understand the nature of Knick fans who want to judge Isiah harshly for his 3 years here. Doesn't the guy get a grace period? The truck needed to be backed up when Layden was fired, but Dolan didn't want that. So we went another way and spent TONS of cash. Now if that's all isiah did I could understand the bashing, but he did FAR more than that. He brought in some pieces that this team can move forward with. Not to mention that he's not done yet.

You can't count his 1st half seaon as NO GM would really be able to accomplish much other than cleaning house, which we know he couldn't fully do. His next and 1st full season was merely a continuation of what Dolan wanted from the 1st half year, But this is where Isiah got it right. He convinced Dolan to allow him to revamp the team with more YOUTH. The moves he's made since then have included some vets, but overwhelmingly the team has added GOOD young talent. If you're looking at his record over that time or the money spent, then you simply aren't focusing on what's been most important during his tenure. IMPROVING the TEAM! Now the record isn't sterling, but if you're honest about things you can see how this team could develop into a very good team and the missing pieces are FAR less now and you can see light at the end of the tunnel. There's absolutely no comparison in the direction of the team compared to Layden. This is only 3 years on the job and the process should've started last year.
fishmike
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1/10/2007  12:54 PM
nixluva.. you should change your name to Isiahaluva

Whats the grace period for bad trades and terrible signings? Its not that we are winning FEWER games than when Layden was here (which we are). Its that Isiah has turned the entire roster more than once, he's had 3 drafts, 3 trade deadlines, 3 offseasons, signed 3 players with the MLE, made a ton of major trades, is on his 5th coach, has traded away future first round picks, had ensured no chance of cap space for 3 MORE years, has spent over $250mm in adding player salary, has a sexual harrasment suit against him and has made our franchise the brunt of every joke in pro sports and the laughing stock on the NBA.

This is not about a new GM that made some moves that hasnt worked. Everyone in the basketball world knew half the things he's done were idiotic the minute they were done. Whats worse is the bad moves continue. Has he made a couple good ones? Only by sheer volume.
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Bippity10
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1/10/2007  1:51 PM
Let's pretend that Isiah has been perfect. What is the next step. Are we positioned to make a move elsewhere? Our draft picks are either high or non-existant in the coming years and we are over the cap. So there is no reall positioning to make a move in the future. Instead we are left hoping that Frye, Lee and Curry turn into a championship squad, or we have to trade one of them. This is why I wonder what our plan is. We keep saying we are going young but seem to be positioning ourselves to tinker and add role players. Not a critique, just an observation.
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fishmike
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1/10/2007  2:12 PM
Bip, your thinking logically where none exists. Remember this was the year we were surely going make our big move for Garnett or Jermain Oneil. Remember giving up a pick for Mo Taylor was OK because of how valuable his expiring contract was going to be. That was the plan.

Now that Mo and Jalen are gone and those delusions crushed we have shifted to Eddy the franchise and Steph the all star. Nevermind that we are a .400 team in the worst conference in sports. God, just end this nightmare.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Solace
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1/10/2007  2:29 PM
Posted by izybx:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by izybx:

OMG bro dont even try to defend Layden.

He's making a point. The point is: ISIAH HAS BEEN WORSE. Some posters have yet to get it.

Hey, if you love Isiah so much, maybe you should marry him?

I dont like Isiah. All I know is Layden took a franchise down into the gutter, and Isiah has simply stayed there while making the team younger. Layden was awful. Isiah is bad. But when you guys try to say that Latden, the worst GM ever in any sport, is worse than Isiah, it just goes to show that you (not you personally, whoever would say that) have no objectivity. Please man, Layden...OMG, u guys are insane sometimes!

I was being sarcastic on the love of Isiah comment. Anyway, I actually disagree. I feel that both GMs made the team worse. To compare one to another maybe just is too low standards, as Bip said. Is it bias? I don't think so. Layden had some god awful moves, like Shandon Eisleyspoon, and trading for McKnee, but had moves that I liked, like signing Mutombo, signing Doleac for the LLE (brilliant move), trading a 32-year old 6'5" Sprewell for a 27-year old 6'10" Van Horn (brilliant trade as far as I'm concerned). Isiah's had some god awful moves like trading a draft pick and expirings for Mo T, like trading for Tim Thomas, the Marbury trade was questionable, the Francis trade was TERRIBLE and had one good trade in the Q trade. Isiah's signings have also stunk to high heavens: Jerome James, and Jared Jeffries. Barf. Please. Both GMs unnecessarily traded away draft picks. Isiah made a little better use of the picks he had. I loved the Lampe, Frank Williams and Vujanic picks, even if they didn't work out (Vujanic because we never made room on the roster for him to come over) -- we can't be guaranteed that all of Isiah's picks will work out yet, either. Remember, Lampe, F. Williams and Sweetney all looked like great picks at first, too. Now, Layden made our team salary higher with some bad trades. Isiah went above and beyond. Our team salary hit something like $135 million. Yes, it will go down, but you can't discount this. Right now the cap is so far away that it's not even in sight (despite ridiculous ideas like us not resigning our sophmores). Isiah had a chance to fix that... to fix something that Layden was ordered by Dolan to fix, before he got fired. Isiah took it a different route and we're three years down the line, once again three years away from having it fixed, when our cap could've been resolved by now AND we could have the picks. Instead, we have Franbury.

To say that Isiah is better than Layden is questionable to me, but irrelevant. They both stink. To give Isiah credit for duplicating Layden's failures (in a different way) is poor.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Bonn1997
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1/10/2007  3:16 PM
Isiah made only "a little better use" of draft picks than Layden? Wow!
Bippity10
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1/10/2007  5:00 PM
Bonn, why do we insist on comparing our GM to Layden. What does that say?
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Solace
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1/10/2007  5:07 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Isiah made only "a little better use" of draft picks than Layden? Wow!

Lee and Balkman are successes, even though Balk was taken too high. I still DISLIKE the Nate pick, the Frye pick (poor for a mid lottery pick). Ariza was a good pick, but we traded him (tough to give much credit when we turned him into Franbury). Mardy Collins pick so far is looking average. Like I said, it was in my estimation. If we could go back to those drafts, I still would've drafted Lampe, Frank Williams and Vujanic when they got taken. I think the Knicks mishandled both and that's why Lampe is bouncing from team to team and Vujanic is still over in Europe. Sweetney, I would've drafted a different player, but I consider it no worse than the Frye pick, honestly.

That's my opinion and I don't expect everyone to feel that way. I felt most of Layden's draft picks were reasonable. There were no huge reaches, and at the time of the draft and for the following season most felt they were good. To reiterate, three picks out of six I liked, and Ariza is erased by the trade.

You do have to remember not to judge too early. Some players look real good in small samples, but can't really cut it. Case in point is Lavor Postell. I would bet that at least one of Isiah's picks (Mardy Collins) doesn't last in the league more than five years.

[Edited by - Solace on Jan 10 2007 5:09 PM]
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Bonn1997
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1/10/2007  5:12 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Bonn, why do we insist on comparing our GM to Layden. What does that say?

I was just nitpicking on that comment. The truth is I have a lot of sympathy for Layden and Isiah because they get all the criticism in the world while I don't think many GMs could succeed under a corporate owner who just wanted instant profits and wouldn't do a real rebuild.
Bippity10
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1/10/2007  5:47 PM
Bonn: I agree with that. I don't have sympathy for them because they took the job knowing what they were getting into. And I think they also are responsible for selling their ultimate vision and fulfilling it. It's a tough situation here because everything is so cutthroat. But it was Layden's decision to turn us into Utah east. And it was Isiah's decision to veer off his plan 80 times and undermine his coaches. None of that had to be done. But your overall point is very true. It's tough to be a GM here. That's why I think ultimately Isiah cannot do both. Especially when he struggled so much to do just one.

[Edited by - Bippity10 on 01-10-2007 5:47 PM]
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Bonn1997
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1/10/2007  6:07 PM
I hear what you're saying. I think their biggest mistakes (and they probably both realize it now) were accepting the job. They probably didn't fully appreciate what they were getting into or thought the task would be easier than it turned out to be. For that, I don't think they deserve the hate they receive. (I think Dolan does!)
sebstar
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1/10/2007  6:15 PM
He had a bad MLE signing he MUST GO!!!...for the love of GOD, how could anybody EVER make such a mistake ---- on a 7 footer no less!!!!!!!!

He brought in Mo Taylor and Vin Baker...HE MUST GO!!!!...name another GM that has ever made such monumental, colossal mistakes like that. The franchise will never be the same.

He traded for Eddy Curry!!!!!...never mind that Curry has become a burgeoning force (when most here were rooting against him) and the draft pick was an exaggerated one due to the soap opera largely orchestrated by Larry Brown...He MUST GO!!

Who cares that the knicks obviously have a roster thats on the upswing and are fighting for a playoff spot....Sniff, Sniff...Isiah has been here THREE YEARS, he should at least have two championships by now!!!! Must go

Such whiners.

In any event, Isiah has certainly had his missteps but the Anti-Zeke, I luv Larry, groupie squad is out of control. I want to hear that fairy tale about NY fans being smart and reasonable in their criticism and having the patience to withstand a rebuilding process again
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misterearl
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1/16/2007  8:53 PM
Sebstar - these same "knowledgeable" Knicks fans would never allow a rebuild. Each and every draft pick would be dissected ad nauseum while the strategy was second-guessed and the vision of whatever coach would be first assumed and then called under attack for not being clear.

It's a jungle in here.
once a knick always a knick
Bonn1997
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1/16/2007  8:56 PM
To think, *I* used to be accused of having no life and bookmarking old threads. (Now I'm never accused of the bookmarking part at least! )
misterearl
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1/17/2007  8:58 AM
Bonn - it's a dirty job, but someone hasta do it

Bookmarking a thread is not a crime.

Or is it?

[Edited by - misterearl on 01-17-2007 08:59 AM]
once a knick always a knick
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