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one constant: franchise player
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nyk4ever
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1/5/2007  2:39 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Michael6835:

i didnt bold mine either. oh well.

How can you guys sit there and tell me that Curry does not make others better. You can't be serious ? If we had someone to hit the 3 when the double and triple comes they would surely be better. The fact that people are doubling and tripling means people are out of position which gives Lee a bit of advantage on the boards. NOTE: I am not taking away from LEE, he works hard for his. Everyone benefits from a dominant post player, if you cant hit the shot or take advantage of being open, who's fault is it ? I will say this, Eddy needs to get better at passing out of the double team, my answer give him time.
Oh, he has shown us 6 yrs, ok, i am willing to give him another 6yrs.
because he doesnt. He has zero passing skills. On offense he's one of the league's best finishers. He's got nice moves around the basket and draws fouls. Aside from that he's worthless away from the basket. He doesnt set a good screen. He doesnt pass. He dominates ALL the touches in the post so guys like Lee or Frye will never get the ball there. On defense he's worse, because he actually helps expose the faults of our backcourt. We know as a group their defense is bad, but Eddy (the center) does NOTHING to discourage players from taking our guards off the dribble and into the paint. Eddy doesnt even raise his hands or foul opposing guards because he doesnt want to come out of the game. Either he doesnt try, or Isiah has told him do whatever he has to do to stay out of foul trouble because we need your scoring.

I dont hate Eddy. I think he's a nice piece to have. I hate the deal we used to get him here, but by no means do I hold Eddy responsible for that. However 6 years in the league and we arent talking about a skill issue, we are learning about a motivation issue. He's a fat basketball player, and his play is hurt by it. Can you teach/coach lazy? Can you teach preparation? Off season workouts? A pro-athlete's diet? He's shown up in shape to play one year, a contract year, and he took so many diet pills to keep weight off it affected his heart. I wonder how much ephedra/rip fuel he took that year.

What star/franchise player was in the league for 6 losing years before carrying a franchise in any way shape or form? This is not impatience, its calling it like I see it.

Thats EXACTLY the same I see it Fish.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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Michael6835
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1/5/2007  3:06 PM
ok so whats the plan GMs ? You have total control, what do you do from here.

on curry, he looks like he is in shape this year, is he a shot blocker ? No.
He needs to be a better rebounder - no agrument there.
Screens - He is setting better screens, he is not being called for offensive fouls like before. You see alot more pick roll plays with him and crawford.
Dominating touches in the post - Explain to me why he should not be dominating the post ? Why does Lee need the ball in the post ? Frye's low post game is not as dominant as Curry, no one is rushing to double Frye. Frye doesnt want to post, he shoots every time he touches.
Passing - Should improve over time
"Worthless away from the basket" - Why do you want your center away from the basket, whats the purpose ? Maybe you can elaborate.
Defense - Solution is to get better guards who can defend the perimeter so not to put your big in that situation. Truth is, guard defense is horrible even a shot blocking team would be mad.

How old is eddy curry again ? Do you think if you surrounded him with complimentary players, the knicks would be better ? or worse ?

If you answer yes, than we need to stay the course, let the guards expire and build around the big man. You discredit his offensive ability as if any big center can do what he does. Like scoring is just a gimme. Do you agree that a dominant low post scorer changes the offensive make up of a team ? Do you agree that it forces the defense to double and triple team, therefore leaving others open ?
Do you agree that if he hits only about 4 more FTs a game he is 20+ player ?
M
franco12
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1/5/2007  3:36 PM
Posted by Michael6835:

ok so whats the plan GMs ? You have total control, what do you do from here.

on curry, he looks like he is in shape this year, is he a shot blocker ? No.
He needs to be a better rebounder - no agrument there.
Screens - He is setting better screens, he is not being called for offensive fouls like before. You see alot more pick roll plays with him and crawford.
Dominating touches in the post - Explain to me why he should not be dominating the post ? Why does Lee need the ball in the post ? Frye's low post game is not as dominant as Curry, no one is rushing to double Frye. Frye doesnt want to post, he shoots every time he touches.
Passing - Should improve over time
"Worthless away from the basket" - Why do you want your center away from the basket, whats the purpose ? Maybe you can elaborate.
Defense - Solution is to get better guards who can defend the perimeter so not to put your big in that situation. Truth is, guard defense is horrible even a shot blocking team would be mad.

How old is eddy curry again ? Do you think if you surrounded him with complimentary players, the knicks would be better ? or worse ?

If you answer yes, than we need to stay the course, let the guards expire and build around the big man. You discredit his offensive ability as if any big center can do what he does. Like scoring is just a gimme. Do you agree that a dominant low post scorer changes the offensive make up of a team ? Do you agree that it forces the defense to double and triple team, therefore leaving others open ?
Do you agree that if he hits only about 4 more FTs a game he is 20+ player ?

Curry is young- but we're starting to see a trend with a lot of guys now that came out early and have been in the league for a long time- and that is they start to show the wear and tear a lot earlier.

For curry to warrent a franchise moniker, he would need to put up 20 & 9 for a year.
Michael6835
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1/5/2007  3:37 PM
gotta go home now, will be on later
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Solace
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1/5/2007  3:38 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by Michael6835:

How does Bosh change this team anymore than Eddie does ?

Are you serious? Dude, Bosh is WAY WAY WAY better than Eddy. There's no comparison.

talent for talent, you're probably right, but judging from the respective W-L records of both teams, i think it's a fair point that Michael brings up... Bosh is supposedly franchise calibre, yet his team is floundering just as much as the Knicks are right now... it's not as if he's not surrounded by good young talent either... i think most here would agree they'd rather have TJ Ford over Stephon Marbury, & Bargnani is a good looking young player in his own right... is Channing Frye that much better as a supporting player at this point? the 1 advantage the Knicks have is D Lee's become a rebounding monster, but other than that neither Curry nor Bosh are currently vaulting their teams into realistic playoff contention right now because both teams are lacking in a few essential key role players.

I disagree. Toronto's supporting cast is clearly worse than the Knicks. Bargnani is still a kid and not yet an impact in the games. TJ Ford over Marbury? Aside from Marbury's attitude problems, there's no question that Marbs is better. Toronto has a weak team aside from Bosh. Remove Bosh, they'd win somewhere around 12 games. Remove Curry and I think the Knicks would still win at least 25.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Michael6835
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1/5/2007  3:42 PM
remove curry we win 23 (last year) he was a non factor.
M
djsunyc
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1/5/2007  3:43 PM
they didn't have bosh and they went 5-7 in those 12 games.

the last 2 losses were without tj ford and garbajosa. bosh just came back vs. the suns and lost by 2 in final seconds.

but looking towards the future, for what colangelo is trying to do up there, tj + bosh + bargnani is a great start.

and remember, colangelo just got there midway through last year.
holfresh
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1/5/2007  3:43 PM

Without reading most of the post here..I ask DJ or any person who has been asking for this...Do you think the ultimate decision to break it down and get under the cap,get to the lottery,to acquire such a player is Isiah's decision to make?
Bonn1997
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1/5/2007  4:01 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Michael6835:

i didnt bold mine either. oh well.

How can you guys sit there and tell me that Curry does not make others better. You can't be serious ? If we had someone to hit the 3 when the double and triple comes they would surely be better. The fact that people are doubling and tripling means people are out of position which gives Lee a bit of advantage on the boards. NOTE: I am not taking away from LEE, he works hard for his. Everyone benefits from a dominant post player, if you cant hit the shot or take advantage of being open, who's fault is it ? I will say this, Eddy needs to get better at passing out of the double team, my answer give him time.
Oh, he has shown us 6 yrs, ok, i am willing to give him another 6yrs.
because he doesnt. He has zero passing skills. On offense he's one of the league's best finishers. He's got nice moves around the basket and draws fouls. Aside from that he's worthless away from the basket. He doesnt set a good screen. He doesnt pass. He dominates ALL the touches in the post so guys like Lee or Frye will never get the ball there. On defense he's worse, because he actually helps expose the faults of our backcourt. We know as a group their defense is bad, but Eddy (the center) does NOTHING to discourage players from taking our guards off the dribble and into the paint. Eddy doesnt even raise his hands or foul opposing guards because he doesnt want to come out of the game. Either he doesnt try, or Isiah has told him do whatever he has to do to stay out of foul trouble because we need your scoring.

I dont hate Eddy. I think he's a nice piece to have. I hate the deal we used to get him here, but by no means do I hold Eddy responsible for that. However 6 years in the league and we arent talking about a skill issue, we are learning about a motivation issue. He's a fat basketball player, and his play is hurt by it. Can you teach/coach lazy? Can you teach preparation? Off season workouts? A pro-athlete's diet? He's shown up in shape to play one year, a contract year, and he took so many diet pills to keep weight off it affected his heart. I wonder how much ephedra/rip fuel he took that year.

What star/franchise player was in the league for 6 losing years before carrying a franchise in any way shape or form? This is not impatience, its calling it like I see it.

Thats EXACTLY the same I see it Fish.
Yup; that was easily the best post in this thread.

djsunyc
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1/5/2007  4:05 PM
Posted by holfresh:


Without reading most of the post here..I ask DJ or any person who has been asking for this...Do you think the ultimate decision to break it down and get under the cap,get to the lottery,to acquire such a player is Isiah's decision to make?

how about trading for marbury and giving up 2 #1's, trading for curry and giving up 2 #1's, giving jamal crawford a 7 year deal, trading kurt for quentin, giving jeffries 5 years, jerome 5 years, not protecting picks, etc...who made those choices?
TMS
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1/5/2007  4:21 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by Michael6835:

How does Bosh change this team anymore than Eddie does ?

Are you serious? Dude, Bosh is WAY WAY WAY better than Eddy. There's no comparison.

talent for talent, you're probably right, but judging from the respective W-L records of both teams, i think it's a fair point that Michael brings up... Bosh is supposedly franchise calibre, yet his team is floundering just as much as the Knicks are right now... it's not as if he's not surrounded by good young talent either... i think most here would agree they'd rather have TJ Ford over Stephon Marbury, & Bargnani is a good looking young player in his own right... is Channing Frye that much better as a supporting player at this point? the 1 advantage the Knicks have is D Lee's become a rebounding monster, but other than that neither Curry nor Bosh are currently vaulting their teams into realistic playoff contention right now because both teams are lacking in a few essential key role players.

I disagree. Toronto's supporting cast is clearly worse than the Knicks. Bargnani is still a kid and not yet an impact in the games. TJ Ford over Marbury? Aside from Marbury's attitude problems, there's no question that Marbs is better. Toronto has a weak team aside from Bosh. Remove Bosh, they'd win somewhere around 12 games. Remove Curry and I think the Knicks would still win at least 25.

i ran a poll on who you'd rather have at PG & just about everyone on this board chose TJ Ford over Marbury... he's the defensive, pass first PG we've all been harping for... now Marbury's better w/o a doubt in your eyes? i just don't see it... give me Ford over Marbury anyday if you want to build a winning franchise.

as for Bargnani, i think he'll be a better player overall than Channing when it's all said & done... you're right in that he's still young & that team is still learning each other's tendencies... the Knicks have more veterans who've been around this league, but are they necessarily a better basketball team? to me, Jamal & Mo Pete are pretty comparable in what they contribute as scorers from the perimeter... we already covered Ford & Marbs... that leaves TOR's young role players to compare to guys like Balkman, Cato, Jefferies, Malik... Q Rich & Francis are out w/injuries for a large chunk of the season... so overall, are the Raptors that much inferior in talent than the Knicks are when you discount D Lee's rebounding? & as dj pointed out, the Raptors didn't exactly go into the tank playing w/o their franchise star, so how much better does he really make his teammates at this point?

this is not an argument trying to say that Bosh isn't a franchise calibre player btw... this is a debate on how valid that statement is that all franchise players make their teammates better... it's not necessarily the case unless u have the right mixture & makeup of the team... TOR & NY are 2 teams that are still looking for that right mixture... get the right supporting cast to put around Curry & his weaknesses will be alot less of an issue to you guys.

btw, the Celtics aren't doing so hot w/Paul Pierce on their team either... & how well are the Bobcats doing w/Emeka Okafor? how well are the Hornets doing w/Chris Paul? or the Nets doing w/Vince & Jason Kidd this season? does that mean none of these guys are franchise calibre players?

let's not get this confused... when people refer to a "franchise calibre player" it's not nearly the same as being a top 50 of all time HOF player... there's a huge difference between Alltime great & franchise calibre, as i'm sure you'll agree... teams need the right chemistry & the right makeup as well as the right coaching & system to win in this league... putting together a bunch of talented players isn't nearly enough.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
bettalaylow
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1/5/2007  4:27 PM
Toronto's supporting cast is clearly worse than the Knicks. Bargnani is still a kid and not yet an impact in the games. TJ Ford over Marbury? Aside from Marbury's attitude problems, there's no question that Marbs is better. Toronto has a weak team aside from Bosh. Remove Bosh, they'd win somewhere around 12 games. Remove Curry and I think the Knicks would still win at least 25.

I couldn't disagree more with your statement about Toronto. TJ Ford is one of the better young point guards in this league. Probably the best behind the guy named Chris Paul. 16 points and 8 assists his shooting percentage this year is up to 45 so that ain't bad either. Whether we want to admit it or not Marbs best years are behind him. His body has taken too much of a beating over the years and he's lost a major component of his game: his explosiveness. So this isn't even about his attitude problems but rather his age and the miles put on his body. Not to mention TJ is about 10 years younger.
Let me preface my next point about the rest of the Raptors team. I'm not pointing anyone out but I think there is a general bias against foreign players. It really took Dirk beating the Spurs before he got some real respect though his team has consistently won 50 games. He' still not really menioned as one of the best after all the numbers he's put up consistently throughout his career just to show as example. Getting to the Raptors Andrea Bargnani is improving steadily he may turn out to be average or he could very well turn out to be a very similar player to Dirk which is certaintly not a bad thing. Than you have Jorge Garbajosa who can shoot from all over the floor and has the height. Than you have a back-up of Jose Calderon. This team has some good shooters and some talented guys offensively. When you have guys who can play and shoot from the premieter coupled with a serious down low threat that team can be very dangerous. If they can stay healthy througout the 2nd half of the season they could make a run for a playoff berth. Or next season they could this year's Orlando team. I would not dismiss them the way people do. If you have a great big man with a great true point guard right there is a major building block. You could be looking at the reincarnation of KG/Marbs.

I think our guard play will be the ultimate undoing of this team if it stays the same and our softness down low. Too many guys on this team are one dimensional, erratic, poor leaders, and questionable defenders. Our guard play is just not promising for the future. Marbury like I said his best years are gone. Crawford is entirely too erratic and had a chance to cultivate his game but with Isiah its just business as usual. Nate even if he wasn't such a knucklehead he's way too undersized and selfish to start in this league.


Oh and I think if you remove Curry from this year's team we'd only be flirting with 10 wins as opposed to 14 wins right now. Just by his sheer numbers if nothing else.
Do you think the ultimate decision to break it down and get under the cap,get to the lottery,to acquire such a player is Isiah's decision to make?

Dolan I think trusts Isiah and has given thus far carte blanche to do as he sees fit for this team. So yes I do think the decision rests solely at Isiah's feet.
djsunyc
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1/5/2007  4:32 PM
not to sound like a toronto homer but bargnani is going to be good, like really good.
and i thought bosh was more of a robin than batman...but i'm wrong. bosh is special.
and tj ford provides much needed leadership from the point guard spot. he has to fix his shot selection tho.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 01-05-2007 4:33 PM]
fishmike
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1/5/2007  4:34 PM
Why when we still have huge issue with effort and consistancy should we be resolved to building around any player on this roster? The only guy thats both earned his minutes and proven he will give 100% everynight is David Lee. If you put Lee's heart in Curry's body you would probably have the next Shaq.

I will say I think we are doing the right thing w/ Curry and thats feeding him the ball. He does only one thing well so we are maximizing that. Only good can come from this. He will either truly blossum into an all star player or we will inflate his numbers into an area that makes him very attactive to other teams. Look at what Dal gave for Dampier who was coming off a 12/12 season. At 24 I think Curry could fetch a solid package this offseason if we were inclined. Nothing like what we gave up, but something that could certainly help.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Solace
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1/5/2007  4:34 PM
The irony in this talk of getting under the cap is about 5 years ago I was on the MSG boards, talking with posters about trading Camby, Houston, Sprewell and our bad contracts (Shandon and Eisley) for a group of shorter and expiring deals, including Pippen and Kemp, a draft pick and salary relief. That would've had us under the cap in two years and had us with some great draft picks very quickly. I was told I was insane. In hindsight, boy would that have been nice. The times have changed, and no team would take on that kind of salary in trade (except the Knicks), but it's the kind of thing where people were saying how they couldn't wait that long for the Knicks to be good again. But the alternative was what? 6 under .500 seasons in a row?
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
nyk4ever
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1/5/2007  4:39 PM
Theres a difference between a Franchise player who has talent around him that can't get it done and a Franchise player who has poor management who don't know how to surround him with the right talent. In the Raptors case, I think they made some really poor decisions the past years but now Bryan Colangelo has totally changed that team by bringing Bargnani and TJ Ford. Was it Chris Bosh's fault that he wasn't surrounded with good talent all those years?

Theres no doubt about Bosh and what he brings to a team every game that he plays in and
I think argument also fits for any franchise player a team has. Management has to put the right players around the guy for it to work and I don't think that should be a reason to NOT draft a franchise player. I have confidence that the next GM of this team is going to be a real basketball man and will get a franchise player on this team and then surround him with the right people.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 01-05-2007 4:40 PM]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Bonn1997
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1/5/2007  4:42 PM
Bosh v. Curry? It's not even close! Bosh is a two-way player who is 2nd in the league in rebounding and who blocks and alters shots. I can tell you from living near Toronto that I've never met a Raptor fan who would trade Bosh for Curry but I've met countless Knick fans who would dream of trading Curry for Bosh (even after Curry's scoring streak).
Masterplan
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1/5/2007  4:44 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

Theres a difference between a Franchise player who has talent around him that can't get it done and a Franchise player who has poor management who don't know how to surround him with the right talent. In the Raptors case, I think they made some really poor decisions the past years but now Bryan Colangelo has totally changed that team by bringing Bargnani and TJ Ford. Was it Chris Bosh's fault that he wasn't surrounded with good talent all those years?

Theres no doubt about Bosh and what he brings to a team every game that he plays in and
I think argument also fits for any franchise player a team has. Management has to put the right players around the guy for it to work and I don't think that should be a reason to NOT draft a franchise player. I have confidence that the next GM of this team is going to be a real basketball man and will get a franchise player on this team and then surround him with the right people.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 01-05-2007 4:40 PM]

i would add that a lot of those teams are in transition- especially toronto with a radically different crew around bosh. we've been playing together pretty much for 1.5 years + and are still arguing about chemistry and saying we need time.
fishmike
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1/5/2007  4:47 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by holfresh:


Without reading most of the post here..I ask DJ or any person who has been asking for this...Do you think the ultimate decision to break it down and get under the cap,get to the lottery,to acquire such a player is Isiah's decision to make?

how about trading for marbury and giving up 2 #1's, trading for curry and giving up 2 #1's, giving jamal crawford a 7 year deal, trading kurt for quentin, giving jeffries 5 years, jerome 5 years, not protecting picks, etc...who made those choices?
Well thats the part of the arguement thats always avoided. You can talk about the 'Dolan mandate' till your blue in the face. It doesnt change the fact that the GM here has made bad trades, poor signing and poor use of what resources were available. DJ.. was Vin Baker in your list? Jerome James? If the Dolan mandate was in full effect how do you trade your only center for Malik Rose?

I call bullspit

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
holfresh
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1/5/2007  4:48 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by holfresh:


Without reading most of the post here..I ask DJ or any person who has been asking for this...Do you think the ultimate decision to break it down and get under the cap,get to the lottery,to acquire such a player is Isiah's decision to make?

how about trading for marbury and giving up 2 #1's, trading for curry and giving up 2 #1's, giving jamal crawford a 7 year deal, trading kurt for quentin, giving jeffries 5 years, jerome 5 years, not protecting picks, etc...who made those choices?

Those are Isiah's and Dolan's decision...My point is the opening to this thread is putting the fact that we don't have a franchise player or not putting the things in place to get one on Isiah's shoulders is not entirely true...It makes for good forum conversation because most here hate Isiah but truth be known, Dolan won't let this team get under the cap for the Knicks to make such moves...So get rid of Isiah,cool...The next guy will be Starphucing us in a different and you will be here saying he doesn't know how to build a Championship team either...By the way, giving up two number 1's and giving up one and swapping picks are two completely different things...

Another thing, after watching Portland, no way New York allows what happening in Portland happen in NY....Everyone talks about breaking it down but I don't think they understand what it really means...
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