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Bucher: Ariza this year's Boris Diaw: NBA 15 Isiah 0
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Rich
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1/3/2007  9:06 PM
Posted by arkrud:
Posted by Rich:

Larry didn't have Ariza's best interests in mind when he smeared him.

Intensions are nothing - result is everything...

So if Person A intentionally killed Person B, it's the same as if Person C negligently killed Person D?
AUTOADVERT
Bippity10
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1/3/2007  9:09 PM
Ariza would not have made a difference for us. Until we build a foundation and quit pretending that our guards are superstars we will always have players come here and have no impact and then go elsewhere and shine in their roles.

Enough tinkering. Find a cornerstone and build around it with complimentary pieces. Every champion since the dawn of time has been built this way yet we try different.
I just hope that people will like me
djsunyc
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1/3/2007  9:10 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Ariza would not have made a difference for us. Until we build a foundation and quit pretending that our guards are superstars we will always have players come here and have no impact and then go elsewhere and shine in their roles.

Enough tinkering. Find a cornerstone and build around it with complimentary pieces. Every champion since the dawn of time has been built this way yet we try different.

and until you find one, you CUT PAYROLL and just draft.
Bippity10
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1/3/2007  9:12 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Bippity10:

Ariza would not have made a difference for us. Until we build a foundation and quit pretending that our guards are superstars we will always have players come here and have no impact and then go elsewhere and shine in their roles.

Enough tinkering. Find a cornerstone and build around it with complimentary pieces. Every champion since the dawn of time has been built this way yet we try different.

and until you find one, you CUT PAYROLL and just draft.

I prefer the trade all your draft picks, get over the cap with overpaid players and fire the coach every year method myself. It works like a charm.
I just hope that people will like me
oohah
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1/3/2007  9:39 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by gunsnewing:
Good post. Reezy was a fan favorite on this board until the day he was traded. Because it was *Isiah* who traded him, suddenly most turned on him instantly (much like what happened to Keith Van Horn).

Most turned on Ariza because he did not make any progress he actually regressed last year. Of course with our luck he's doing well in Orlando. Brown haters can now use Ariza regressing to continue to dwell on Larry Brown while we continue to loss games to this day

Ariza didn't improve in the short sample we saw of him before he was traded, I'll agree. However, most of the board was still very high on him until the moment he was traded. That's not coincidence.

You're right, but it wasn't the guys who were pissed at Brown, or Isiah supporters who were down on Ariza. It was the Brown supporters who instantly didn't like Ariza because Ariza dared to be upset at being treated like garbage by Brown.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 03-01-2007 9:41 PM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
kam77
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1/3/2007  9:46 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

Ask yourself: WHY WOULD ZEKE BRING IN FRANCIS if he already had Marbury?

not sure, but why did he waste a draft pick on nate, a 5'7 shooting guard replica of marbury?
why didn't he protect the picks when everybody and their mother didn't think we would finish with 23 wins?
why trade for mo taylor and give up a 2nd round pick and then waive him 1 year later?
why...

Nice and convenient tactic djsu... ignore the point and argue something else.

Why didn't he protect the picks? Because Chicago didn't want them protected. The price for dropping the protection and or adding the second first rounder was rumored to be David lee. Remember that? You can't have it both ways.

Why N8? Because he believes N8 will become something special. I think N8 needs a head change but he has the potentil to be a good defender like he was in college, and he's already a good 3pt shooter and FG shooter.

Why Mo Taylor? Hey... I'm not saying EVERY move was a good one. I give you Mo.

lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
newyorknewyork
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1/3/2007  9:51 PM
The ex factor is the fact that Larry Brown came out and said that he wanted Francis. And James Dolan came out and said that Brown begged for the deal. I can't tell you if Dolan is a liar or not though.

Brown is very well known for turning on players quickly, asking for players to be traded, making a ton of roster moves. He how many times was Iverson almost traded in Philly. They said in Detroit Brown wanated to trade the whole team at one point or another.

First some of you guys say that Isiah doesn't grant his coaches the power to make any roster moves. Then you turn around and say that Isiah should have stood up to Brown if Brown did want the deal. Well which one is it?

Imma stick with my view that Brown wanted Francis, begged for Francis, and sold Isiah & Dolan that he would make things happen with a Marbury-Francis backcourt. With the agreement that they will build up Francis value and trade him again in the future. But Isiah is in charge of the pieces used in the deal. Ariza was the one least valued out of Frye, Lee, Nate. Thats what Orlando was willing to agree to. So Penny & Ariza for Francis it was.

I agree with the poster that stated though that Ariza is probably playing better in Orlando than he would with the Knicks at this point. With guys like Nelson & Howard playing at the level they are playing it is making things so much easier for Ariza. Also the fact that nobody is watching the Orlando games. All we are going by is Ariza's stats and espn sportcenter. Eddie Curry is averaging 18pts 7rebs right now. And people on this board are still killing him. Im sure if Ariza was on the Knicks right now there would be people saying we need to move him for a pure outside shooter since he couldn't capitilize on Eddie Curry's post up game. Since we would able to break down every detail of his game first hand. Instead of going by stats. I hope Reezy does well and has a good long career. He was very entertaining in his short stay in NY.
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djsunyc
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1/3/2007  9:52 PM
Posted by kam77:
Posted by djsunyc:

Ask yourself: WHY WOULD ZEKE BRING IN FRANCIS if he already had Marbury?

not sure, but why did he waste a draft pick on nate, a 5'7 shooting guard replica of marbury?
why didn't he protect the picks when everybody and their mother didn't think we would finish with 23 wins?
why trade for mo taylor and give up a 2nd round pick and then waive him 1 year later?
why...

Nice and convenient tactic djsu... ignore the point and argue something else.

Why didn't he protect the picks? Because Chicago didn't want them protected. The price for dropping the protection and or adding the second first rounder was rumored to be David lee. Remember that? You can't have it both ways.

Why N8? Because he believes N8 will become something special. I think N8 needs a head change but he has the potentil to be a good defender like he was in college, and he's already a good 3pt shooter and FG shooter.

Why Mo Taylor? Hey... I'm not saying EVERY move was a good one. I give you Mo.

it's not a tactic. it's to highlight why i think isiah made the move for francis, b/c that's been his pattern as a gm. get the best talent possible regardless of fit or redundancy.
crzymdups
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1/3/2007  9:52 PM
Anyone who thinks that Brown didn't ask for Francis to try to get rid of Marbury is DELUSIONAL.

Still, as Isles and others have pointed out 1,315 times, the fact that Zeke acceded to this ridiculous trade suggestion (out of what? desperation? stupidity? trying to make it Larry's fault?) is just as damning to Zeke as it is to Larry.
¿ △ ?
McK1
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1/4/2007  1:03 PM
Posted by Anji:
Posted by McK1:

Ariza sat last season after the trade. perhaps if there were leaders like Jameer Dwight and Grant Hill on the Knicks, Ariza may have developed here into the player he is becoming there. I recall reading articles over the summer about him hitting the gym with his Magic teammates. But nope he was subjected to Bentley-bury and that feeling of entitlement.


I remember a story,but it was knicks fans calling Ariza a bum, crazy, delusional for turning down going to the summer league................. was it at the bottom of that story?????



[Edited by - anji on 01-03-2007 5:18 PM]


no it wasn't that story...and Ariza was delusional for not playing in the Knick's summer league
& so was Mike Sweetney.




the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
MS
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1/4/2007  2:15 PM
Saying Ariza wouldn't have made a difference isn't true, JJ2 would not be signed and we would have someone that brings something different to the table. At least he has the ability to go by people jj is awful......and ariza was signed for nothing
subzero0
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1/4/2007  3:47 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

The ex factor is the fact that Larry Brown came out and said that he wanted Francis. And James Dolan came out and said that Brown begged for the deal. I can't tell you if Dolan is a liar or not though.

Brown is very well known for turning on players quickly, asking for players to be traded, making a ton of roster moves. He how many times was Iverson almost traded in Philly. They said in Detroit Brown wanated to trade the whole team at one point or another.

First some of you guys say that Isiah doesn't grant his coaches the power to make any roster moves. Then you turn around and say that Isiah should have stood up to Brown if Brown did want the deal. Well which one is it?

Imma stick with my view that Brown wanted Francis, begged for Francis, and sold Isiah & Dolan that he would make things happen with a Marbury-Francis backcourt. With the agreement that they will build up Francis value and trade him again in the future. But Isiah is in charge of the pieces used in the deal. Ariza was the one least valued out of Frye, Lee, Nate. Thats what Orlando was willing to agree to. So Penny & Ariza for Francis it was.

I agree with the poster that stated though that Ariza is probably playing better in Orlando than he would with the Knicks at this point. With guys like Nelson & Howard playing at the level they are playing it is making things so much easier for Ariza. Also the fact that nobody is watching the Orlando games. All we are going by is Ariza's stats and espn sportcenter. Eddie Curry is averaging 18pts 7rebs right now. And people on this board are still killing him. Im sure if Ariza was on the Knicks right now there would be people saying we need to move him for a pure outside shooter since he couldn't capitilize on Eddie Curry's post up game. Since we would able to break down every detail of his game first hand. Instead of going by stats. I hope Reezy does well and has a good long career. He was very entertaining in his short stay in NY.

Best post I've read today.
PresIke
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1/4/2007  4:14 PM
Nice to see Ariza doing well, but let's get real. Many Knick fans did not think he would amount to much offensively. The main reason most Knick fans were having a heart attack about that deal was taking on Francis and getting rid of Penny's ending deal.

Trevor went from loved, to no love, to loved, to no love...

I haven't seen him play this year, but Balkman seemed to me to be a better finisher than Trev if I compare Ariza on the Knicks to Balkman.

I think we also need to see more consistency before hailing him all that much. He's getting the minutes and doing something with them. One wonders what Balkman would put up, numbers wise, if he got more minutes.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
bigbeast
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1/4/2007  4:22 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

The ex factor is the fact that Larry Brown came out and said that he wanted Francis. And James Dolan came out and said that Brown begged for the deal. I can't tell you if Dolan is a liar or not though.

Brown is very well known for turning on players quickly, asking for players to be traded, making a ton of roster moves. He how many times was Iverson almost traded in Philly. They said in Detroit Brown wanated to trade the whole team at one point or another.

First some of you guys say that Isiah doesn't grant his coaches the power to make any roster moves. Then you turn around and say that Isiah should have stood up to Brown if Brown did want the deal. Well which one is it?

Imma stick with my view that Brown wanted Francis, begged for Francis, and sold Isiah & Dolan that he would make things happen with a Marbury-Francis backcourt. With the agreement that they will build up Francis value and trade him again in the future. But Isiah is in charge of the pieces used in the deal. Ariza was the one least valued out of Frye, Lee, Nate. Thats what Orlando was willing to agree to. So Penny & Ariza for Francis it was.

I agree with the poster that stated though that Ariza is probably playing better in Orlando than he would with the Knicks at this point. With guys like Nelson & Howard playing at the level they are playing it is making things so much easier for Ariza. Also the fact that nobody is watching the Orlando games. All we are going by is Ariza's stats and espn sportcenter. Eddie Curry is averaging 18pts 7rebs right now. And people on this board are still killing him. Im sure if Ariza was on the Knicks right now there would be people saying we need to move him for a pure outside shooter since he couldn't capitilize on Eddie Curry's post up game. Since we would able to break down every detail of his game first hand. Instead of going by stats. I hope Reezy does well and has a good long career. He was very entertaining in his short stay in NY.


Couldn't have said it any better. Good post.
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
Bippity10
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1/4/2007  5:35 PM
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

The ex factor is the fact that Larry Brown came out and said that he wanted Francis. And James Dolan came out and said that Brown begged for the deal. I can't tell you if Dolan is a liar or not though.

Brown is very well known for turning on players quickly, asking for players to be traded, making a ton of roster moves. He how many times was Iverson almost traded in Philly. They said in Detroit Brown wanated to trade the whole team at one point or another.

First some of you guys say that Isiah doesn't grant his coaches the power to make any roster moves. Then you turn around and say that Isiah should have stood up to Brown if Brown did want the deal. Well which one is it?

Imma stick with my view that Brown wanted Francis, begged for Francis, and sold Isiah & Dolan that he would make things happen with a Marbury-Francis backcourt. With the agreement that they will build up Francis value and trade him again in the future. But Isiah is in charge of the pieces used in the deal. Ariza was the one least valued out of Frye, Lee, Nate. Thats what Orlando was willing to agree to. So Penny & Ariza for Francis it was.

I agree with the poster that stated though that Ariza is probably playing better in Orlando than he would with the Knicks at this point. With guys like Nelson & Howard playing at the level they are playing it is making things so much easier for Ariza. Also the fact that nobody is watching the Orlando games. All we are going by is Ariza's stats and espn sportcenter. Eddie Curry is averaging 18pts 7rebs right now. And people on this board are still killing him. Im sure if Ariza was on the Knicks right now there would be people saying we need to move him for a pure outside shooter since he couldn't capitilize on Eddie Curry's post up game. Since we would able to break down every detail of his game first hand. Instead of going by stats. I hope Reezy does well and has a good long career. He was very entertaining in his short stay in NY.


Couldn't have said it any better. Good post.

So the summary of that post is that Isiah hired a coach who obviously had a different vision for the team than himself.

When you are GM you are the person in charge of personnel. You have a vision of what you want your team to look like. You go out and hire the coach that fits that vision and can coach the players you want. Or you hire the coach and then help the coach build his vision. Either way you have to be on the same page. Unfortunately in NY we never have that scenario and since JVG left every coach that has been here has paid the price for this lack of a plan.
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crzymdups
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1/4/2007  5:37 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

The ex factor is the fact that Larry Brown came out and said that he wanted Francis. And James Dolan came out and said that Brown begged for the deal. I can't tell you if Dolan is a liar or not though.

Brown is very well known for turning on players quickly, asking for players to be traded, making a ton of roster moves. He how many times was Iverson almost traded in Philly. They said in Detroit Brown wanated to trade the whole team at one point or another.

First some of you guys say that Isiah doesn't grant his coaches the power to make any roster moves. Then you turn around and say that Isiah should have stood up to Brown if Brown did want the deal. Well which one is it?

Imma stick with my view that Brown wanted Francis, begged for Francis, and sold Isiah & Dolan that he would make things happen with a Marbury-Francis backcourt. With the agreement that they will build up Francis value and trade him again in the future. But Isiah is in charge of the pieces used in the deal. Ariza was the one least valued out of Frye, Lee, Nate. Thats what Orlando was willing to agree to. So Penny & Ariza for Francis it was.

I agree with the poster that stated though that Ariza is probably playing better in Orlando than he would with the Knicks at this point. With guys like Nelson & Howard playing at the level they are playing it is making things so much easier for Ariza. Also the fact that nobody is watching the Orlando games. All we are going by is Ariza's stats and espn sportcenter. Eddie Curry is averaging 18pts 7rebs right now. And people on this board are still killing him. Im sure if Ariza was on the Knicks right now there would be people saying we need to move him for a pure outside shooter since he couldn't capitilize on Eddie Curry's post up game. Since we would able to break down every detail of his game first hand. Instead of going by stats. I hope Reezy does well and has a good long career. He was very entertaining in his short stay in NY.

Worth quoting again. Nice post.
¿ △ ?
Bippity10
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1/4/2007  5:46 PM
By the way that was me that said Ariza would probably not be producing as well on our team as he is in Orlando because his role would be very different here.

I just think as a fan base and as an organization we are constantly focused on who's fault things are. We are constantly looking to tear away by firing someone for last years failures. Instead of figuring out what works and honestly assessing what doesn't and then building on top of it.

To me losing Ariza is not the issue. Watching your players shine elsehwere happens to every team every year. The issue is that ONCE AGAIN we had a situation where the GM/Coach are not on the same page. Who cares who's fault it is. To me it's not Isiah's and it's not LB's. It was both of them. But even if it's all Isiah's or all Brown's fault again that is not the issue. The issue is the fact that this happened YET AGAIN. And we are so focused on getting back at LB and Don and Lenny(not to exclude JVG and Herb) that we are completely ignoring this issue that crops up year after year.

I've been writing the same shiot since 2000. One day the Knicks will realize there is only one way to build. Your leadership must be on the same page. Stop the F'in blame game and BUILD A TEAM! Develop a vision and stick to it.
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Bippity10
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1/4/2007  5:48 PM
We fire Don, Lenny, Herb, LB and are now criticizing Isiah's coaching abilities. At some point in time after watching the same thing year after year we will realize the coach isn't the problem.
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MS
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1/4/2007  5:50 PM
Isiah knows how to find talent he just doesn't know what to do with it.....AND larry is tough to deal with it we all know that.

He thought he had a vetran team coming in, and then a number of moves were made.

Thomas/James
Sweetney/Frye
Thomas/Ariza
Crawford
Marbury

Thats what Larry though he was working with, and the roster changed so maybe the view changed, but i really think you have to be braindead if your a gm, and a player like odom is out there and you can swap him for frye.....not only to you fill a positional need, you get one of the better players at his position in the nba.....but logic says otherwise, bring in a fourth player that is exactly the same as your other guards....

So i am to believe that isiah and dolan agreed to bring in one of the biggest headcases in the nba, someone that held out when he was drafted, started problem in houston and orlando and complains like a ****ing child, someone that was undersized, banished or injured who knows, to mess with the same exact player, two guys that need the ball, one is a bigger baby than the other, yeah i buy into that. Fucking dumbest thing i have ever heard that they went for the deal even if its true.......

But it was worth it for one of the many isiah gems in the press conference somewhere that he flourishes......"it's crazier enough it just might work" that made a lot of sense to me
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1/5/2007  11:01 AM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by kam77:
Posted by djsunyc:

Ask yourself: WHY WOULD ZEKE BRING IN FRANCIS if he already had Marbury?

not sure, but why did he waste a draft pick on nate, a 5'7 shooting guard replica of marbury?
why didn't he protect the picks when everybody and their mother didn't think we would finish with 23 wins?
why trade for mo taylor and give up a 2nd round pick and then waive him 1 year later?
why...

Nice and convenient tactic djsu... ignore the point and argue something else.

Why didn't he protect the picks? Because Chicago didn't want them protected. The price for dropping the protection and or adding the second first rounder was rumored to be David lee. Remember that? You can't have it both ways.

Why N8? Because he believes N8 will become something special. I think N8 needs a head change but he has the potentil to be a good defender like he was in college, and he's already a good 3pt shooter and FG shooter.

Why Mo Taylor? Hey... I'm not saying EVERY move was a good one. I give you Mo.

it's not a tactic. it's to highlight why i think isiah made the move for francis, b/c that's been his pattern as a gm. get the best talent possible regardless of fit or redundancy.

This is disingenuous. You know your boy wanted him, you still defend LB in spite of everything, its really amazing.
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