Posted by oohah:

The same dudes who lay the Francis trade at Isiah's feet and no one else's are the same ones who have told me numerous times that you have to let an HOF coach like Brown "Shop for his own groceries".

Francis is one of Brown's shopping items, I hope that isn't being debated.

Is that a double-standard?

oohah

Posted by bigbeast:

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by islesfan:

Larry wanted Marbury gone way before Rose or Francis got here. Why wasn't that trade made then?

I'm not holding my breath for an answer to that one.

Also, if Brown could make Isiah get him whoever he wanted how come we don't have Snow, Lynch, Ratliff and every other washed up vet his detractors insisted he wanted.

What Gm is trading for Marbs with all that milage on his legs and contract?

In a radio interview about a year ago, when Isiah was, at least publicly, still supporting Brown, Mike Francessa asked Isiah something to the effect of:

"Marbury and Brown clearly aren't seeing eye to eye here. If they can't work it out is Marbury's contract even moveable?"

"I think I've already demonstrated an ability to move difficult contracts."

Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

Ariza should be a Bull. Isiah refused to include Ariza in the Curry trade and thats where the swap option came from. If Isiah included Ariza there would not be a swap option. I dont like Larry Brown but he was right. Ariza was delusional

Posted by BlueSeats:

Personally, I'm not in the conversation to assign blame, it's just a matter of logic. Can you guys see how this would be a different conversation if the trades were for Lynch and Snow rather than Jalen and Francis? Or if LB didin't appear morose at the Francis press conference? Or if he showed Jalen and Francis favoritism? Those things would point to this having LBs hand behind it, but that wasn't what we saw.

Truth be told, if I wanted this to be purely a "Larry is better than Isiah" conversation I'd take a different tack. I'd say:

"These may be Larry's deals but at least he's better at trading than Isiah. One could argue that from a talent and value standpoint Jalen is commesurate with Mo, and Francis is commesurate with Marbury. But whereas in getting Mo (a deferred expiring contract with some offensive skills) Isiah lost a second round pick while Larry, in getting Jalen (a deferred expiring contract with some offensive skills) gained a first round pick. Similarly, in getting Marbury Isiah not only traded expiring contracts for a ball dominator he also took on Penny and gave up Lampe, rights to Vujanic and two first round picks, while for Francis Larry only gave up Ariza but no picks and additional baggage/salaries like Penny. Therefore Larry got better value on his deals and beat Isiah at his own game."

But I'm NOT doing that. I'm simply following the logic train that the organization itself floated, which is that these guys were acquired as trade assets. I couldn't find the specific article where it was leaked but the Francis trade went down Feb. 22nd and by the 25th we were reading this:

Casey Calls Daily News Report Close To Tampering
25th February, 2006 - 12:08 pm
St. Paul Pioneer Press - Dwane Casey wasn't pleased with a story in Friday's New York Daily News that mentioned that New York Knicks President Isiah Thomas, according to "several league sources," is planning to make a run at acquiring Wolves forward Kevin Garnett.

"Whoever it is in the papers talking about trading for our guy, it's as close to tampering as you can get," Casey said. "But you can't prove anything. I'm sure New York can't control it just like we can't control what you guys may talk about. It's not good when you talk about trading our star player, the face of our franchise."

------

In fact on the 23rd, THE DAY AFTER THE TRADE, we were reading this:

02.23.06
Logan : Francis Aquisition Part Of Knicks’ KG Pursuit
Posted in Basketball at 1:26 am by GC

Newsday’s Greg Logan offers at long last, some insight as to why Isiah Thomas was so hellbent on trading one of his few tangible bargaining chips (Penny’s expiring contract) for another shoot-first, get-traded-later guard in the form of Steve Francis.

Although Thomas said he’s satisfied with the team as it is, several NBA executives said it’s likely Knicks shooting guard Jamal Crawford will be traded to Denver for backup point guard Earl Watson by today’s 3 p.m. NBA trade deadline. The Nuggets need a shooting guard, the Knicks need a backup point guard who doesn’t require shots, and the salaries fit NBA trade guidelines.


Thomas and coach Larry Brown put a unified, happy face on the deal for Francis, who makes $13.77 million this year and is under contract for another three seasons totaling $48.7 million...... But executives and personnel experts around the league questioned the odd coupling, said Brown was not in favor and suggested yesterday’s deal was part of a risky long-term strategy by Thomas to trade for superstar Minnesota forward Kevin Garnett (above, right) this summer.

One NBA general manager said Thomas sold Knicks owner James Dolan on a strategy to stockpile as many marketable assets as possible to make a play for Garnett, who has grown increasingly restless with the Timberwolves, who now might be ready to consider trading him.

------

So this theory was not something recently constructed by Peter Vescey, it was planted by the organization immediately, and it fits the pattern of Larry's glumness at the press conference and lack of commitment to these guys on the court.

Let's also recall some of the other rumors of the time:

Isiah wants to buy in bulk

HOUSTON - Isiah Thomas' conversations with Seattle have centered on Reggie Evans and Danny Fortson, a sign that the Knicks are trying to surround Eddy Curry with rugged power forwards.

Malik Rose is a similar-type player, but the Knicks, according to league sources, are willing to trade Rose and perhaps Trevor Ariza to the Sonics if they can get Fortson and Evans in return.

With Antonio Davis gone, Rose has emerged as the vocal leader in the locker room. He is also the lone Knick with a championship pedigree, having won two titles with the San Antonio Spurs.

"Malik has been great," Larry Brown said of Rose being a positive influence on the team's younger players. "He's really been helpful. A number of them have talked to me about that.

--------

and

Small Forward Is Knicks' Big Problem
December 4, 2005
Matt Barnes started on opening night in Boston but now he has been released. The move could give the Knicks more flexibility to pursue another option at the small forward position. The talk is of a trade with the Blazers for Darius Miles and/or Ruben Patterson. Darvin Ham, Rodney White and George Lynch are available free-agents who can bolster the Knicks' roster at the 3 spot.

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So again, if those (Evans, Fortson, Patterson, Miles, Watson, etc) were the trades that went down I'd be more inclined to accept them as Brown driven because they involve the defensive oriented role players we know he appreciates. But the Jalen and Francis trades defy that logic and follow much more closely the flashy attention getting name brand, collecting of assets approach, that has characterized Isiah's tenure here.

It's simply a matter of fitting the round peg into the round hole.

Posted by nyk4ever:

Definitions of public relations on the Web:
* activity, communications, or press coverage that is designed to enhance the prestige or goodwill of a company.

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

Ariza should be a Bull. Isiah refused to include Ariza in the Curry trade and thats where the swap option came from. If Isiah included Ariza there would not be a swap option. I dont like Larry Brown but he was right. Ariza was delusional

You keep repeating that but I have never heard such a story or even media coverage of the possibility. Some reporters thought Lee might be the player that could be included in order to have the picks be protected but not Ariza. Why would the Bulls give up two potential lottery picks for some guy drafted in the middle of the 2nd round? That makes no sense.

Posted by oohah:

Blue, it seems like an awful lot of speculation, just like before Thomas was here, and it will be the same long after he is gone:

Although Thomas said he’s satisfied with the team as it is, several NBA executives said it’s likely Knicks shooting guard Jamal Crawford will be traded to Denver for backup point guard Earl Watson by today’s 3 p.m. NBA trade deadline. The Nuggets need a shooting guard, the Knicks need a backup point guard who doesn’t require shots, and the salaries fit NBA trade guidelines.

But executives and personnel experts around the league questioned the odd coupling, said Brown was not in favor and suggested yesterday’s deal was part of a risky long-term strategy by Thomas to trade for superstar Minnesota forward Kevin Garnett (above, right) this summer.

One NBA general manager said Thomas sold Knicks owner James Dolan on a strategy to stockpile as many marketable assets as possible to make a play for Garnett, who has grown increasingly restless with the Timberwolves, who now might be ready to consider trading him.

Who are these executives....and why do we care about or believe anything they say? Look how wrong they were about JC!!!

On the other hand, Brown stated he wanted Francis plain as day. Now Francis is here. So who should we believe, Francis, Dolan, and Isiah, men opposed to ach other who have made the same exact claim, or anonymous executives and sources who are wrong more often than not?

oohah

Posted by nyk4ever:

It's not to tough to comprehend.

By the same logic, Isiah and Dolan have also both admitted that Isiah wanted Francis. So case closed, right?