Dumars is a good ex there is no question, however

Darko over Wade/Bosh/Melo, he didn't have a power foward at the time. And you can make a case for taking the best player and then moving him or someone else on your roster, and his drafting has been very suspect....but he got them to the championship and a title.....

You need to get lucky and he did when Wallace was hand delievered thanks to Ainge hating Isiah

The Darko deal will come back to bite him, also didn't like him giving up Mo Evans for nothing.....

Being a general manager is not easy because your dealing with dips ****s that don't play for love, just for money, and the long term deals are a big part of turning off fans because the players just retire after they get them

Posted by djsunyc:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by djsunyc:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by djsunyc:

so far, everything isiah has done has failed as a GM

Q Rich - playing like an Allstar - success
David Lee, Nate Robinson, Renaldo Balkman, Mardy Collins - all promising talent picked by Isiah in the draft - successes
Malik Rose - draft pick was received in the deal that brought him here, which netted David Lee, so this would have to be considered a success

Channing Frye, Jared Jefferies & Jamal Crawford - jury's still out imo
Eddy Curry - looking more & more like a failure, but no final judgement just yet because he's still young & can improve

Marbury, Francis, Big Turd James, Penny Hardaway, Tim Thomas & Jalen Rose - disastrous failures


I forget if we got a draft pick in the Mo Taylor trade that netted us any players.


some of Isiah's moves have worked out... i can't say w/an unbiased eye that everything Isiah's done as a GM has been a failure... the record is what it is, but the future of this team looks brighter right now than it did when Layden was the GM of this team.

[Edited by - TMS on 11-17-2006 12:54 PM]

do wins matter?

isiah thomas is the president of the new york knicks. there were 14,000 people at the last game (even less that actually attended) and ZERO games on national tv. that aspect of the team also falls under his umbrella.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 11-17-2006 12:58 PM]

dj, be honest with me... do you feel more depressed about this roster right now than you did when we Layden was fired as GM? the only bright spot i could look to when Layden left was that Frank Williams was showing some promise as a PG... i didn't feel like KT was going to be an essential cog in any championship run, nor did i feel that Allan Houston or Antonio McDyess would ever return to Allstar form... the team was hopelessly capped out at that point for several years, just as they are now, but they had much older players w/no upside to improve along w/2 former Allstar players w/knees that would not allow them to be effective any longer... the Knicks now have a nice core of young players to build with to replace guys like Clarence Weatherspoon, Travis Knight, Shandon Anderson & Howard Eisley... they're just lacking that franchise guy that we haven't had since Ewing left, but that's nothing new.

I'm not trying to say Isiah's done a good job since he's been here... everyone knows how i feel about Marbury & Big Turd obviously... but he doesn't deserve all the flack he's been getting either imo... the Wins & Losses don't matter to me at this point... i care about the longterm potential to improve, & right now, i can honestly say that i like the current team's chances to improve to be better than Layden's teams ever were or had any chance of becoming.

i'm not comparing isiah to layden. the hobo down the block is better than layden. i'm comparing isiah to his contemporaries like paxson and dumars. neither had cap hell like isiah BUT neither took on long term contracts with the cap room they had so they kind of operated under similar constraints...building via the draft, shrewed MLE signings for cheap and shrewd deals. isiah was in a major position of weakness when he took the job BUT the plan he used definitely wasn't the best one.

we have a nice bench. but do we have a quality starting 5?

IMHO, if the Knicks were to start JJSkinny and Q, those 2 guys qualify as starters who with the right pieces around them could make up a quality playoff team. I would say that I haven't seem much of JJSkinny. The Knicks bench is high quality. The Knicks are missing 3 significant pieces in their starting lineup, and one of which has to be an elite level two-way allstar.

Paxson & Dumars are 2 of the best GM's in the NBA... Isiah obviously doesn't stack up to those guys... i'd say he's in the bottom echelon on the whole, but there were other GM's who were alot worse during his tenure here, namely Danny Ainge, Billy Knight, Babc**k... Kiki's not all that much better either imo

do we have a quality starting 5? i think we do... only Isiah's not starting some of them & 1 of them is on the IR... i would say the following starting 5 could at least contend for a playoff spot this season:

C - Curry
PF - Lee
SF - Jefferies
SG - Q Rich
PG - Jamal

Posted by MS:

Get rid of the baby bulls and i am with you

Frye is struggling right now as a starter & Nate is not ready to be a starting PG in this league... he needs to learn how to orchestrate first.

Posted by holfresh:

Posted by MS:

Dumars is a good ex there is no question, however

Darko over Wade/Bosh/Melo, he didn't have a power foward at the time. And you can make a case for taking the best player and then moving him or someone else on your roster, and his drafting has been very suspect....but he got them to the championship and a title.....

You need to get lucky and he did when Wallace was hand delievered thanks to Ainge hating Isiah

The Darko deal will come back to bite him, also didn't like him giving up Mo Evans for nothing.....

Being a general manager is not easy because your dealing with dips ****s that don't play for love, just for money, and the long term deals are a big part of turning off fans because the players just retire after they get them

How does Dumars get a pass for selecting Darko because of need and Isiah doesn't get a pass for signing big snacks because we needed a center at the time???

a career scrub in Big Turd getting a full MLE contract vs. drafting a young 19 yo 7 footer w/tons of unrealized upside potential? hmm, tough choice there.

You have to look at Isiah's time here in 2 distinct periods. The 1st 1.5 seasons were about trying to still make a go with H2O and KT. Last year and this season are about the new direction with the younger players he's been bringing in. LB didn't work, but that doesn't mean that all of his moves over that time were wrong. Further I can't give Isiah as much credit when it was LB's team to coach and he didn't even come close to doing a good job, in fact it seems that he was actually working against the team. No matter what bad moves Isiah may have made, he was NEVER actively working against the team as I believe LB was.

As it is now, it's starting to look like Isiah Doesn't have the worst judgement in the NBA. If this team continues to progress it will prove that he at least had some idea of what he was doing in putting this team together. We still have to see what effect Jared has as well, so the jury is still out.

Posted by holfresh:

Posted by MS:

Dumars is a good ex there is no question, however

Darko over Wade/Bosh/Melo, he didn't have a power foward at the time. And you can make a case for taking the best player and then moving him or someone else on your roster, and his drafting has been very suspect....but he got them to the championship and a title.....

You need to get lucky and he did when Wallace was hand delievered thanks to Ainge hating Isiah

The Darko deal will come back to bite him, also didn't like him giving up Mo Evans for nothing.....

Being a general manager is not easy because your dealing with dips ****s that don't play for love, just for money, and the long term deals are a big part of turning off fans because the players just retire after they get them

How does Dumars get a pass for selecting Darko because of need and Isiah doesn't get a pass for signing big snacks because we needed a center at the time???

Because EVERYONE knew Jerome sucked. Man I got ripped by dummies like rvhoss every day.
"Fish your an idiot... we NEED a center."
No rv (or insert other homer) we dont. We dont need guys that barely play 50 games, have inferior skills, are pushing 30 and show up fat EVERY year signed to 5 year contracts. WE DONT NEED THAT.

Darko had GREAT workouts for the Pistons. We wowed a lot of people so Detroit took him. Swing and miss. Last I checked that team won back to back conference champs though, and a title. I know winning isnt something thats valued around here or in the Knick org but most would consider that a job well done.

Your always better off doing nothing than making a bad trade. Look at what happens. The same offseason we draft Frye (center) and overpay horribly for Curry (center).

Also the JJ move is consistant with the other waste of space Isiah has brought in via trade and MLE.

Posted by holfresh:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by holfresh:

Posted by MS:

Dumars is a good ex there is no question, however

Darko over Wade/Bosh/Melo, he didn't have a power foward at the time. And you can make a case for taking the best player and then moving him or someone else on your roster, and his drafting has been very suspect....but he got them to the championship and a title.....

You need to get lucky and he did when Wallace was hand delievered thanks to Ainge hating Isiah

The Darko deal will come back to bite him, also didn't like him giving up Mo Evans for nothing.....

Being a general manager is not easy because your dealing with dips ****s that don't play for love, just for money, and the long term deals are a big part of turning off fans because the players just retire after they get them

How does Dumars get a pass for selecting Darko because of need and Isiah doesn't get a pass for signing big snacks because we needed a center at the time???

a career scrub in Big Turd getting a full MLE contract vs. drafting a young 19 yo 7 footer w/tons of unrealized upside potential? hmm, tough choice there.

Carmelo just won a Championship and was a no brainer...Kurt Thomas was option to play center...The Knicks needed a warm body in the middle if yopu remember...I mean lets be fair here...He had to sign someone...Snacks just came off a monster playoff series...

That performance was sooooo overrated. It was against a gimpy Brad Miller and who else? Even I could have done that.

Elson 2 year deal for 3 million, you see a guy like Stevenson for 2 mill, a scorer like murray for nothing, you rent you don't buy, mo williams, mo evans, etc roll players that fill a need and then you let them go instead of signing them to long term deals for no production, you take players that are fighting for something namely more money let them showcase and move on

The knicks always seem to buy

Posted by TMS:

Posted by holfresh:
Kurt Thomas was option to play center...The Knicks needed a warm body in the middle if yopu remember...I mean lets be fair here...He had to sign someone...Snacks just came off a monster playoff series...

you don't offer a guy who had a week long stretch of good games after an entire career of being a scrub a full MLE contract... if you need a warm body to play C, offer him a 2-3 yr deal at ~$3 mil per... if he wants more, tell him to go to Hell & sign another free agent or a kid out of the CBA or NBDL... Isiah found Jackie Butler w/no problem at all, & you're telling me Big Turd James at a full MLE contract was justified?

What difference does it make if he offers him 3 or 5 mil per....we are in salary hell....It doesn't matter if we signed him or not because his salary is of no consequence to anything...We needed a body...If it doesn't work out, so what...Only the fans and columnist are going to gripe about bad move but it means nothing to the ball club....You guys are acting like it's your money..

holfresh isiah is thinking in the same absurd manner you are, you keep thinking like that and you further **** the team and the cap, which is what keeps happening.....