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NEWSDAY: Isiah's got the recipe to get Curry in shape
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nyk4ever
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10/16/2006  4:21 PM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:


LB had his own agenda and it showed not only with Curry.

Isiah will play Curry signifcant minutes for sure.

[Edited by - SugarRayRichardson on 10-16-2006 4:13 PM]

What do you deem to be "significant minutes"? I understand LB played Curry less but I don't know if you can hold that against LB OR ANY coach, when the guy came off of a summer of heart problems and came into camp COMPLETELY out of shape. Also, Curry really only played 2.6 less MPG than he did the year before with the Bulls.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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SugarRayRichardson
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10/16/2006  4:24 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:
Posted by BlueSeats:
In the same way nobody concocted a grand media conspiracy to smear marbury's image, it's also true that guys like Cartright, Floyd, Skiles, LB and isiah haven't colluded to keep Eddy off the floor.

Cartwright, Floyd, and Skiles all brought Curry along in a normal manner increasing his minutes/production basically every year. He was an 18 year old kid playing against the best men in the world. Skiles had Curry playing the 2nd most minutes on the Bulls team.

LB had his own agenda and it showed not only with Curry.

Isiah will play Curry signifcant minutes for sure.



[Edited by - SugarRayRichardson on 10-16-2006 4:13 PM]

Sugar Ray did you even read my post about the quotes and frustration that Skiles had for Curry picking up fouls? Is what I posted nonsense or just refutes your point so it's worth ignoring. Again do a google search you will find that this was a common theme before LB. You hate LB we get it. LB messed with everyone on the team. We get it. That doesn't dismiss the fact that every coach that coaches Eddie Curry wants to put him on the floor 35+ minutes so that they can win games. but Eddy's conditioning, fouls and lack of committment to the game prevent this. Again, why do we continue to make excuses for underachievers. It's Eddie's job to get on the floor. If he stays out of foul trouble his minutes will skyrocket. It's such a simple solution, that debating it is mind numbing. LB was a lot of things. LB did a lot of things wrong last year. LB messed with Eddie last year. This still doesn't explain why the same complaints have followed Eddie for 5 years going on 6. Only he can change it.

Let's just settle on this. Eddie has been out of shape for a long time. Eddie needs polishing in the post to prevent offensive fouls. LB is the anti-christ.

A few articles of skiles speaking about Eddy picking up fouls is nothing. I could find coachs saying all sorts of things about players. That doesnt mean much unless taken in a full context of other quotes. I'm sure you failed to post any positive quotes from Skiles by accident. Skiles played curry the 2nd most minutes on the whole team. That speaks for itself.

Once again almost every NY Knick Vets minutes declined under LB. Not just Curry.
All these vet players had their minutes cut from prior years under LB
Marbs
Crawford
Francis
Q rich
Antonio Davis
Jerome James
Malik rose
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
BlueSeats
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10/16/2006  4:27 PM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:
Posted by BlueSeats:
In the same way nobody concocted a grand media conspiracy to smear marbury's image, it's also true that guys like Cartright, Floyd, Skiles, LB and isiah haven't colluded to keep Eddy off the floor.

Cartwright, Floyd, and Skiles all brought Curry along in a normal manner increasing his minutes/production basically every year. He was an 18 year old kid playing against the best men in the world. Skiles had Curry playing the 2nd most minutes on the Bulls team.

LB had his own agenda and it showed not only with Curry.

Isiah will play Curry signifcant minutes for sure.


Everyone's minutes were down under Brown, but with all that, even in a season where Eddy had not played ball since, (what?) February or March the year prior because of a potential career enduing heart condition, Eddy's mpg was all of 3 minutes down from the year prior.

I agree with you that Isiah will up Eddy's minutes. He said as much, and if for no other reason he needs to do it to increase Eddy's stats to justify the trade. And I'm taking that assertion from his words more than mine. His minutes and concomitant production will also be aided to injuries to James and the loss of Butler, who was a backup of some worth.
SugarRayRichardson
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10/16/2006  4:28 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:


LB had his own agenda and it showed not only with Curry.

Isiah will play Curry signifcant minutes for sure.

[Edited by - SugarRayRichardson on 10-16-2006 4:13 PM]

What do you deem to be "significant minutes"? I understand LB played Curry less but I don't know if you can hold that against LB OR ANY coach, when the guy came off of a summer of heart problems and came into camp COMPLETELY out of shape. Also, Curry really only played 2.6 less MPG than he did the year before with the Bulls.


Curry basically played 29.5-30 min a game his last 2 years as a Bull. The last year as a Bull has his final mpg/ppg stats pulled down by a few games he had injury/heart problems where he played 8 minutes or less. I expect Curry to play 32 mpg this season if he plays hard and earns those minutes. I dont think any Knick will play over 35 minutes a game.
I look for curry to put up these numbers:
32mpg-17ppg-8.5rpg-1bpg-55%FGP
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
Bippity10
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10/16/2006  4:31 PM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:
Posted by BlueSeats:
In the same way nobody concocted a grand media conspiracy to smear marbury's image, it's also true that guys like Cartright, Floyd, Skiles, LB and isiah haven't colluded to keep Eddy off the floor.

Cartwright, Floyd, and Skiles all brought Curry along in a normal manner increasing his minutes/production basically every year. He was an 18 year old kid playing against the best men in the world. Skiles had Curry playing the 2nd most minutes on the Bulls team.

LB had his own agenda and it showed not only with Curry.

Isiah will play Curry signifcant minutes for sure.



[Edited by - SugarRayRichardson on 10-16-2006 4:13 PM]

Sugar Ray did you even read my post about the quotes and frustration that Skiles had for Curry picking up fouls? Is what I posted nonsense or just refutes your point so it's worth ignoring. Again do a google search you will find that this was a common theme before LB. You hate LB we get it. LB messed with everyone on the team. We get it. That doesn't dismiss the fact that every coach that coaches Eddie Curry wants to put him on the floor 35+ minutes so that they can win games. but Eddy's conditioning, fouls and lack of committment to the game prevent this. Again, why do we continue to make excuses for underachievers. It's Eddie's job to get on the floor. If he stays out of foul trouble his minutes will skyrocket. It's such a simple solution, that debating it is mind numbing. LB was a lot of things. LB did a lot of things wrong last year. LB messed with Eddie last year. This still doesn't explain why the same complaints have followed Eddie for 5 years going on 6. Only he can change it.

Let's just settle on this. Eddie has been out of shape for a long time. Eddie needs polishing in the post to prevent offensive fouls. LB is the anti-christ.

A few articles of skiles speaking about Eddy picking up fouls is nothing. I could find coachs saying all sorts of things about players. That doesnt mean much unless taken in a full context of other quotes. I'm sure you failed to post any positive quotes from Skiles by accident. Skiles played curry the 2nd most minutes on the whole team. That speaks for itself.

Once again almost every NY Knick Vets minutes declined under LB. Not just Curry.
All these vet players had their minutes cut from prior years under LB
Marbs
Crawford
Francis
Q rich
Antonio Davis
Jerome James
Malik rose

I didn't post positive quotes because that wasn't the issue. I'm sure if we do a search on Eddie Curry we can find thousands of articles raving about his potential. Raving about his sometime dominance. But the question is why has he never averaged 30 minutes per game. What do you think the reasons are? I just note a common theme. This is not the first time his foul trouble has been listed as the reason he hasn't played. I'm sure if you did a search for Jamal Crawford and LB and foul trouble you won't find any articles about LB's frustration with him continually getting in foul trouble. I'm sure if you do a search about Allan Houston and JVG you won't find page after page of JVG complaining about him getting into foul trouble. But for some reason when you do a search of Curry and foul trouble there are thousands of articles. Do your own research don't trust mine.

Again. you hate LB. We get that. You like Curry. We get that. All that is fine. But denying that Curry needs to improve his conditioning and stay out of foul trouble so we can increase his minutes is just, odd.
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Pharzeone
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10/16/2006  4:31 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

You are going to tell me that come game 40 if Curry is still consistently picking up the same offensive charge fouls and reach in nonsense that Isiah will continue to show patience and leave him in? I know you guys hate LB so all your thoughts are shaded by what LB would or wouldn't do. But this is not an LB issue. It's a Curry issue. It's about a guy that still needs to get in condition and still needs to work on staying out of foul trouble to help us. Again I know we hate LB and despise him for everything. But Curry's minutes last year were 4 minutes below his career high of 29 minutes per game two years ago. This is not a new phenomenon. It is up to Curry to fix it. IF he doesn't and committs the same silly fouls he has for 5 years Isiah will go small too. Isiah has the talent to do it. He can go three guards and use Jeffries and Frye at the 5, so don't be surprised.

Curry must change. It's on him. No more excuses. He must get in shape and stop the fouls. It's not the coach's fault. It is him.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 10-16-2006 1:29 PM]

Bip you thinking about officating at a lower level versus the NBA. Look at what Riley does. He challenges the officials to throw Shaq out of games. There are some games where Shaq picks up fouls at an unbelievable rate. Pat takes him out for a bit then just brings him back in when he feels it is necessary. Brown took Curry out and just forgot about him. You challenge officials as well as anything. It is officating. As the article states and from what I saw on Friday and the videos that I saw from Saturday. Curry was putting on the same power moves. Only thing different were different officials. That's the same thing as saying how one night Iverson can perform insane crossovers and on another night, he gets call for 3 palming violations. It is up to the officals in the NBA to remove themselves from being subjective to objective. But what do they do instead, to avoid the whole issue, they now threaten their players if they dare question a call.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Bippity10
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10/16/2006  4:38 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by Bippity10:

You are going to tell me that come game 40 if Curry is still consistently picking up the same offensive charge fouls and reach in nonsense that Isiah will continue to show patience and leave him in? I know you guys hate LB so all your thoughts are shaded by what LB would or wouldn't do. But this is not an LB issue. It's a Curry issue. It's about a guy that still needs to get in condition and still needs to work on staying out of foul trouble to help us. Again I know we hate LB and despise him for everything. But Curry's minutes last year were 4 minutes below his career high of 29 minutes per game two years ago. This is not a new phenomenon. It is up to Curry to fix it. IF he doesn't and committs the same silly fouls he has for 5 years Isiah will go small too. Isiah has the talent to do it. He can go three guards and use Jeffries and Frye at the 5, so don't be surprised.

Curry must change. It's on him. No more excuses. He must get in shape and stop the fouls. It's not the coach's fault. It is him.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 10-16-2006 1:29 PM]

Bip you thinking about officating at a lower level versus the NBA. Look at what Riley does. He challenges the officials to throw Shaq out of games. There are some games where Shaq picks up fouls at an unbelievable rate. Pat takes him out for a bit then just brings him back in when he feels it is necessary. Brown took Curry out and just forgot about him. You challenge officials as well as anything. It is officating. As the article states and from what I saw on Friday and the videos that I saw from Saturday. Curry was putting on the same power moves. Only thing different were different officials. That's the same thing as saying how one night Iverson can perform insane crossovers and on another night, he gets call for 3 palming violations. It is up to the officals in the NBA to remove themselves from being subjective to objective. But what do they do instead, to avoid the whole issue, they now threaten their players if they dare question a call.

Okay again, it's perfectly okay to question LB's use of Brown. Maybe Brown should have played him more, maybe not. If he averaged 32 minutes and his fouls go up accordingly does that really change the argument???? The point is he has to get in shape and avoid fouls right??? Does 3 or 4 more minutes a game change this? Are we nitpicking to try to erase an issue that the guy needs to fix in order to reach elite status in the NBA. Or should we continue to say it's all the coach's fault, continue to watch him rack up fouls, play 30 minutes a game underachieve. To me playing 26 minutes as opposed to 29 minutes is not the issue. The issue is does the guy finally learn to be in shape and avoid foul trouble so that we can COUNT ON HIM IN EVERY FOURTH QUARTER, NOT JUST SOME.

There is a reason why coaches fight to keep Shaq on the floor. Especially in his prime. Because your whole team was built around the guy
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BlueSeats
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10/16/2006  4:39 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:

Brown took Curry out and just forgot about him.

Brown liked Butler. Brown liked Curry in the first half and Butler in the second. Butler will never be the dominant scorer that Eddy is, but in most other facets he has a better feel for the game. You don't go through those stretches wondering if his head is in the game.

Hopefully that loss of focus with Curry comes from fatigue that he will surmount.

Bippity10
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10/16/2006  5:00 PM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:


LB had his own agenda and it showed not only with Curry.

Isiah will play Curry signifcant minutes for sure.

[Edited by - SugarRayRichardson on 10-16-2006 4:13 PM]

What do you deem to be "significant minutes"? I understand LB played Curry less but I don't know if you can hold that against LB OR ANY coach, when the guy came off of a summer of heart problems and came into camp COMPLETELY out of shape. Also, Curry really only played 2.6 less MPG than he did the year before with the Bulls.


Curry basically played 29.5-30 min a game his last 2 years as a Bull. The last year as a Bull has his final mpg/ppg stats pulled down by a few games he had injury/heart problems where he played 8 minutes or less. I expect Curry to play 32 mpg this season if he plays hard and earns those minutes. I dont think any Knick will play over 35 minutes a game.
I look for curry to put up these numbers:
32mpg-17ppg-8.5rpg-1bpg-55%FGP

"Last March, the 6-foot-11 Curry experienced an irregular heartbeat before a game against the Charlotte Bobcats. Over the next month, a battery of tests was performed. Curry maintains that the tests were unable to reveal the source of what made his heart flutter. The Bulls, bound by patient confidentiality laws, were not allowed to disclose any of their findings."-Minneapolis heart Institute


Curry's heart problem became an issue in March. Not sure of the exact date so I did his minutes per game through February. Average minutes per game 28.94. In those games that he only played 15-25 minutes you will notice a trend of 1-4 rebounds(12 of 15 games) or 4-6 fouls. Coincidence? Other than the games when he played 0 minutes there are no games of 8 minutes or left so I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers.

After March he averaged 27 minutes per game. Curry played 36 minutes on March 29th and then was forced by Skiles to shut it down after that when the heart beat was discovered. He played no minutes the rest of the season and this was not averaged in. Not sure how much more plain I can make it. Last year was not something new for Curry. I will never be able to convince you because you want to ignore the evidence but if you want to do research, search the Bulls message boards and google search Eddie and fouls. Or Eddie and rebounds. Or Eddie and conditioning. Or even Eddie and lazy and you will see the same complaints we have. It is up to him to rid the earth of these complaints. Not Isiah or any coach. Only personal accountability will change this teams fortunes. Isiah is not our savior. The players are.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 10-16-2006 5:00 PM]

[Edited by - bippity10 on 10-16-2006 5:06 PM]

[Edited by - bippity10 on 10-16-2006 5:07 PM]
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nixluva
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10/16/2006  6:48 PM
Isiah is taking steps tho to HELP the players to achieve more. That's what ANY coach is supposed to do. He can't MAKE them do anything, but if he's good he can convince them to buy into what he's doing and from what I can see he's much better at doing that than LB was. This is all that really matters at this point. The next thing is how much of an effect this has on guys like Curry. Isiah can't play for him, but at least put the guy in a situation where he can step up and excel. This is the point that some of us are trying to make.
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10/16/2006  7:23 PM
Posted by nixluva:

Isiah is taking steps tho to HELP the players to achieve more. That's what ANY coach is supposed to do. He can't MAKE them do anything, but if he's good he can convince them to buy into what he's doing and from what I can see he's much better at doing that than LB was. This is all that really matters at this point. The next thing is how much of an effect this has on guys like Curry. Isiah can't play for him, but at least put the guy in a situation where he can step up and excel. This is the point that some of us are trying to make.


Isn't that stating the obvious?

However, Dolan and Isiah have flat out said it's Isiah's job to turn Eddy into an all-star. So they hold a slightly different perspective.
nixluva
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10/16/2006  7:44 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by nixluva:

Isiah is taking steps tho to HELP the players to achieve more. That's what ANY coach is supposed to do. He can't MAKE them do anything, but if he's good he can convince them to buy into what he's doing and from what I can see he's much better at doing that than LB was. This is all that really matters at this point. The next thing is how much of an effect this has on guys like Curry. Isiah can't play for him, but at least put the guy in a situation where he can step up and excel. This is the point that some of us are trying to make.

Isn't that stating the obvious?

However, Dolan and Isiah have flat out said it's Isiah's job to turn Eddy into an all-star. So they hold a slightly different perspective.


I don't get what the significant difference is in what I said and what Isiah is saying. I'm sure Isiah knows that it's a combination of what the coach does and the players desire that can make for a successful pairing. Isiah has said that in this offense he believes that Curry can be an All Star. That's the same as me saying that he's providing the circumstances or atmosphere that will allow Curry to shine. If he can get Curry to buy in and execute what he's teaching then this will make things EASIER for Curry as well as all the players. Isiah isn't saying that he can MAKE Curry do everything right, but he can have a big effect on Curry by doing the little things. Like being supportive. Letting the guy play thru problems and we already know Curry has voiced that desire. So far Curry has been pushing himself to do more from everything i've read. If he keeps doing that he may yet learn what the proper effort level should be. Sometimes people fool themselves into thinking they're doing the best they can. That's why personal trainers push a person and help them to go beyond what they might do by themselves. Isiah is trying to do that with Curry. He's doing more than just yelling at him and getting angry and sitting him. There's always more than one way to get a job done and perhaps Isiah may find a way to get it done with Curry.

Some coaches aren't very good at trying to reach players. Some coaches prefer that a player be self motivated and that he not have to deal with dragging a guy along and coaxing him. I think Isiah has the patience and temperment to work with players like Curry. Maybe Skiles and LB weren't the right kind of guys for Curry and perhaps the coach he had before them weren't good enough to get the job done either. We assume that coaches are somehow equal in ability across the board, but they're not. They all have strengths and weaknesses like anyone else. If a student doesn't understand a concept its not always because he too stupid to get it. SOmetimes the right teacher DOES MATTER. I hope that's the case with Curry and Isiah.
eViL
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10/16/2006  7:52 PM
Here's a long article where the author has his own theory on why starting centers are seeing a decline in minutes. I don't know if anyone posted it, but I'm sure some folks might find it interesting. It definitely lends to the discussion here. I've copied it from HoopsHype. Click the title to link to the page where the article was actually posted.

***

Starting centers merit more minutes
by Dennis Hans / January 17, 2006

“We’re mad as hell and we’re not going to take it anymore.”

That’s what NBA centers should be saying. In fact, they should be screaming it from the rooftops. But for whatever reasons, they can’t or won’t. That’s why I’ve formed the mentoring and advocacy organization Short People Helping Tall People. Our first goal is to gain for our vertically gifted friends a fair shake on the basketball court, and that means playing time (PT) comparable to that of shorter players.

Compare the minutes per game and fouls per minutes of centers, with guards or forwards.

The quality starters at guard and forward average 35 to 42 minutes. At center, the range is 25 to 36. A key factor slowing the development of young centers is the dark cloud of foul trouble, which hovers over every pivot man not named Ben Wallace. It puts them on the bench for long stretches, and it makes for other stretches of timid, cautious play, for they know that one false step or reach could produce a whistle that puts them right back on the pine.

Tyson Chandler is a talented young center and terrific rebounder. Now in his fifth season, he has yet to average 30 minutes. He’s presently at 24.5, and he gets called for a foul every 7 minutes; for his career, it’s a foul every 8 minutes. Eddy Curry averages 26.1 minutes. For his career, he commits a foul every 7.8 minutes, and that’s without playing defense!

It’s not just the kids who are affected. Shaquille O'Neal is averaging a career-low 28.3 minutes and a career-high of one foul every 7 minutes. Zydrunas Ilgauskas averages 30.0 and a foul every 7.5 minutes.

As of Jan. 16, here are the centers who average more than 30 minutes: Brad Miller 37.0, Ben Wallace 36.5, PJ Brown 34.6, Yao Ming 34.0, Marcus Camby 33.6, Zaza Pachulia 31.9, Chris Kaman 31.7, Jamaal Magloire 31.3, Samuel Dalembert 30.4.

Of those, probably only Miller, Wallace, Brown and Camby are playing as many minutes as their coach would like them to play.

Here are some of the starting centers averaging under 30 minutes: Nenad Krstic 29.1, Mark Blount 29.3, Shaq 28.3, Kurt Thomas 27.3, Chris Mihm 26.9, Curry 26.1, Tony Battie 25.5, Joel Przybilla 25.4, Brendan Haywood 25.1, Lorenzen Wright 24.7, Chandler 24.5, Erick Dampier 24.5, Michael Olowokandi 24.0, Jarron Collins 23.3, Adonal Foyle 23.1, Radoslav Nesterovic 21.9, Jeff Foster 21.1.

Several of those, we readily concede, are so-so players who would hurt their team if they averaged 36 minutes. But more than a few from that mixed bag should be in the 33-39 minutes range.

Yao, who has spent most of his adult life in foul trouble, has managed to average a career-high 34 minutes this season. It should be a career low. A good young center like Yao should average at least 40. In the 2005 playoffs he averaged a paltry 31 – and a foul every 7 minutes. He and his first-round foe, Erick Dampier (who averaged but 24 minutes in his 13 playoff games, and a foul every 5.7 minutes), seemed to have two fouls apiece halfway through warmups.

If you look at the solid starters at the other positions, you’ll see foul-per-minute rates far lower than for centers. You’ll find dozens of players who get whistled once every 12, 16 or even 20 minutes. Not only do these guys get to average, say, 38 minutes; for the most part those are 38 “free-and-easy” minutes. Little of their court time is spent walking on egg shells, where the next false step could produce a whistle that sends them to the bench.

Let’s be clear: It’s a good thing that guards and forwards, in general, get loads of free-and-easy PT. Our goal is not to saddle them with foul trouble, but to sensibly alter certain rules so that it’s just as easy for quality centers – we’re not talking about stiffs, brutes and backups – to average 38 free-and-easy minutes.

Several factors contribute to the modern center’s piney plight:

- On defense, he must guard his own man, usually close to the basket where contact is a constant and the ref has just cause to blow the whistle at most any moment.

- He is playing in the Stern Era, where flopping is considered a legitimate tactic rather than cheating, and where “dislodging” is illegal on paper but rarely enforced when the defender plays it straight by trying to retain his balance. Much of low-post play has little to do with basketball skills. Instead, it’s a mix of sumo-style banging and pro-wrestling theatrics, which makes it a guessing game for both refs and players. It also leads to extra whistles when refs try to clean up a mess that the league itself needs to address.

- He is his team’s last line of defense for cutters and drivers. Depending on his coach, he may be under orders to deliberately foul the instant he senses he can’t prevent a certain deuce with a non-fouling play. The “No layups” and “Make him earn it at the line” philosophies, aside from being bad for the game, disproportionately impact centers.

- The ban on perimeter hand-checking (a well-intentioned over-reaction to excessive holding, shoving and otherwise throttling of the very players fans pay to see), now in its second season, has increased the number of drives and the speed at which penetrators reach the basket area, which has led to more fouls for big men. The top nine players in free-throw attempts are all guards and small forwards; several are heading for career highs in this category.

- He may play for one of the many coaches obsessed with preventing penetration and who require their big men to, whenever possible, turn dribble-drives and cuts to the basket into block/charge collisions. This makes for an extremely ugly game, as fans of the Bulls, Rockets, Grizzlies, Pacers, Knicks, etc., know. Block/charge demolition derbies generally mean foul trouble for bigs.

- He must battle for rebounds and rebounding position under both baskets, further increasing the likelihood of fouls.

- He’s frequently called on to set picks, which leads to an occasional foul (and usually a good call) even though it’s the center who gets run into. (Such whistles are even more frequent this season, as the NBA has made illegal screens one of its “points of emphasis.”) Sometimes he’ll get whistled because of a teammate’s poor decision, such as dribbling his man into the pick before the center has time to set his feet.

- He may be carrying extra weight, and is therefore not as quick and agile as he could be and thus is more foul prone, because the coach wants him to be a “banger” who can resist the dislodging moves of Shaq, Jermaine O’Neal, Eddy Curry and others.

In short, the modern center’s constant struggle to avoid foul trouble has little to do with him and a whole lot to do with his job requirements and the perverted nature of today’s game. But with four common sense changes we can dramatically increase PT for centers and improve the aesthetic appeal of the NBA game.

1) Make non-brutal illegal screens a loss-of-possession violation, like traveling. Only dirty picks – sticking out an elbow, forearm or bony knee – will be a foul. Probably 90 percent of illegal screens fall into the non-dirty category.

2) Quit treating intentional fouls as if they were non-intentional. Current penalties for the latter are fine; for the former, they are so weak that they function as rewards. Most intentional fouls – grabs by beaten or outmanned defenders to abort fast breaks or halfcourt drives; hugs and muggings to prevent layups and dunks – are based on the premise that the opposing team is less likely to score two points if they have to restart their offense by inbounding the ball or step to the line for a pair of free throws than if the fast break, drive or power move had continued. Only a league run by morons provides an incentive to deliberately foul. If we make the penalty an actual penalty – two points for the fouled player, and his team retains possession of the ball – refs will never have to invoke the rule because no one would be so stupid as to intentionally foul. We’ll have fewer stoppages of play, more fast breaks, less roughhousing, and fewer fouls, particularly by centers.

3) Give each team one “foul coupon.” This can be cashed in at the scorer’s table at any time of the game to remove a foul from a player’s total. The foul still counts as a team foul, but instead of Shaq, Yao or even some little dude having to sit after his sixth, the coach can keep him in the game until he draws a seventh whistle. The coupon is a “use it or lose it” proposition; you can’t horde them so Shaq can commit 43 fouls in the season finale.

4) Make it a loss-of-possession violation (not a foul) for a low-post player to back, buttwhack or low-shoulder his way into the lane. He can still enter the lane by spinning around his defender, swooping around him for a running hook, or facing up and going by the defender by pump-faking him off his feet or beating him with a quick first step. But his days of bullying his way into the lane or all the way to the hoop are over. In return, the defender can no longer lean on the posting player, which is just as well, because in the new NBA, with the accent on quickness and agility, an off-balance defender won’t stand a chance.

With these changes, we’ll not only reduce the threat of foul trouble, we’ll remake center into a full-time basketball position, where quickness, creativity and skill, rather than brute strength or a gift for flopping, are paramount.

Skinny skyscrapers such as Kevin Garnett and Chris Bosh could play center full-time without getting worn down, which would enable the league to rid itself of 40 or so big dudes who have no right to call themselves “professional athletes.” (Here at Short People Helping Tall People, we “tell it like it is” even when the truth hurts some of those we’re trying to help.) Also, a coach would be less hesitant to match his best against the other team’s best. That is, we’d get 40 minutes of Shaq vs. Camby or Amare Stoudemire vs. Tim Duncan, rather than mismatches concocted to avoid the catastrophe of having your best big man limited to 25 foul-plagued minutes.

NBA fans of yesteryear are mighty glad they got to see Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell square off for 48 minutes in dozens of important games, rather than see Wilt guarded by a committee of sacrificial lambs (drawn from the likes of Tommy Heinsohn, Wayne Embry, Don Nelson, John Thompson, Bailey Howell and Willie Naulls) so that Russell could avoid foul trouble. It’s great for fans and great for the game when the greats go toe-to-toe – and both men know in advance that, as long as they play clean, chances are good they’ll put in 40 or more free-and-easy minutes.

Quality centers must understand that they are all in the same boat and must work together. They must demand a system of rules that makes it as easy for them to average 36-42 minutes as it is for their shorter teammates.

Dennis Hans’s essays on basketball – including the styles, rhythms and fundamentals of free-throw shooting – have appeared online at the Sporting News and Slate. His writings on other topics have appeared in the New York Times, Washington Post and Miami Herald, among other outlets.

Tell us what you think about this column. E-mail us at HoopsHype@HoopsHype.com
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BlueSeats
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10/16/2006  9:31 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by nixluva:

Isiah is taking steps tho to HELP the players to achieve more. That's what ANY coach is supposed to do. He can't MAKE them do anything, but if he's good he can convince them to buy into what he's doing and from what I can see he's much better at doing that than LB was. This is all that really matters at this point. The next thing is how much of an effect this has on guys like Curry. Isiah can't play for him, but at least put the guy in a situation where he can step up and excel. This is the point that some of us are trying to make.

Isn't that stating the obvious?

However, Dolan and Isiah have flat out said it's Isiah's job to turn Eddy into an all-star. So they hold a slightly different perspective.


I don't get what the significant difference is in what I said and what Isiah is saying. I'm sure Isiah knows that it's a combination of what the coach does and the players desire that can make for a successful pairing. Isiah has said that in this offense he believes that Curry can be an All Star. That's the same as me saying that he's providing the circumstances or atmosphere that will allow Curry to shine. If he can get Curry to buy in and execute what he's teaching then this will make things EASIER for Curry as well as all the players. Isiah isn't saying that he can MAKE Curry do everything right, but he can have a big effect on Curry by doing the little things. Like being supportive. Letting the guy play thru problems and we already know Curry has voiced that desire. So far Curry has been pushing himself to do more from everything i've read. If he keeps doing that he may yet learn what the proper effort level should be. Sometimes people fool themselves into thinking they're doing the best they can. That's why personal trainers push a person and help them to go beyond what they might do by themselves. Isiah is trying to do that with Curry. He's doing more than just yelling at him and getting angry and sitting him. There's always more than one way to get a job done and perhaps Isiah may find a way to get it done with Curry.

Some coaches aren't very good at trying to reach players. Some coaches prefer that a player be self motivated and that he not have to deal with dragging a guy along and coaxing him. I think Isiah has the patience and temperment to work with players like Curry. Maybe Skiles and LB weren't the right kind of guys for Curry and perhaps the coach he had before them weren't good enough to get the job done either. We assume that coaches are somehow equal in ability across the board, but they're not. They all have strengths and weaknesses like anyone else. If a student doesn't understand a concept its not always because he too stupid to get it. SOmetimes the right teacher DOES MATTER. I hope that's the case with Curry and Isiah.

One is a broad, mild, idealistic, touchy-feely "pursuit of happiness" kind of thing with no metric for success. The other is a hardline directive with a clear, quantifiable measure of success.

The former can be spun and explained any which way; the other can be quantifiably ascertained as to whether it has or has not been accomplished.

In the real world, trying to, as you say, "provide the circumstances or atmosphere that will allow Curry to shine" is something that can be balanced against, or compromised by, trying to do what is best for the team. They may be the same thing, or they may not. However, a directive to make Curry an all-star could well cause a conflict of interest if the means to that end would compromise a larger success.

For example, if Isiah had a different directive it might give causation to a radically different approach. Imagine the difference in the approaches you might take if you were given the directive to make both Marbury and Francis all-stars again, vs trying to make Eddy an all-star. Different directives gives cause for different approaches. (I'm sure your mind will race to examples like Magic and Kareem, or Clyde and Reed, but let's be serious, we're not talking about those kind of guys here.)

Anyway, this is one huge tangent. Mostly I'm lost because your comments seemed to have come out of nowhere and were rather vague to boot. I think your point is that Curry might do better under Isiah than Larry. I think most people also think he might. But we've been thinking that every year he's been in the league, yet we're still talking about such basic things as his energy, focus and conditioning. When is he gonna get past that and add some new facets and dimensions to his game?
martin
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10/16/2006  9:36 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by nixluva:

Isiah is taking steps tho to HELP the players to achieve more. That's what ANY coach is supposed to do. He can't MAKE them do anything, but if he's good he can convince them to buy into what he's doing and from what I can see he's much better at doing that than LB was. This is all that really matters at this point. The next thing is how much of an effect this has on guys like Curry. Isiah can't play for him, but at least put the guy in a situation where he can step up and excel. This is the point that some of us are trying to make.

Isn't that stating the obvious?

However, Dolan and Isiah have flat out said it's Isiah's job to turn Eddy into an all-star. So they hold a slightly different perspective.


I don't get what the significant difference is in what I said and what Isiah is saying. I'm sure Isiah knows that it's a combination of what the coach does and the players desire that can make for a successful pairing. Isiah has said that in this offense he believes that Curry can be an All Star. That's the same as me saying that he's providing the circumstances or atmosphere that will allow Curry to shine. If he can get Curry to buy in and execute what he's teaching then this will make things EASIER for Curry as well as all the players. Isiah isn't saying that he can MAKE Curry do everything right, but he can have a big effect on Curry by doing the little things. Like being supportive. Letting the guy play thru problems and we already know Curry has voiced that desire. So far Curry has been pushing himself to do more from everything i've read. If he keeps doing that he may yet learn what the proper effort level should be. Sometimes people fool themselves into thinking they're doing the best they can. That's why personal trainers push a person and help them to go beyond what they might do by themselves. Isiah is trying to do that with Curry. He's doing more than just yelling at him and getting angry and sitting him. There's always more than one way to get a job done and perhaps Isiah may find a way to get it done with Curry.

Some coaches aren't very good at trying to reach players. Some coaches prefer that a player be self motivated and that he not have to deal with dragging a guy along and coaxing him. I think Isiah has the patience and temperment to work with players like Curry. Maybe Skiles and LB weren't the right kind of guys for Curry and perhaps the coach he had before them weren't good enough to get the job done either. We assume that coaches are somehow equal in ability across the board, but they're not. They all have strengths and weaknesses like anyone else. If a student doesn't understand a concept its not always because he too stupid to get it. SOmetimes the right teacher DOES MATTER. I hope that's the case with Curry and Isiah.

One is a broad, mild, idealistic, touchy-feely "pursuit of happiness" kind of thing with no metric for success. The other is a hardline directive with a clear, quantifiable measure of success.

The former can be spun and explained any which way; the other can be quantifiably ascertained as to whether it has or has not been accomplished.

In the real world, trying to, as you say, "provide the circumstances or atmosphere that will allow Curry to shine" is something that can be balanced against, or compromised by, trying to do what is best for the team. They may be the same thing, or they may not. However, a directive to make Curry an all-star could well cause a conflict of interest if the means to that end would compromise a larger success.

For example, if Isiah had a different directive it might give causation to a radically different approach. Imagine the difference in the approaches you might take if you were given the directive to make both Marbury and Francis all-stars again, vs trying to make Eddy an all-star. Different directives gives cause for different approaches. (I'm sure your mind will race to examples like Magic and Kareem, or Clyde and Reed, but let's be serious, we're not talking about those kind of guys here.)

Anyway, this is one huge tangent. Mostly I'm lost because your comments seemed to have come out of nowhere and were rather vague to boot. I think your point is that Curry might do better under Isiah than Larry. I think most people also think he might. But we've been thinking that every year he's been in the league, yet we're still talking about such basic things as his energy, focus and conditioning. When is he gonna get past that and add some new facets and dimensions to his game?

could you dumb down your posts? I can't tell if you are a homer or a hater. I have to use my brain to figure out your point.
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BlueSeats
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10/16/2006  9:42 PM
Posted by martin:

could you dumb down your posts? I can't tell if you are a homer or a hater. I have to use my brain to figure out your point.

that's because it's little more than a poorly worded piece of crap designed to confuse 'luva as much as he confused me.

nixluva
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10/16/2006  9:59 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by martin:

could you dumb down your posts? I can't tell if you are a homer or a hater. I have to use my brain to figure out your point.

that's because it's little more than a poorly worded piece of crap designed to confuse 'luva as much as he confused me.

I find nothing humorous in your post. In fact it's extremely annoying. Do you have an actual position to take in this or are you just here to critique other peoples posts? I think my point was clear enough. Isiah is actually making an honest effort to help Curry to have success. Some coaches say that they want that, but lack the patience and creativeness to actually do something about it. So they resort to yelling and insulting the player rather than actually trying to solve the problem. It's clear to me that Isiah is taking an active role in trying to get the most out of Curry. He's challenging him in ways that won't rob him of his dignity or embarrass him needlessly. Now there may be a time and place where using harsh tactics are needed and i'm sure Isiah will use that time appropriately, but it can't be the only way you deal with a player.

Blueseats you seem to be an intelligent person, If you feel this approach is garbage, how would you suggest Isiah approach helping Curry?

BlueSeats
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10/16/2006  10:46 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by martin:

could you dumb down your posts? I can't tell if you are a homer or a hater. I have to use my brain to figure out your point.

that's because it's little more than a poorly worded piece of crap designed to confuse 'luva as much as he confused me.

I find nothing humorous in your post. In fact it's extremely annoying.


First off, relax. while I was being somewhat obnoxious I was mostly attempting to be a bit self-deprecating as mine wasn't all that well written or clear of a post.
I think my point was clear enough.

to be honest with you it came across as a non sequitur to me. You quoted no one and basically just said all isiah can do is try to help, not make him do something. I just don't get what inspired you to state the obvious.
Isiah is actually making an honest effort to help Curry to have success. Some coaches say that they want that, but lack the patience and creativeness to actually do something about it. So they resort to yelling and insulting the player rather than actually trying to solve the problem. It's clear to me that Isiah is taking an active role in trying to get the most out of Curry. He's challenging him in ways that won't rob him of his dignity or embarrass him needlessly. Now there may be a time and place where using harsh tactics are needed and i'm sure Isiah will use that time appropriately, but it can't be the only way you deal with a player.

That's fine, I think we all expect that isiah will want the best for Curry as that is also what's best for him. he paid a steep price for Curry and Marbury and he's staken not just his credibility as a Gm on them but also as a mentor and developer of talent.

But others have also had a lot at stake in Eddy and faired no better. Some have been sweet talkers, some harsh. Do we really know the secret to tapping Eddy's potential? His best season was the one with the heart problem. It was under a harsh talker in Skiles.

We know Eddy is a talented guy, but has he really gotten better as time's gone on? I keep seeing one step forward two steps back.
Blueseats you seem to be an intelligent person, If you feel this approach is garbage, how would you suggest Isiah approach helping Curry?

Where did "garbage" come from?

I have no idea how to unlock Eddy's potential. What I don't like is the sense that Isiah may give Eddy minutes as much to bolster his statistics, as a means to justify the trade, rather than give judicious minutes and perhaps pick up a platoon defender, which might be a better program for the team as a whole.

See, a lot of Isiah's methods have been questionable/speculative (wrong coaches who he then undermines, questionable character players, etc) that things have gotten so bad that now, in the owners words, he's being made to lie in the bed he's made. He has so many things he needs to simultaneously justify as a coach, GM, and mentor that I think it might just raise conflicts of interests.

But as always I think you go to some extended means to validate your feelings that this team will have a better season then they did under larry. I think they will too, but it doesn't take a world of minutia to realize why. It wont be because the offense will feature cutting guards, or frye in the high post, or Eddy getting more minutes, consistent rotations, etc. All that will come into play but mostly it will be because the leadership of this team as defined by Marbury and Isiah himself, will not be in opposition to him throughout. All the rest matters, but it is so secondary to the great divide between the ranks we had last year.

To some that's great news. Bad Larry out + nice Isiah in = problem solved. Maybe. But if something should happen to Isiah such that isiah cannot continue as coach it may also mean we're back in no man's landing trying one coach after another until we find one who's just right.

So how is all that relevant to Curry? there are guys you don't have to worry about WRT who's coach: Crawford, Jeffries, Lee to name a few. Then there are guys like marbury and Curry who seem like they may be very coach dependent. Those kind worry me and those are the guys that Isiah has given up the most for and largely hitched our wagon to.

[Edited by - blueseats on 10-16-2006 10:49 PM]
nyk4ever
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10/16/2006  11:33 PM
If, Should, Could, Might, Someday, Hope.

These are all words commonly associated with Eddy Curry for his weight, conditioning, and foul problems. I'm tired of seeing and hearing excuses for Curry. Show up in gameshape and learn how to stop committing offensive fouls.

Blue, I think if you cut down your posts, maybe limiting them to about 75-100 words that things could be understood better. Although some have a idea in their head how there is no doubt that LB was the anti-christ and had it out for Curry and now that he's gone, nothing can stop Isiah from reaching Curry. I mean don't go changing their mind by presenting factual evidence and quotes!


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nixluva
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10/16/2006  11:37 PM
I love how you wrote all of that and still managed to say NOTHING of real significance with regard to the point of this thread. With regard to how you actually responded to my question, I think you oversimplied what Isiah is doing by making it sound like he's just sweet talking Curry and that's NOT what Isiah is really doing. That's fine if you think it makes your point sound more valid, but it's far from the truth. Making a guy play thru fatigue isn't just sweet talking the guy. Isiah is addressing the Curry issue from different angles and I think he's put a LOT of thought into it. That may not guarantee results but I think it's better than what I saw last year.

If I may critique your posts, as you did mine, I find your smug attitude and condescending tone in your last couple of posts to be very rude and I still haven't seen you make a real substantive point in regards to this thread in any of these recent posts. Try sticking to the subject matter and stop trying to be so clever.
NEWSDAY: Isiah's got the recipe to get Curry in shape

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