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Good Francis article
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JohnWallace44
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9/6/2006  10:37 PM
Marbs and Francis can coexist if the Knicks make a game plan out of drawing fouls with those two, nate, craw and curry.
There were a couple of games last year where all the knicks did for a couple quarters was drive and draw fouls. No one can really stay in front of those guys, so... why not?

By the second half you would have Frye, Lee and Jeffries playing against practice players.

Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
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nixluva
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9/6/2006  10:47 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Marbs and Francis can coexist if the Knicks make a game plan out of drawing fouls with those two, nate, craw and curry.
There were a couple of games last year where all the knicks did for a couple quarters was drive and draw fouls. No one can really stay in front of those guys, so... why not?

By the second half you would have Frye, Lee and Jeffries playing against practice players.

What you're saying is basically what Isiah's offense is designed to do! :) Isiah's not stupid, he knows his guards are practically unstoppable. What he's doing is giving them an offense that is designed for maximum floor spacing and using screens, that will make it even easier for our guards to attack the basket.

joec32033
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9/6/2006  11:43 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Marbs and Francis can coexist if the Knicks make a game plan out of drawing fouls with those two, nate, craw and curry.
There were a couple of games last year where all the knicks did for a couple quarters was drive and draw fouls. No one can really stay in front of those guys, so... why not?

By the second half you would have Frye, Lee and Jeffries playing against practice players.

What you're saying is basically what Isiah's offense is designed to do! :) Isiah's not stupid, he knows his guards are practically unstoppable. What he's doing is giving them an offense that is designed for maximum floor spacing and using screens, that will make it even easier for our guards to attack the basket.

So now Zeke's offense is a isolation type of offense where it is predicated on guys driving and getting fouled? As opposed to the hybrid Triangle/Motion/PHX suns style/Princeton style team ball that you touted as "the perfect offense" a couple months ago?

No wonder it's the perfect offense, it changes before we have a chance to see what it actually is and it only really requires shoot first PG's to be successful!
~You can't run from who you are.~
nykshaknbake
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9/7/2006  12:19 AM
I don't think this is really a very intellectually honest analysis because you don't even mention Frye's injury and decreased playing time when they are factors. Anybody can spin numbers selectively to say what they want.

ANd basically you are syaing b/c one players started out well and then did poorly that it isn't encouraging when a player starts well. Why didn't you do a breakdown comparing the player who shoots at the average and players who shoot above it like Lee did their rookie year and plot those out?
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by nixluva:

How can you say that Lee didn't show any development. He looked awful shooting from the floor at first, but he kept working on it and was actually pretty good at the end of the year. Its not like he didn't put in any effort. So far this year it looks like he's improved from the FT line and his shot looks altogether much smoother.

I'm less convinced than you. Did you watch summer league last year? I did and both Frye and lee were already winning over fans way back then, before the season started. I'm not sure they made such great gains since.

As for lee's shot, I felt the same way with Ariza over his first season. I felt like he gained confidence in his shot from beginning to end, but less convinced it stuck by the start of his second season. Stats bear this out:

04-05 in NY Trevor shot .442.
05-06 in NY Trevor shot .418
05-06 in Orlando Trevor shot .400

Similarly, here are Lee's percentages month by month:
.483
.429
.683
.619
.585
.612

Other than a slow start, probably attributable to rookie jitters, is that really the arc of a sustained progression? We really don't know yet, do we?


Posted by nixluva:
Frye showed me a lot. He wasn't even supposed to be much of anything according to many pundits, but he was the 2nd best rookie for much of the year despite all the turmoil on the team. I really hate to include these guys in any argument about showing something, since the really just got started. Hopefully this year they'll show more growth.

Frye earned the potential ROY accolades in the first third of the season. He was surprising people then; less so later in the season.

Again, lets look at his FG% month by month:
.503
.526
.462
.426
.424

Is that a sustained arc of progress?

You seem to be talking about isiah's draft ability, while I am talking about an arc of improvement across the season, or from one season to the next.

We MAY see an improvement from last season to this. One absolutely SHOULD expect almost automatic improvement over a player's first three to five years in the league. Such is the normal developmental curve as a player's body matures, and he learns the NBA game. It's the ramp up to his peak productivity years.

When you don't see that ramp up is when you become concerned (TT, Eddy Curry, Steve Francis, Jerome James, even Marbury).

So a sustained upward climb in productivity and/or leadership is one of the things I'll be looking for. But I'd hardly declare it a fait accompli at this point.

BlueSeats
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9/7/2006  12:27 AM
Posted by nykshaknbake:

I don't think this is really a very intellectually honest analysis because you don't even mention Frye's injury and decreased playing time when they are factors.

correct me if I'm wrong, but when frye got injured he sat. I don't see how it affected his shooting for three months.
Anybody can spin numbers selectively to say what they want.

I'm not spinning numbers. they are simply month by month shooting percentages, but you're welcome to spin them as you please.
ANd basically you are syaing b/c one players started out well and then did poorly that it isn't encouraging when a player starts well.

I am?
Why didn't you do a breakdown comparing the player who shoots at the average and players who shoot above it like Lee did their rookie year and plot those out?

Because we were talking about Frye and Lee. And what "average" are you even talking about?

Don't make me do all the work. If you think you've got something worth showing us why don't you do it?
oohah
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9/7/2006  12:29 AM
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Marbs and Francis can coexist if the Knicks make a game plan out of drawing fouls with those two, nate, craw and curry.
There were a couple of games last year where all the knicks did for a couple quarters was drive and draw fouls. No one can really stay in front of those guys, so... why not?

By the second half you would have Frye, Lee and Jeffries playing against practice players.

What you're saying is basically what Isiah's offense is designed to do! :) Isiah's not stupid, he knows his guards are practically unstoppable. What he's doing is giving them an offense that is designed for maximum floor spacing and using screens, that will make it even easier for our guards to attack the basket.

So now Zeke's offense is a isolation type of offense where it is predicated on guys driving and getting fouled? As opposed to the hybrid Triangle/Motion/PHX suns style/Princeton style team ball that you touted as "the perfect offense" a couple months ago?

No wonder it's the perfect offense, it changes before we have a chance to see what it actually is and it only really requires shoot first PG's to be successful!

Joe my Man!

How ya been?

I have a couple of questions for you:

What specifically do you expect out of the Knicks, in terms of player/team performance and win total?

What would you find to be an acceptable performance, in terms of player/team performance and win total?

What would you find to be a performance that makes you happy, in terms of player/team performance and win total?

And please, get down to the details of what you expect, what you would satisfy you, and what would make you happy.

Hangeth Thy Ass out there!



oohah



Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
nixluva
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9/7/2006  1:23 AM
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Marbs and Francis can coexist if the Knicks make a game plan out of drawing fouls with those two, nate, craw and curry.
There were a couple of games last year where all the knicks did for a couple quarters was drive and draw fouls. No one can really stay in front of those guys, so... why not?

By the second half you would have Frye, Lee and Jeffries playing against practice players.

What you're saying is basically what Isiah's offense is designed to do! :) Isiah's not stupid, he knows his guards are practically unstoppable. What he's doing is giving them an offense that is designed for maximum floor spacing and using screens, that will make it even easier for our guards to attack the basket.

So now Zeke's offense is a isolation type of offense where it is predicated on guys driving and getting fouled? As opposed to the hybrid Triangle/Motion/PHX suns style/Princeton style team ball that you touted as "the perfect offense" a couple months ago?

No wonder it's the perfect offense, it changes before we have a chance to see what it actually is and it only really requires shoot first PG's to be successful!

What the HECK are you talking about? WHo said anything about this being an Iso offense? Can you even READ? Where did I say anything that suggested an Iso type offense?

We led the league in drawing fouls last year and I think we'll do it again. Especially in an offense that constantly attacks. The use of cuts and screens is in no way an iso type offense. Great floor spacing is a key component of these offenses and it has nothing to do with trying to run simple iso's. I think if you read my posts before you know that I understand these offenses well enough, so don't try to twist what i'm saying.



martin
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9/7/2006  1:45 AM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Marbs and Francis can coexist if the Knicks make a game plan out of drawing fouls with those two, nate, craw and curry.
There were a couple of games last year where all the knicks did for a couple quarters was drive and draw fouls. No one can really stay in front of those guys, so... why not?

By the second half you would have Frye, Lee and Jeffries playing against practice players.

What you're saying is basically what Isiah's offense is designed to do! :) Isiah's not stupid, he knows his guards are practically unstoppable. What he's doing is giving them an offense that is designed for maximum floor spacing and using screens, that will make it even easier for our guards to attack the basket.

So now Zeke's offense is a isolation type of offense where it is predicated on guys driving and getting fouled? As opposed to the hybrid Triangle/Motion/PHX suns style/Princeton style team ball that you touted as "the perfect offense" a couple months ago?

No wonder it's the perfect offense, it changes before we have a chance to see what it actually is and it only really requires shoot first PG's to be successful!

Joe my Man!

How ya been?

I have a couple of questions for you:

What specifically do you expect out of the Knicks, in terms of player/team performance and win total?

What would you find to be an acceptable performance, in terms of player/team performance and win total?

What would you find to be a performance that makes you happy, in terms of player/team performance and win total?

And please, get down to the details of what you expect, what you would satisfy you, and what would make you happy.

Hangeth Thy Ass out there!



oohah

I'm diggin' the pics.
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joec32033
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9/7/2006  7:50 AM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Marbs and Francis can coexist if the Knicks make a game plan out of drawing fouls with those two, nate, craw and curry.
There were a couple of games last year where all the knicks did for a couple quarters was drive and draw fouls. No one can really stay in front of those guys, so... why not?

By the second half you would have Frye, Lee and Jeffries playing against practice players.

What you're saying is basically what Isiah's offense is designed to do! :) Isiah's not stupid, he knows his guards are practically unstoppable. What he's doing is giving them an offense that is designed for maximum floor spacing and using screens, that will make it even easier for our guards to attack the basket.

So now Zeke's offense is a isolation type of offense where it is predicated on guys driving and getting fouled? As opposed to the hybrid Triangle/Motion/PHX suns style/Princeton style team ball that you touted as "the perfect offense" a couple months ago?

No wonder it's the perfect offense, it changes before we have a chance to see what it actually is and it only really requires shoot first PG's to be successful!

Joe my Man!

How ya been?

I have a couple of questions for you:

What specifically do you expect out of the Knicks, in terms of player/team performance and win total?

What would you find to be an acceptable performance, in terms of player/team performance and win total?

What would you find to be a performance that makes you happy, in terms of player/team performance and win total?

And please, get down to the details of what you expect, what you would satisfy you, and what would make you happy.

Hangeth Thy Ass out there!



oohah

Been good my daughter's running my ass into the ground, but been doing well. Got a second daughter due in Dec so no I am waiting on that one. Can't wait to get all this estrogen in one house....woohoo. How about yourself?

I agree whith what Briggs said in another thread another thread. We have 50 win talent. Right now my ideal season is 45 wins and a trip to the semis. My expectation is somewhere aroune 35-38 wins.

As for player expectations, as a group if they give me their hearts and leave them on the floor, they can have mine. Individually there are only certain guys I really have meaningful expectations for-

Marbury-Shut up and lead. Be the leader you have the talent to be. You're the PG, the floor general, you have the reigns-don't waste it.

Frye-Learn to rebound and defend. Don't fall into the injury waiting to happen category(I was nervous in SL), you shouldn't have said anything about LB-you came across as a spoiled brat-earn my respect back.

Nate-Shut-up and play. You also ain't earned nothing yet. Just because you have the talet to start(I think he has the talent to be better than JCraw is now-Maybe become our Ben Gordon) does not mean you should be.

Francis-Please at least play up to what you used to be on a bad day.

Curry-Prove us wrong-that you are not a heart attack waiting to happen. Show some desire.

I speak my expectations in generalities, because generally, specifics suck, specifically trying to predict specifics of guys who played so bad last year.

Acceptable to me is 40+ wins and just showing some heart and not acting like spoiled babies. They made me set my bar pretty low, huh?


~You can't run from who you are.~
joec32033
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9/7/2006  8:20 AM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Marbs and Francis can coexist if the Knicks make a game plan out of drawing fouls with those two, nate, craw and curry.
There were a couple of games last year where all the knicks did for a couple quarters was drive and draw fouls. No one can really stay in front of those guys, so... why not?

By the second half you would have Frye, Lee and Jeffries playing against practice players.

What you're saying is basically what Isiah's offense is designed to do! :) Isiah's not stupid, he knows his guards are practically unstoppable. What he's doing is giving them an offense that is designed for maximum floor spacing and using screens, that will make it even easier for our guards to attack the basket.

So now Zeke's offense is a isolation type of offense where it is predicated on guys driving and getting fouled? As opposed to the hybrid Triangle/Motion/PHX suns style/Princeton style team ball that you touted as "the perfect offense" a couple months ago?

No wonder it's the perfect offense, it changes before we have a chance to see what it actually is and it only really requires shoot first PG's to be successful!

What the HECK are you talking about? WHo said anything about this being an Iso offense? Can you even READ? Where did I say anything that suggested an Iso type offense?

We led the league in drawing fouls last year and I think we'll do it again. Especially in an offense that constantly attacks. The use of cuts and screens is in no way an iso type offense. Great floor spacing is a key component of these offenses and it has nothing to do with trying to run simple iso's. I think if you read my posts before you know that I understand these offenses well enough, so don't try to twist what i'm saying.

The first question is pretty stupid, I obviously don't have my computer reading all these posts to me.

The second one is a little better. In order for Steph or Francis to drive and go to the hole is, they have to have the ball to break their man down. Steve and Francis are almost the same player in that regard. They are at their best one on one taking their man to the hole. Screens are best used for mid range/long range jumpers more than driving because when you screen and come out to get the ball, there are still two defenders between you and the basket (in addition to your teammate). Not the ideal situation to drive.

Now you can say that they can cut without the ball and get the pass. My response-we don't have the passers to do that if you are having Steph and Francis (our 2 best passers) cutting to the hoop. Both are more effective using their perimeter game to set up their drives. Both are also only 6-3 and 30 years old. Steph has ankle problems. Stevie is still relatively healthy(I think). But if the whole plan is for them to drive and get fouled, that is going to take a hell of a toll on them this season, don't you think?
~You can't run from who you are.~
Bippity10
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9/7/2006  9:57 AM
Anyone besides me notice that pretty much everyone on this board has the exact same prediction and expectations about the season.

I'll sum it up for everyone.

Talent level: 45-50 wins
Hopes:42-45 wins
Expecting-35-39 wins
Lowest Standard: Play as a team, play defense and hustle.

We are generally all on the same page, I just think there are only about 1 or 2 people that see through the name calling and realize it.
I just hope that people will like me
Bippity10
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9/7/2006  10:00 AM
I think the only difference between people is that some on the board feel that there is a possibility that this team could collapse like they did last year and others don't think that is a possibility. How are we going to do "I told you so's" this year if everyone feels the same way. Someone really hang your asse out there and say we are going to win 50, or win 20.
I just hope that people will like me
martin
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9/7/2006  10:11 AM
I think there is an outside chance to hit 40-42 wins IF the offense is clicking on all cylinders and no one is hurt. The potential is there for Marbury/Francis to finally step up in a way that 20/8 can only run it. Those two would obviously dominate the ball (in a way that Isiah planned it with cutting and stabbing at the basket) but I think that would diminish the long-term effectiviness of someone like Curry. However, I would say that if Franbury did step up the offensive output, it would also ease the burden of guys like Curry and Frye in the short term.

The East is full of weak teams in which a high powered offense can dominitate on any given night and force the opposing team to play catchup and play a style that they may not be accustomed to. Run, run, run and move, move, move. Is this good for team development or playoff development? I think no.

The defensive side of things - and namely improvement in rebounding, rotations, getting back on D, weak side D and perimeter feet-movement - will dictate to me how development of the team is going.

My ass is still not out there but you'all get a glimpse of some cheek.
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Bippity10
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9/7/2006  10:23 AM
I think I did see some cheek.
I just hope that people will like me
Bippity10
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9/7/2006  10:24 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Bippity10:
I would shout plagiarism but nobody would beleive me because you write better. But this is exactly to a tee how I feel. I would not change one word. Except I might dumb down the english a little bit.

I don't want us to look like gay lovers or anything, but yes, I agree with you as much as you agree with me.

It's funny because you are one of the people that I have had the fiercest arguments with. Can't say that either of us don't at least try to be fair and objective.

On a side note: this is the last time I agree with you about anything.
I just hope that people will like me
nixluva
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9/7/2006  10:47 AM
Posted by martin:

I think there is an outside chance to hit 40-42 wins IF the offense is clicking on all cylinders and no one is hurt. The potential is there for Marbury/Francis to finally step up in a way that 20/8 can only run it. Those two would obviously dominate the ball (in a way that Isiah planned it with cutting and stabbing at the basket) but I think that would diminish the long-term effectiviness of someone like Curry. However, I would say that if Franbury did step up the offensive output, it would also ease the burden of guys like Curry and Frye in the short term.

The East is full of weak teams in which a high powered offense can dominitate on any given night and force the opposing team to play catchup and play a style that they may not be accustomed to. Run, run, run and move, move, move. Is this good for team development or playoff development? I think no.

The defensive side of things - and namely improvement in rebounding, rotations, getting back on D, weak side D and perimeter feet-movement - will dictate to me how development of the team is going.

My ass is still not out there but you'all get a glimpse of some cheek.

You make some good points. I think in the end like Bip said, we all are pretty close on what we think the max for this team is and even the more realistic expectations. I also agree that I differ in the prospect of this team collapsing. I don't see it happening, but that's just my opinion.

I think that the offensive side of the ball will be there and get better as the year goes along and they get more comfortable with the system. On the other end of the court, its really gonna be about effort and chemistry. The effort should be there right away, with no excuses. I expect that it will take some time to develop good defensive chemistry tho. There should be no way that we allow 102 ppg again this year. If we could get that down to about 95 to 96 ppg that would be good for this team. One thing that will help that is to lower our TO rate. We had a horrendous avg and that leads to a lot of fastbreaks. This is why I tend to harp on the offense so much. Our D wasn't very good, but what made it worse, was our total failure to be efficient on offense. When you're missing shots or just plain turning it over, that puts your D in a bad position. It also had an effect on our players mentality. They didn't go as hard on D when the offense was bad. That's not a good thing, but understandable when it comes to a team that has mostly offensive minded players. They tend to play harder on D when they're going good offensively. That's a bad character trait, but its who they are.

As far as the playoffs go and this team developing into a title contender one day, its a process. This group has to get there first and then we can deal with how they do once they're in it. We almost have to play at a faster pace. That doesn't have to mean playing out of control, just with more of a push to get up court and with higher energy in our sets.
BlueSeats
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9/7/2006  10:57 AM
Posted by nixluva:
We almost have to play at a faster pace. That doesn't have to mean playing out of control, just with more of a push to get up court and with higher energy in our sets.

We certainly need to play with more energy and effort than last year, but why faster?

Marbury's best work has come in a half court pick & roll offense. Frye seems like an able cohort for the P&R. Then you have Curry in the low post, and Q or crawford as a penetrating shooting guard.

Sure we could stand a better perimeter shooter, but that's true in whatever system we run.

Or is it not because we are any better suited to an uptempo offense but because our D will be so bad we have to try to outscore our opponent? Well, speed only helps you outscore your opponent if it increases your efficiency, but if it doesn't your just giving your opponent more opportunities to outscore you.

Not sure we have the quickest thinkers on the lot. Not sure a basic tried and true offense doesn't better serve our key players. But I guess time will tell.

Allanfan20
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9/7/2006  12:22 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

I think the only difference between people is that some on the board feel that there is a possibility that this team could collapse like they did last year and others don't think that is a possibility. How are we going to do "I told you so's" this year if everyone feels the same way. Someone really hang your asse out there and say we are going to win 50, or win 20.

Bip, I think either is possible. But I do believe there's a higher chance we reach 20 than 50 but I think I'll remain the only poster on the board who DOESN'T make a prediction.

“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
EnySpree
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9/7/2006  1:08 PM
I think nixluva had the best take on the knick actual offense. None of are actually talking how the real offense works and how it will fit the players. Most of you guys like to fry the individual players saying what they need to do individually. They all have to step up but their has to be a plan of attack for the guys to really step into a role and do what they are capable of.

Just the summer league alone was an eye opener to what the verbal hype is about. All the no name guys and the knicks 5 draft picks made it look fun and easy.

In summer league the strategy was play team defense and on the turnover or rebound start the fast break everytime. Guys were taking off down court even off the inbounds pass. That's not individual. That's what isiah is telling these guys to do. Its their strategy. When the break wasn't their they went right into their offense. Guys imediately got into their cuts, picks and theire was constant movement. Guys were getting lay-ups and jumpshots. Passing was a given cuz guys were popping open all the time.

Yeah that was summer league but a lot of guys arguments is about last year. The offense is for real and I think the vets will love it. It truly is geared for the guards and the natural ability of the players. It will be a very interesting training camp. I can't wait till pre-season so we can see this all play out.
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BlueSeats
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9/7/2006  1:16 PM
Eny, we saw the same passing and running from the '05 summer league squad (4-1 record under Herb), so it's not unique to Isiah's offense.

Nixluva keeps talking about how this offense is perfect for Steph and Francis, but the triangle is never perfect for ball dominating scoring PGs. Witness Payton in LA.

This offense may be so "perfect" for these two PGs that they fight for the right to play SG.

Starbury has shoes to sell, I really don't see him wanting to play PG only to have Jeffries doing the brunt of the ball distribution and Francis the brunt of the scoring. Steph has yet to demonstrate himself as a good SG, and Francis has yet to establish himself as a good floor leader. So how is that perfect?

I guess if we do better this year than last people will claim it's because of isiah's great offense, and I guess that's okay. But the offense Brown's was possibly most analogous with was Red Holtzman's "hit the open man", and "make the pass that leads to the pass that leads to the bucket" approach, which won us two championships.


We were 16-13 under Lenny with Steph walking the ball up, pounding around on the perimeter, playing hot potato with Crawford, and playing Pick-N-Pop all day with KT. 'm told isiah is a much better coach, this is a much better roster, and this is the perfect system, so why are we hoping for less than or equal to Lenny?

It's not about the systems, it's about the execution.





[Edited by - blueSeats on 09-07-2006 1:30 PM]
Good Francis article

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