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Team USA loses to Greece. No more gold!
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gunsnewing
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9/1/2006  4:56 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

But I do agree that the NBA hands the kesy to guys that haven't proven things yet. The face of the NBA should be Tim Duncan. It's not.


yeah man its sick. If these guys were taught the right way with their potential they would be incredible. The NBA definitely needs to think about that. Let these guys earn it first. Then we won't have to worry about being embarrassed by teams who have no business beating us no matter how much the international game has improved

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 09-01-2006 4:57 PM]
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gunsnewing
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9/1/2006  5:03 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

But I do agree that the NBA hands the kesy to guys that haven't proven things yet. The face of the NBA should be Tim Duncan. It's not.


kids have always idolized guards more so the my guy would be Wade. I really admire Wade because he wasn't handed anything. He flew under lebron & melo's shadow and became a star the traditional way. If only the nba would realize that. Then again they have to market these guys in order to make money.
tomverve
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9/1/2006  9:50 PM
Great post by Dan Rosenbaum from the APBRmetric board about this, pasted below. In a nutshell, offense is NOT the problem whatsoever-- the offense was very good, it's just that the defense was drop-dead awful. Rosenbaum thinks we couldn't guard the pick and roll because coach K committed to a defensive style that relies too much on trying to force turnovers and doesn't feature enough help defense concepts. Chris Sheridan has been saying the same thing on ESPN for a while now.

Forget about blaming the loss on a deficiency in the offense, whether you think it's not enough shooting or too much one-on-one play. Maybe both of those areas could use improvement, but we're talking about the difference between "great" and "perfect." We don't really need to upgrade the offense from great to perfect, we need to upgrade the defense from putrid to at least acceptable levels. And it's not so much about one-on-one D as it is about play help D as a team.
According to my calculations, Team USA had an offensive efficiency of 128.1 points per 100 possessions in the loss against Greece. To put that into perspective, the difference between 128.1 and the best team in the NBA last season (Phoenix at 114.1) was larger than the difference between the best team in the NBA and the worst (Portland at 103.3). So, according to NBA standards, Team USA had a phenomenal offensive game.

But if you go to the polling at ESPN.com, most respondents to a poll are blaming "poor outside shooting" as the #1 reason Team USA lost. Of course, Team USA could have shot better from the three-point line, but with their off the charts offensive efficiency, it seems remarkable that most people are pointing to the offense as the excuse for the loss.

To further drive home this point, 62.2% of the respondents say that Michael Redd or another outside shooter would have made the difference in this game. Again that is remarkable.

Team USA lost this game because it could not defend Greece. Plain and simple. Our defensive efficiency was 136.2 points per 100 possessions. Greece did shoot the ball pretty well, but that was not the main story here. Greece got a lot of layups, mismatches, and wide open looks at threes. And they converted on those high percentage opportunities.

And this is not a matter of teams playing more efficient offense in international basketball. Spain and Argentina averaged 101 points per 100 possessions in their semi-final match-up, which is lower than that of any NBA team.

This was not a matter of Team USA not playing hard or even smart on defense. Or "a lack of fundamentals." To me it looked like Team USA was executing the defensive game plan, but the defensive game plan had no answer for the pick and roll. And with Team USA forcing just 4 steals for the whole game, the pressure defense that bothered lesser teams had no positive effect. What happened was that the pressure defense led to Team USA defending the pick and roll with no help defense and I just don't think there is much of a track record of that working well against skilled professionals.

Playing the type of defense that Team USA plays, it can be OK if they are able to force 10 or more steals a game like they did in the earlier contests. But against better teams where it is hard to force so many steals, this defensive strategy of pressuring the ball and playing the passing lanes makes it impossible for even good athletes like those on Team USA to play effective defense.

Remember at the end of the day, if Team USA was able to play defense at the level of the worst defensive team in the NBA last season - Seattle at 116.5 points per 100 possessions - we win this game by almost 10 points.

But before I close, I should add that it is possible that the type of defense that Coach K put in may be the best we can do in the short period of time we have to put together a team. Putting in a San Antonio-type keep-players-out-of-the-middle-and-off-the-three-point-line defense takes a lot of time, and maybe we don't have the time to do that on Team USA. Playing that type of defense may help us with the good teams, but against the lesser teams it may open us up to embarrassing defeats while we are still working out the kinks. There are a lot of tough choices to make - choices that need to be made by folks who know a helluva lot more about basketball than I do.
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DarkKnicks
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9/2/2006  8:23 AM
Well done. At least you got Bronze and have a pretty good last game.
Marv
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9/2/2006  9:16 AM
Americans claim third place with victory over Argentina


Sep. 2, 2006
CBS SportsLine.com wire reports


SAITAMA, Japan -- Dwyane Wade made sure the United States didn't leave the FIBA World Championship empty-handed.
Wade scored 18 of his 32 points in the fourth quarter, helping the Americans pull away for a 96-81 victory over Argentina on Saturday night in the bronze medal game.

LeBron James added 20 points for the U.S., which could only match the bronze it won two years ago in Athens. This victory gave the Americans some measure of revenge from that disappointment, coming against the team that had beaten them in the semifinals two years ago.

In a spectacular performance similar to those he delivered while winning MVP honors at the NBA Finals, Wade was 10-of-14 from the field and made all three 3-point attempts -- he was 2-of-15 behind the arc coming into game. He fell three points shy of the American record Carmelo Anthony set earlier in the tournament.

Argentina (7-2) was trying for its third straight medal in a major event after winning silver in the 2002 world championship and gold two years ago in Athens -- with victories over the U.S. during both.

But the Argentineans couldn't overcome foul trouble to Manu Ginobili, Fabricio Oberto and Luis Scola, the mainstays of those teams. All three spent significant time on the bench in the second half.

AP NEWS
The Associated Press News Service

Copyright 2005-2006, The Associated Press, All Rights Reserved
BRIGGS
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9/2/2006  10:39 AM
Overall a good showing by the USA. Any team can be beaten by incredible shooting. We were +12 or 13 on Greece before the wheels fell off to better team play and red-hot shooting. I think with the addition of Oden[probably for chris bosh who was awful] a shooter--i would say Redd at this point because Allen is getting up there in age- and the PG's Hinrich and Paul getting better--I think it will be a much better team. One of the downfalls of team usa over the last several years is how we play the game strategically. I think they can regroup and see the failure of two periods of bad basketball. Cohesion determination[both strategic and mental} and a few tweaks in personnel should put us over the top. We fell down the hill and we are climbing back up.
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Silverfuel
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9/2/2006  11:20 AM
I think tomverve's post hits on everything. We dont need more or different offensive players. We need a better fusion of defense with the offense. Maybe someone like an Artest, Prince at SF and a Ben Wallace or something.
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bigbeast
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9/2/2006  11:48 AM
Artes would be a great addition but for PR reasons, I don't see it. I mentioned Prince would be a good addition in another thread.

A post presence who could block shots and score in the post is needed. I don't know if Oden will be ready by '08. Coach K has them over playing the passing lanes like they do at Duke and this leads to a lot of penetration. We need someone back there who can block or change shots. An agile bigman who can also defend on the perimeter would be nice.

I disagree with Briggs. Bosh was spotty but not awful. Jamison would be the first to get cut.
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
gunsnewing
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9/2/2006  11:52 AM
I still think what you need is for the core players like lebron & melo to play defense because they are the guys who are going to be in the game when it matters. It could be coach K's ****ty defensive strategy of playing for steals instead of help defense like that article suggests
wsdm
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9/2/2006  12:17 PM
I tend to agree with Briggs. I think the team made a lot of progress from 2004. This team had two bad quarters. The 2004 team lost three games! I'm not sure if it's gonna work with Melo, Wade, and 'Bron all on the same team, though. It's too many scorers, especially if you're looking to add Redd and/or Allen.
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BoDid
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9/2/2006  12:42 PM
I caught the game against Greece live.
The defense was the main problem. The coaching staff didn't adjust. Pressure defense and gambling for steals didn't work aginst Greece. The US underestimated the poise and ability of the Greek guards. Why not switch up into a zone, or play more straight up without ball-hawking? Show some different looks. Use your bigs.

I didn't understand why Dwight Howard didn't play in the 2nd half (I think he got 2 minutes of court time). In the 1st Q, he was a monster ... 10 points and 7 rebounds (5 O boards) in 12 minutes. He was a mismatch the Greeks couldn't contain ... and then he was forgotten about. Coach K went with his small scoring line-up (Melo, LBJ and Wade together), and the US defense got killed time and again. Brand, Howard and Bosh combined for 30 minutes.

I'd also like to defend Bosh some. He didn't get alot of minutes most games. He played a good game against Germany. Got free for two backdoor oops (one an and-one), blocked a shot, and rebounded well. Bosh had very limited minutes vs Greece.

Against Greece, I thought the US settled too much for 3's, which they were mostly missing. I thought they needed to drive more. Melo had some good drive and dishes early on, mostly to Wade flashing along the baseline. Also, the drives would have put more pressure on the Greek defense and racked up more fouls against their bigs. Not that the US team was making free throws. With 4 minutes left and things looking urgent, LeBron finally woke up, stopped scowling and looking indignant, and drove in hard with success.

Anyway, it is a young team the US is putting forth.
Anthony has really increased his stock.
Be interesting to see him next season.
BlueSeats
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9/2/2006  12:56 PM
I only saw one half of TEAM USA basketball, so I don't know, but when I hear the defense was predicated on steals it has me wonder if this was designed to facilitate an up-tempo, open court style offense. I've read that the offense mostly freelanced and didn't have set plays to fall back on when things got confused. As such a steal would be the best way to initiate an open court offensive style rather than fighting for a defensive rebound.

All this may come into play for our knicks too. We all know we have some scorers on this team, but will they be able to defend, and will our offensive style predicate our defense, especially as we lack significant rebounders, short of perhaps Lee, who may or may not start?
bigbeast
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9/2/2006  12:57 PM
Posted by BoDid:

I caught the game against Greece live.
The defense was the main problem. The coaching staff didn't adjust. Pressure defense and gambling for steals didn't work aginst Greece. The US underestimated the poise and ability of the Greek guards. Why not switch up into a zone, or play more straight up without ball-hawking? Show some different looks. Use your bigs.

I didn't understand why Dwight Howard didn't play in the 2nd half (I think he got 2 minutes of court time). In the 1st Q, he was a monster ... 10 points and 7 rebounds (5 O boards) in 12 minutes. He was a mismatch the Greeks couldn't contain ... and then he was forgotten about. Coach K went with his small scoring line-up (Melo, LBJ and Wade together), and the US defense got killed time and again. Brand, Howard and Bosh combined for 30 minutes.

I'd also like to defend Bosh some. He didn't get alot of minutes most games. He played a good game against Germany. Got free for two backdoor oops (one an and-one), blocked a shot, and rebounded well. Bosh had very limited minutes vs Greece.

Against Greece, I thought the US settled too much for 3's, which they were mostly missing. I thought they needed to drive more. Melo had some good drive and dishes early on, mostly to Wade flashing along the baseline. Also, the drives would have put more pressure on the Greek defense and racked up more fouls against their bigs. Not that the US team was making free throws. With 4 minutes left and things looking urgent, LeBron finally woke up, stopped scowling and looking indignant, and drove in hard with success.

Anyway, it is a young team the US is putting forth.
Anthony has really increased his stock.
Be interesting to see him next season.


I didn't catch the gamje until late in the third and fromn that point on I didn't see Bosh or Howard. The I looked at the box-score and saw that Howard put up good numbers. Couldn't figure out why Hopward didn't play more.

"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
BoDid
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9/2/2006  1:15 PM
During the game, I kept saying out loud, "Put Howard In." Even my cat agreed.
The small ball concept only worked on one end, and Coach K never adjusted.

I also wondered whether LeBron was injured or just sulking. He was a complete non-factor until 4 minutes left. I thought LBJ and Wade would come out strong after their poor play against Germany. Looks like it took 2 bad games to rouse them against Argentina (though I missed that game). Really LeBron looked bad in those two games (Germany and Greece). He looked like a poor man's Carmelo Anthony out there. When I have thoughts of giving his roster spot to Rip or RJ or Ray Allen, I keep trying to remember that he's only 21.
nykshaknbake
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9/2/2006  2:47 PM
Yeah, that's gonna be the major question this year. Can Isiah get these guys to play hard nosed D and get a good defensive system in place. Hopefully Jeffries helps. But CHanning and CUrry really gotta step it up. If they do our guards will look alot better on the D too.
Posted by BlueSeats:

I only saw one half of TEAM USA basketball, so I don't know, but when I hear the defense was predicated on steals it has me wonder if this was designed to facilitate an up-tempo, open court style offense. I've read that the offense mostly freelanced and didn't have set plays to fall back on when things got confused. As such a steal would be the best way to initiate an open court offensive style rather than fighting for a defensive rebound.

All this may come into play for our knicks too. We all know we have some scorers on this team, but will they be able to defend, and will our offensive style predicate our defense, especially as we lack significant rebounders, short of perhaps Lee, who may or may not start?

wsdm
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9/2/2006  2:55 PM
I didn't understand why Dwight Howard didn't play in the 2nd half (I think he got 2 minutes of court time). In the 1st Q, he was a monster ... 10 points and 7 rebounds (5 O boards) in 12 minutes. He was a mismatch the Greeks couldn't contain ... and then he was forgotten about.
Wow; that's surprising!
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Marv
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9/3/2006  1:32 PM
wow!!! spain creamed greece without pau!! congrats darkknicks!

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nba/story/9635789/1

Spain overcomes odds, injury to win world championship


Sep. 3, 2006
CBS SportsLine.com wire reports

SAITAMA, Japan -- Pau Gasol's teammates kept their word, and he had a trophy for each crutch supporting him.

Spain won its first world championship without its star in a performance worthy of a Hollywood script.

With the injured Gasol cheering from the bench, Spain beat Greece 70-47 on Sunday night in an emotional victory some thought couldn't happen and few thought would be so easy.

Gasol led Spain (9-0) in scoring and rebounding throughout the tournament. When the 7-footer broke his foot with about a minute left in the 75-74 semifinal victory over Argentina, his team's gold-medal hopes dimmed considerably.

"Against Argentina that was a night of pain and happiness, and it has become happiness," said Gasol, the world championship trophy on one side and the MVP award on the other. "It couldn't be any better today. It's hard to describe with words."

"My teammates today played an amazing game," he added. "They played with their hearts and together as a unit. It's no fun to watch. I thought I would suffer some more, but I am so happy to see the way they responded without me being there."


The Gasol brothers, Marc and Pau, celebrate after leading Spain to the world title. (AP)
Gasol stood holding his head in his hands in the final seconds, openly in tears. It wasn't long before the Memphis Grizzlies star hopped to midcourt to join his teammates in a circle, sitting on the court wearing headbands given to them at the final buzzer.

"I was just super happy and couldn't contain myself from crying," he said. "It is so special to be a part of this team and not being able to be there really hurt me."

Spain's challenge seemed even more difficult considering a near perfect performance by Greece (8-1) in a 101-95 semifinal triumph over the United States. The European champions put on an impressive offensive and defensive display in getting to the final for the first time.

"Greece got to the final and played excellent," Gasol said. "I was a little afraid after the way they played together and on defense."

There was no reason to worry. Spain limited Greece to less than half the points it scored against the U.S. and kept its shooting percentage to about half (33 percent vs. 63 percent).

The United States won the bronze medal with a 96-81 victory over Argentina on Saturday.

Gasol averaged 21.3 points and 9.4 rebounds during the worlds. He has a partial fracture in his left foot, and the Grizzlies say he will need surgery.

"He's the best player in this tournament. I wanted to win this for him," Jose Calderon, who plays for the Toronto Raptors, said as he held up his gold medal. "We are a team. We had Pau in our minds. I think it was a special day."

Felipe Reyes started in Gasol's place and he had 10 points in the first half, one less than he had in the whole tournament -- he was limited to three games because of back problems.

Gasol's younger brother, Marc, gave Spain big minutes early in the middle. He had three rebounds in the game's first 17 minutes. He averaged 1.9 coming into Sunday's game.

"I was happily surprised by the way my brother grabbed the opportunity he got," Pau Gasol said. "I was very happy for him because he was a big part of the gold medal."

Everything went Spain's way as it took a 43-23 halftime lead. Its other stars were playing at their normal level and the bench was playing well above its head.

Meanwhile, Greece looked nothing like the team that had received plaudits from around the world for the way it convincingly beat the United States.

There was no big push from Greece in the third quarter. Gasol's teammates wouldn't allow it.

The lead was 54-34 with 10 minutes to go. It got only bigger.

"It was surprising, yes, because the Spanish team was everything around Gasol," Greece forward Konstas Tsartsaris said. "But we see today that the Spanish team is 12 players and not only one. They played excellent defensively and on offense also. They gave a great defensive effort."

Gasol came out of the players' tunnel before the game on crutches, wearing his red warmup top and jeans. As he sat on the bench while the teams were warming up, Greece forward Sofoklis Schortsanitis and coach Panagiotis Yannakis came over for visits.

He was up and hopping on one foot for each huddle. Players hugged him or slapped hands with him at each timeout. They were winning this game for him.

Jorge Garbajosa, who signed with the Raptors this summer, and Juan Carlos Navarro each had 20 points for Spain, which was fourth in 1982. Reyes finished with those 10 points and Marc Gasol grabbed four more rebounds, but their play off the bench was much more than numbers.

"To lose your franchise player, even more a great friend like Pau, was a very hard blow," Garbajosa said. "We talked yesterday that if normally we give 100 percent we had to give 150 percent because of Pau's absence."

Mihalis Kakiouzis had 17 points for Greece, which finished fourth in 1994 and 1998.

This was Europe's third straight world title -- Yugoslavia won in 1998 and 2002 -- and it will have the home continent advantage in 2010 with the tournament in Turkey.

DarkKnicks
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9/3/2006  2:33 PM
Thanks Marv. I am excited, really. This morning I almost cried when the game was reaching its end, what a defensive machine through the whole game.

Pau, this one's for you!!!
wsdm
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9/3/2006  5:45 PM
Wow, Pau broke his ankle! I thought the play was bizarre because he didn't land on an uneven surface (e.g., someone's foot). It just came out of nowhere.
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eViL
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9/3/2006  5:53 PM
Posted by wsdm:

Wow, Pau broke his ankle! I thought the play was bizarre because he didn't land on an uneven surface (e.g., someone's foot). It just came out of nowhere.

He broke his foot not his ankle.
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Team USA loses to Greece. No more gold!

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