So to keep out of the dark ages, 82 games (I'm SURE Tom is quite familiar with this site) offers a player's rebounding rating based on chances among other things... here's a few player some of us might be familiar with:
Jeff Foster 37
Nazr 32
David Lee 29
Mike Sweetney 29
Chris Wilcox 29
Channing Frye 25
Charlie V 24
Rasho Nesterovich 21
Othella Harrington 20
Jared Jefferies 20

Posted by fishmike:

Tom, I didn't ask for a thesis on the problems stemming from basing judgements on personal observation. I asked you a question. I will ask it again....

When you watched Knick games do you come away thinking, wow.. Frye is a solid rebounder, or that we really own the glass?

This question is irrelevant to the matter of whether Frye is a productive rebounder. It's like someone telling you Joe has been a productive worker in the office because he's getting a lot of tasks done, but then you say, "I don't care-- does it SEEM like Joe is productive?" That is just bass-ackwards.

at least I offer some. All you do is regurgitate #s from the internet.

"Tomverve... a man with no opinion and always right"

Here is another shining example of how your judgments can be distorted. You see me cite stats fairly often and so pigeonhole me into this stat-head stereotype you seem to have. I offer up plenty of opinions-- should have kept Butler, should keep Woods, Jeffries signing probably overrated by most Knicks fans, pretty skeptical of Francis/Marbury working, think Marbury critiques are overrated, etc. The difference between my opinions and yours that seems to irritate you so much is that every once and a while I bother to back up my opinions with real, objective evidence. I think it's pretty funny that you attack me for not being completely naive about my own judgments, though.

Do you have basketball knowledge? Do you understand the game?

just so you dont go gay robot on me that wasnt an attack. If I didnt think you knew something about BB, I wouldnt ask your opinion. I'm assuming you, and I am asking you what you *see*

Just didnt want you to feel pigeonholed

fishmike, he already explained that what you see on the court alone is not an accurate indication of how good a player is a doing something.

it doesnt matter what impression he got of frye's rebounding when he watched him becuase that doesnt mean much.

Oh and if it makes a difference, I got the impression that frye was a pretty good rebounder when I watched him last season, but that doesnt prove anything becuase personal reflections usually arent as accurate as statistics, especially since I didnt even watch every second of every knick game last season. did you fish?

[Edited by - slimpack on 08-11-2006 12:12 PM]

Posted by Allanfan20:

Stats mean something, but in this case, it really doesn't.

Tom, you usually present a solid arguement with your stats, but the point fishmike is trying to make is that it sometimes doesn't have any validity to it b/c it paints no picture whatsoever a lot of the times. And this is a case where it doesn't really show much. Has Frye had some big rebounding games. Yes.

But what happens 8 out of 10 times throughout the course of the game when he's going up for a rebound. Someone easily jumps in front of him, someone out muscles him and gets him out of position. Frye grabs a rebound and somebody knocks it out of his hands. A rebound comes right into Frye's lap and then he grabs it. Frye once again gets out muscled and loses position.

I am not even exxagerating when I say that b/c that really is how it's been for Frye. His rebounding is bad and it even got progressively worse as the season got older and he hit that "Rookie wall."

Again, most of us, including me, love Frye and we aknowledge that Frye works hard. I don't doubt he can eventually be a good rebounder. But last season, it was flat out ugly at times.

I dont know if your exaggerating or not, but I do think your wrong. I think your 8 out of 10 times thing is waaaaay off. I remember alot of times last season when frye would go up strong for a rebound, and others when he would get a putback slam, (like trevor ariza did alot), and other when he would do a good job boxing his man out (btw, I havent waivered on my stance that what you see isnt accurate, Im only saying what I said to illustrate the ineffectiveness of a my anecdotal evidence vs yours based arguement). I dont suppose that there is some way that you could prove the him losing the rebound 8 out of 10 times claim. oh well if frye did get out muscled for the rebound 8 out of 10 times like you say, than that means curry was outmuscled 9 out of 10 times, becuase frye is a slightly better rebounder than curry.







[Edited by - slimpack on 08-11-2006 12:36 PM]

Posted by SlimPack:

Posted by Allanfan20:

Stats mean something, but in this case, it really doesn't.

Tom, you usually present a solid arguement with your stats, but the point fishmike is trying to make is that it sometimes doesn't have any validity to it b/c it paints no picture whatsoever a lot of the times. And this is a case where it doesn't really show much. Has Frye had some big rebounding games. Yes.

But what happens 8 out of 10 times throughout the course of the game when he's going up for a rebound. Someone easily jumps in front of him, someone out muscles him and gets him out of position. Frye grabs a rebound and somebody knocks it out of his hands. A rebound comes right into Frye's lap and then he grabs it. Frye once again gets out muscled and loses position.

I am not even exxagerating when I say that b/c that really is how it's been for Frye. His rebounding is bad and it even got progressively worse as the season got older and he hit that "Rookie wall."

Again, most of us, including me, love Frye and we aknowledge that Frye works hard. I don't doubt he can eventually be a good rebounder. But last season, it was flat out ugly at times.

I dont know if your exaggerating or not, but I do think your wrong. I think your 8 out of 10 times thing is waaaaay off. I remember alot of times last season when frye would go up strong for a rebound, and others when he would get a putback slam, (like trevor ariza did alot), and other when he would do a good job boxing his man out (btw, I havent waivered on my stance that what you see isnt accurate, Im only saying what I said to illustrate the ineffectiveness of a my anecdotal evidence vs yours based arguement). I dont suppose that there is some way that you could prove the him losing the rebound 8 out of 10 times claim. oh well if frye did get out muscled for the rebound 8 out of 10 times like you say, than that means curry was outmuscled 9 out of 10 times, becuase frye is a slightly better rebounder than curry.







[Edited by - slimpack on 08-11-2006 12:36 PM]

Curry is a different example. He was out of shape and lazy. And you're right that he has had good moments when grabbing the boards. I don't deny that. But what I was trying to illustrate in that 8 out of 10 times part was that for the most part, he has been beat under the boards. My criticism is that he needs to work on his leg strength. The Knicks coaching staff agrees with me, b/c they pretty much said that when they said on tv that they want him to work on his "Balance." Meaning, increase your base strength so that you don't lose it nearly as much. I don't deny that he's working on this as we speak b/c he has always struck me as a really hard worker.

I believe it will all pay off for him. I'm not bashing on Frye my man. I'm just saying he needs to work on his rebounding a lot and I don't doubt that he is.

I think some of you are beginning to cloud the issue. The main point being is Frye overrated? In terms of scoring NO he's not. In terms of defense, I don't think anyone ever said that he was great, so NO. In terms of overall team play No cuz he does things that a team player should do. He has those intangibles. In terms of rebounding in particular, maybe. He's not a textbook reboiunder at this point, but then how many guys come into the league PERFECT in everything? I would agree that he sometimes looked bad attempting to rebound, but then he also had good moments where he did everything right. I'd say the fair assessment is that he's inconsistent.

SO we know he has character, since he went and worked on his game and his body as he was told. He doesn't seem to back away from a challenge to improve, so i'd say that he's NOT overrated and that he has a good chance of being a very good player for this team. No one that I know of has said that he's GOING to be Duncan. I've heard that he reminds them of Duncan, which is a nice compliment. I don't think that he should be embarrassed by getting schooled by Amare who is a freak of nature and more experienced. It could have also been a case of the sudden shock of facing an NBA elite after only playing against non NBA competition. That can sometimes catch you back on your heels. I don't remember him looking so bad during the season against good competition. He seemed to hold his own against D. Howard who is another guy that is better than him.

Dec. 14, 2005

Howard - 23pts - 13rebs - 1blk - 2asts in 33mins
Frye - 10pts - 9rebs - 2blks - 1asts in 29mins

Dec. 28, 2005

Howard - 11pts - 8rebs - 1blk - 2asts in 37mins
Frye - 12pts - 6rebs - 0blks - 1ast in 24mins

Jan. 27, 2006

Howard - 10pts - 14rebs - 1blk - 1ast in 41mins
Frye - 18pts - 7rebs - 1blk - 0asts in 29mins

To me that's a very good gauge to test him by, with Frye being a rookie against a bonafide stud like Howard.

Not trying to outclass you. Jerk.

You made equally good points as well.

Posted by tomverve:

fish, if you just want my subjective impressions on Frye and that's all, here it is:

To be honest, I don't have much of an impression of Frye's rebounding ability one way or the other. He didn't strike me as a particularly good rebounder this past season but he didn't strike me as a particularly bad one either.

I do think his D was pretty bad. I remember yelling at the TV fairly often when Frye would once again fail to rotate properly and leave someone too wide open. He didn't hold down the paint well either.

I think on offense, Frye's ability is probably better than his overall numbers last season suggested. It looked to me like he got in a slump in the second half of the season due mostly to lost confidence/hesitation on his jumper-- probably due to Larry Brown. With a coaching change and a full season of experience under his belt, I think he'll have a very strong showing this season on offense. I expect our deadliest weapon this season to be the Marbury/Frye pick and pop.

good stuff... I agree 100% on the D. You could see him try, but too often that effort was because he knew he had screwed up and was working double hard to get back into position. It was pretty bad at times. I wondered if he had slow feet.

Also agree on his offense... the only thinking that can keep him from being a bigtime scorer in this league will be is if his defense and rebounding are just bad.

Good observations

I was probably too harsh in my assesment of his rebounding. Maybe sucks and terrible arent fair words, but with his frame, size, hands, quickness, et al he should be a Garnett type glass cleaner. I hope he gets there.

The one saving grace about Frye is his deficiencies on defense and rebounding are about relatively low fundamental skill development.

If he were a fundamentally sound player on the defensive end and his performance was mediocre, well, there's no upside. (see Jason Collins - no amount of fundamentals will ever give him the athleticism to be a 10ppg/10rpg guy, in spite of his big minutes)

In Frye's case, there are skills he can learn and refine to become a better player - it's just that he needs to learn the tricks of the trade. He's a pretty good athlete to begin with, so his upside is good.

So, in any event, going back a bunch of posts, I wouldn't mind if Frye turned into a pure scorer, averaging 24ppg with an anemic 6rpg. It'd just mean the Knicks would need to rely on other positions to do the rebounding work.

It's not too outrageous a premise. If Frye's talent is scoring, by all means let him do what he does best-- you don't want him to obsess about improving his weaker assets at the expense of his bread'n'butter.

Posted by Solace:

When you talk about rebounding numbers, you have to keep something in mind. Curry is also a below-average rebounder at the center position. Put two poor rebounders at PF/C together and, look, someone has to get some rebounds, otherwise we lose every game by 35.

Also, 5.8 rpg in 24.2 minutes is below average for a 6-11 power forward. Still, is there time to improve? Absolutely. I hope he does. We're going to need him to, because if it's Frye, Lee, Marbury and Nate that we're building around, we need to have two studs in that core, if we're really going somewhere.

But why restrict it to just looking at who the C is? The Knicks had good rebounding guards and good rebounding overall. If the 11 other active players are grabbing above average rebound totals, there's fewer available for the 12th individual.