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That Lyin' SOB Isiah Thomas Fools Us Once Again
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misterearl
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8/9/2006  12:21 PM
bippity - a million mistakes?

Nah, more like fifty-eleven.

Speaking of mistakes, how many players on the current Knicks roster do you want to keep?

[Edited by - misterearl on 08-09-2006 12:24 PM]
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Bippity10
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8/9/2006  12:23 PM
huh?
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Bippity10
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8/9/2006  12:33 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Martin - plan?

We don't need no steenkin' plan!

The plan is to get better and win. The one small caveat that so many people conveniently overlook is that a GM must negotiate with his competition. No plan can plan for that.

Sone decisions are difficult. You can't sign BOTH Jackie Butler AND Jeffries. Isiah had to decide which player he coveted most while simultaneously handling negotiations. It was a calculated risk that Jeffries might return to the Wiz.

The other non-deals are pure speculation. Theo Ratliff? Get real.

The coaches? Big deal. Coaches are hired to be fired. Did you realy expect Larry Brown to create such discord last year at this time?

You gotta break some eggs to make an omelette

So does that mean that hiring LB wasn't a mistake? I guess I'm missing your point. LB was a mistake and part of Isiah's mistake. His plan was to build a team around LB. He said this in a press conference. That plan failed and we are re-planning a year later.

JJ came in out of shape and didnt' produce. I'm sure Isiah didn't expect that. And I know he's really not expecting it again this year. Now if JJ comes into camp in shape and producing than it wasn't a mistake. But if he is fat and ends up being bought out I guess we will just chalk it up to being part of our plan. Buying out JJ, LB, Vinny, Jalen, Mo and anyone else would not be a mistake, it's all part of the plan. If that was the plan it probably just would have been easier to buy out Eisley and Charlie and Allan and all those guys 3 years ago.

In your rush to respond to anything negative you dismiss the fact that you and I are making the exact same point about mistakes. In building a team eggs will be broken. Plans may be scraped and changed. That's fine. I'm not knocking the guy for that. But I do agree with Fish in that there comes a point where you have to say maybe we should try someone else with a different plan. Only Isiah producing victories at some point can avoid this. If not, oh well. You cannot continue to produce losses, blame the coach for the losses and continue on your plan. Eventually you have to be held accountable. That's what's happening to Isiah and is completely fair. Why would you knock a person for saying this? I'm not sure I understand why this is even an argument? If he shows progress everyone will get off the guys back. Until then it's just a bunch of young guys sitting on a roster with potential.
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misterearl
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8/9/2006  12:39 PM
bippity - who on the current Knicks roster would you keep ?
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TMS
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8/9/2006  12:40 PM
Posted by misterearl:

TMS - what "pattern" of "mistakes" are you referring to?

Please cite specific examples.

Stephon Marbury trade (a trade i approved of at the time) - we took on a max player signed longterm who's not worth max dollars & has not come close to living up to the expectations he came here with in terms of becoming the leader for this franchise, along w/Penny's max salary... IT gave up picks we could have used to start building that "younger & more athletic" core he said he wanted when he got here... looking back now, i believe this trade has set this franchise back several years in the rebuilding that needed to take place years ago... islesfan & BRIGGS were completely dead on right about this one... horrible trade

Keith Van Horn & Doleac for Tim Thomas & Nazr - bad trade in my view... completely destroyed the good chemistry we had going immediately before that trade went down... why was this trade necessary to begin with?

Vin Baker signing - complete waste of money on a washed up player

KT's extension - which led to trade for Q Rich & a pick (Nate Rob)... does anyone believe we couldn't simply have traded KT for a 1st round pick & any expiring instead of signing him to that extension & taking on a player w/a bad back & a bad contract? how did signing KT to an extension adhere to his "younger & more athletic" motto?

hiring of Lenny Wilkens over Mike Fratello, which led to the whole Larry Brown fiasco last season


those are the ones that come to mind off the bat... maybe there's a few more i could cite if i wanted to backtrack on every move Isiah's made since he got here... i won't bother discussing Francis & Jalen cuz i don't wanna get into the whole "who was at fault" debate again.

IT's made some good moves too (Frye, Lee, Nate, Ariza, Butler, DerMarr)... this year is the final chance for him... either he proves all the moves he's made as GM have resulted in a big improvement this year, or else he needs to be let go... no more cheesy smiles to charm his way out of accountability... put up or shut up.
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martin
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8/9/2006  12:47 PM
Posted by misterearl:

The other non-deals are pure speculation. Theo Ratliff? Get real.

Hey, I am sure I can find a google account of where LB said he wanted Theo and Snow... just about as much as we can google and find the same Jalen/Francis remarks. So which is true and which is not true?
The coaches? Big deal. Coaches are hired to be fired.

Coaching changes are about as disruptive as lineup changes, right? Continuity. Are they both OK for the players to deal with or bad/hard for the players to deal with.

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TMS
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8/9/2006  12:47 PM
OH, & how can i forget the worst FA signing of alltime = BIG TURD JAMES

do i really have to explain that one?
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misterearl
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8/9/2006  12:50 PM
Your retrospective goes into great detail on the "bad" deals and totally glosses over the "good" deals as mere footnotes. So, you liked Tim Thomas?
Let me get this straight, you'd rather have him than Eddy Curry?

Where does Qyntel Woods rank? Good or bad?

Weatherspoon for Moochie Norris?

What current Knicks would you keep on the roster?

[Edited by - misterearl on 08-09-2006 12:55 PM]
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Bippity10
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8/9/2006  12:55 PM
Posted by misterearl:

bippity - who on the current Knicks roster would you keep ?

Finally a good question. It really depends on the particular path you are going and what time frame we are discussing. I'm thinking long-term and how it appears we are building our team. This may not be what I would have done from the beginning but based on where we are today this is the way I would go:

I like the frontcourt. I like Lee, Frye, Curry and JJ2. I like them for probably the same reasons you do. It's versatile on the defensive end and the players appear to compliment each other. The additions I would make would be a shot blocking rebounder(one we don't have to worry about being motivated or not) and I would also target a designated shooter that you can use to compliment Curry as his post game gets better. The rebounder can't be a normal rebounder. He has to be a guy that can take a rebound away from Shaq during crunch time of the fourth quarter. But I do think the front court is on the right track, but we do need some toughness. Anyone not mentioned is potential for trade bait. This doesn't mean they stink or I hate them. It just means that they can be used to bring in someone that fits what I said above.

the backcourt is more complicated. I like all these guys talentwise. But you do have 5 guys(6 if you throw in Jalen) that can legitimately ask for 25-48 minutes a night. This has the potential to create great competition and raise games or it can tear a team apart. Based on the whining I saw last year and througout most of their careers I think this is not a situation that any of these guys will strive in. You can keep 3 of the 6 and be in good shape. Two may be ideal. As replacements you must find a player that can shut down the perimeter. None of our guys do that and without a shotblocker that can be trouble. Now the signing of Jeffries helps us because now we have a large frontcourt which can at least cut down some of the penetration angles and gaps with their arms alone. But you can't minimize the importance of perimeter defense. If Francis and Marbs are cold you will need someone to shut down opposing guards to prevent runs. You also can help yourself by getting 1 or 2 more ball movers oo that Curry is not made to be a garbage player because he doesn't hustle enough to be one. He needs to be rewarded from time to time ot maintain his focus.

In summary: I don't use too many names because all our guys are talented. It's the chemistry and balance that hurts. Any of our guys could stay and anyone can be jettisoned without lowering the talent level of the team. We need balance. We need a team. Those that don't buy into the team concept and where our coach is going, need to go. It won't hurt us to lose any of the vets.
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misterearl
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8/9/2006  1:05 PM
bip - work with me here. You state that you "like"...

Frye

Curry

Jeffries

Lee

but please understand, what I'm asking is not necessariy based on popularity, or personal preference... but a more "objective" assessmant - based on the players you think the Knicks can win with on the roster.

If the talent level is a secondary issue compared with compatibity, what players can you trust to buy into your perception of TEAM?

Is it just those four and thet rest must go?
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TMS
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8/9/2006  1:06 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Your retrospective goes into great detail on the "bad" deals and totally glosses over the "good" deals as mere footnotes. So, you liked Tim Thomas?
Let me get this straight, you'd rather have him than Eddy Curry?

Where does Qyntel Woods rank? Good or bad?

Weatherspoon for Moochie Norris?

What current Knicks would you keep on the roster?


hey genius, you asked me for examples of bad deals Isiah's made & i gave them to you... i only added the footnote of the good deals at the end so you'd know i didn't think he ONLY made bad choices as our GM.

Tim Thomas? have you been posting w/me for any length of time over the past year? if you have, you'd know just how much utter disgust & loathing i have for Tim Thomas... i rue the day Isiah ever made that trade to bring him here... & please, don't try & sell me on the fact that he traded him for Eddy Curry... we coulda thrown in any old expiring contract to make that deal possible... the Bulls basically told Tim to go away & never come back... that's what they thought of him.

Qyntel Woods... was that an Isiah decision, or was it LB? let's leave that along w/the Francis & Jalen discussion.

Spoon for Moochie? is that a trade that even matters in this discussion? who cares? they both suck & didn't do squat to help this franchise.

as for current Knicks i'd keep on this roster:

Frye
Crawford
Lee
Balkman
Jefferies
Collins

all the rest can be traded for all i care... they aren't guys i feel will be integral to our future success, & that includes Eddy Curry. (obviously, you have to get value for him if you do decide to trade him, but he's not a guy i'd lose any sleep over if they ended up trading)
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misterearl
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8/9/2006  1:15 PM
TMS - I'm growing weary of your personal insults and snippy bitchlike behavior. If you can't participate in a passionate discussion with some class, then perhaps you should spend the majority of your time in the word association thread.

Grow Up

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TMS
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8/9/2006  1:17 PM
that's 5 seconds of my life i'll never get back...thanks.
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Bippity10
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8/9/2006  1:22 PM
Posted by misterearl:

bip - work with me here. You state that you "like"...

Frye

Curry

Jeffries

Lee

but please understand, what I'm asking is not necessariy based on popularity, or personal preference... but a more "objective" assessmant - based on the players you think the Knicks can win with on the roster.

If the talent level is a secondary issue compared with compatibity, what players can you trust to buy into your perception of TEAM?

Is it just those four and thet rest must go?

did you read the post?

Based on last year and the out and our team wide revolt I'm confused about who will buy into the team concept this year. So far I haven't see too many guys doing it. It's a different story and a different plan now that Isiah is coach. Whether you beleive it or not. Isiah has a different philosophy than LB so we will have to see who will buy into it and who won't. Essentially for the 80th time we are starting over again trying to figure out who's in and who isn't.

The mistake fans make is that when building a team you find the guys you hate and then get rid of them. I don't think that way. I want to find the guys that fit and go with them. I just gave you my outline above, not sure how I can be more clear. All the players are similar and all can be in the group that we can keep and all can be in the group to go. I don't know who these players are because they ALL QUIT LAST YEAR. So I have to wait until I see Isiah's rotation before I can give you a more definitive answer on who we should keep or not. If we had a year of Isiah as coach it would be easier to say. But since we are starting over once again, it's hard to make such a judgement.

My personal opinion is this. I don't like the Marbs/Francis backcourt. It can win games, but ultimately when we are really successful I'm of the opinion that one or both will be gone. So I say if a good deal comes up you hop on it. as for the rest of the backcourt it depends on hwo isn't playing. Judging by their past histories anyone getting less minutes will be a pain in the arse. We will be better off replacing them with the role players I mentioned above. I won't know who these players are until we once again start with our new plan and see who Isiah decides to play.

I cannot get more objective than that. I outlined my plan for you. Can't get anymore clear than that. Anything else I suspect is a ploy by you to have me mention a name so you can call me a pessimist and tell me hwy that player is so special.
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rvhoss
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8/9/2006  4:00 PM
I keep reading the lb lover posts and it's the same 5 bad moves and at the same time applauding the good moves made AND at the same time completely ignoring that the number and magnitude of good moves are far greater than the number of bad moves...

if jerome james plays well next year, then they may have nothing to post.

So, once again we remind you, you say this move sucked (e.g. getting malik rose) and then say but I like the lee move (don't those cancel each other out?)

Not signing jackie b, signing Jeffries (don't they cancel each other out)

Forget about having 5 first round picks in the last two rounds that will all be contributors to our knick future (can any other team boast a comparable number and/or quality picks in the last two drafts?)

then you give us JJ2, well, that trumps JJ1 by a long shot, because JJ1 still has time to turn it around.

Qwoods and jackie b original pickups (ignored)

Ariza in the second round with our only pick (ignored)

I see a pattern of success. you see a pattern of failure.

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misterearl
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8/9/2006  4:23 PM
rvhoss - how can I be the man when you're the man?

What is curious is that master bip refuses to commit to not a single Knicks player past the Fantastic Frontcourt Four of Frye, Curry, Jeffries and Lee.

Sheesh, not even Mardy Collins or Renaldo.

... and what did Steve Francis ever do to piss off so many people?

Really

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Bippity10
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8/9/2006  4:35 PM
Posted by misterearl:

rvhoss - how can I be the man when you're the man?

What is curious is that master bip refuses to commit to not a single Knicks player past the Fantastic Frontcourt Four of Frye, Curry, Jeffries and Lee.

Sheesh, not even Mardy Collins or Renaldo.

... and what did Steve Francis ever do to piss off so many people?

Really

Misterearl what do I have to commit to. I dont' get it. What is not to understand about my post. Why must I say we have to keep Frye and lee and Mardy and Balkman. I'm not committed to anyone on this team. They can all go and they can all stay. If Cleveland offers Lebron for Frye, Lee, Curry and JJ than guess what? See ya guys!!!!

My only commitment is seeing the Knicks win. Charlie Ward was my favorite player in a Knick uniform and I wasn't committed to him. What makes us better is what I care about. I have said lets keep 2 or 3 out of the 6 man backcourt. This frees up time for Collins to play in junk time instead of watching 6 veterans play ahead of him. In my view Nate, Jamal, Stephon, Stevie, are the same player. Give me any combination of the two and I'm okay with it. Just clear some of the fat. I'd prefer to keep Jamal, Nate and Q because I like their attitudes the most. Then go out and get a true PG. That's my ultimate first choice. But if the combination is Steph, Stevie and Jalen(the combination I hate the most) I think we can end up still doing okay. It's not who is gone, it's trimming the fat. Just because you need someone to take sides and hate or love players, doesn't mean we all think that way. Move on.

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misterearl
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8/9/2006  4:46 PM
bip - so what you are saying is that you reserve the right to second-guess moves without putting your opinion on the line in advance?

just chillin' dude

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Bippity10
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8/9/2006  4:49 PM
I like the front court not because I like the players individually. I like the frontcourt because you have four guys that compliment each other. If you go out and get a legitimate rebounder and shotblocker and throw in a sharpshooter you have a very good frontcourt.

The backcourt I like all of them skills wise. All are capable plaeyrs. all can help the KNicks win. But the combinations of the backcourt does not compliment. We have a bunch of guys that can score and pass as a last result. We have no defenders, no ball movers and noone willing to do the dirty work. It's a small backcourt with no jumpshooters. This does not mean they are bad players. It means it's a poor mix. It doesn't matter who we keep and who goes. The same problems will be there regardless of who we keep. So keep a combination that buys into Isiah's plan and then go out and get complimentary players that take care of the weaknesses of the players you keep.

Can that be more clear. Or do I still have to have a keep or kill list.
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misterearl
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8/9/2006  4:50 PM
The point being, everyone has a fantasy deal that they would make in a perfect, non-competitive, 'dreck for talent' universe....

... but how many are willing to "man-up" for the players they would keep and stick by them through thick and thinner?

bip - just for the record. I appreciate your effort.

Effort wins ballgames
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