Posted by fishmike:

Posted by oohah:



Here is what I don't understand about the whole "We could have picked him later" or "We overpaid" argument:

If he turns out to be a good player, who cares where he was picked?

For example, Manu Ginobli was picked number 58 in the draft. If the Spurs had picked Ginobli in the first round instead of the 58th pick, did that mean they overpaid for him because they could have picked him later?

If a bunch of players dropped and ended up being good players it means they should have been picked earlier, simple as that.

I don't see the sense in not picking the player you want because you think you can pick him later. In fact, I would consider that to be foolish.

oohah

well thats where the shortsighted Knicks and Isiah come in. Ginobli is poor example because there wasnt a player who every scout touted as a lottery pick sitting on the board in front of him. But by that same logic what if Manu was selected in a different year and it cost them Tony Parker? Whould that have mattered? Would you still like Manu? Would that have changed the path of that franchise?

What are you saying? How you use your assets doesnt matter so long as you like what you got?

Ever hear of something in business called the cost of lost opportunity?

If Marcus Williams was "widely touted" as lotto talent, why didn't he get drafted in the lottery? why did 20 teams pass on him? why did a less polished prospect like Rondo go ahead of him at the PG slot? if Marcus is such a stud why did he get shut out in a summer league game? I'm sure you'll tell me that summer league doesn't count, but if you think Briggs wouldn't have made a thread about Balkman getting shut out and whined about not taking Marcus again... well, he would have.

this was a weak draft, a draft to fill needs. the Knicks addressed what I felt to be their single most glaring need and I'm happy with the way Balkman seems.

Balkman does EVERYTHING a lot of guys here have pined for years. he's a perfect fit with Lee and Nate and Craw for at the very least a very uptempo, defensive second unit.

as for taking a guy "at market value" - the people who set the market value in the draft are wrong A LOT. A lot more than Isiah is wrong. Taking a guy you covet when you have the opportunity is fine in the draft. I agree Isiah could be more shrewd in trade dealings as far as waiting until the timing is right and the price is right, but in the draft - take what you want if you can get it.

Posted by fishmike:

Posted by martin:

Posted by rvhoss:

I'd take joe dumars, but hey, he's black, doesn't qualify for your list.

no need for this kind of talk RV.

and out come the true colors.. good job RV

oohah, its clear you dont like Marcus Williams or value his game one bit. Thats fine, its your opinion. But you said yourself your not a big believer in BPA when your not dealing with star players. So explain Collins then. Do you really believe the Suns (who Balkman didnt even work out for) were going to take him before 30? Because we used that (Collins) pick on a player thats currently 5 on the PG depth chart. My problem has nothing to do with Balkman. I dont know if he will be a good player or not. I hope he is. My problem is Isiah messed up yet again by overpaying, and missing out on a chance to get a very good player that DID fill a need.

Regardless of what you think here's where Marcus ranked in 7 mock drafts.

nbadraft.net 13
draftexpress.com 8
espn mock 13
yahoo mock 6
cnn-si mock 8
probasketball 7
insidehoops 8

Did you see him the summer league? He dominated prompting those above sources to confirm he was indeed the steal of the draft.

Isiah does not take advantage of situations, and he does not utilize assets well. Its hurt us time and time again. The draft is just another one of those times. Eddie Curry was one time. Mo Taylor another. Jerome James may actually cost us a 21 year old role player in JB. Franics was another time. Jalen Rose was another time. Isiah is willing to take on contracts and players no other team is willing to take on, and all these teams he trades with magically improve astronomically.

Fish, I couldn't agree more with everything you said. I've said it a million times since the draft, this has NOTHING TO DO WITH BALKMAN. This has to do with having a GM that actually knows what he's doing. Did anyone see teams trading down to take players they wanted, how come Isiah didn't do that, how come Isiah always gets giddy and pulls the trigger on a deal as soon as he sees it. Isiah is a GREAT talent evaluator, but he's terrible at utilizing the resources he has around him and this is a time where he screwed up. As Fish said above, Isiah has stated time and time again that this team is rebuilding.

If this team is rebuilding then they should be taking BPA until rebuilding is over and thats when you start looking to the draft to draft guys that can fill small holes and needs. Marcus Williams is going to be All-Star PG in this league and Isiah passed on him for absolutely no reason, only to draft Balkman(a nice player) but not a future All-Star PG who controls the tempo of the game and distributes the ball. The Knicks have NO distributers at PG and thats a huge problem.

Posted by misterearl:

>>you will continue to pine what you feel are the positives while ignoring the simple fact that this team has gotten worse since Isiah has been here

Solace - are you saying the knicks were on the right track before Isiah took the job?

The Bulls took 6 years.

Posted by bigbeast:

Posted by Solace:

Posted by misterearl:

Solace - are you saying the knicks were on the right track before Isiah took the job?

The only part of the right track I felt we had at the time was Lampe, and maybe Sweetney. So, I'd have to say no. However, I think we're in even worse position that we were three years ago. I guess that's an accomplishment, because most GMs would've tried to get us out of our predicament. Instead, Isiah put us in deeper.

You think we are in a deeper hole with Frye, Curry, Lee, Nate, Balkman and craw as our future as opposed to when Layden was steering the ship and Lampe (the summer league allstar) and Sweetney (who couldn't consistantly crack a rotation that was desperately seeking a post player, any post player) were our future?

Yes I do. I don't see any stars in that group. It'll be a decent team, maybe even a .500 team at some point. That's great. $125 million for a .500 team. We could've been under the cap already if Isiah took some initiative! Instead, he took the initiave to do stratagies that time has proven does not work -- add payroll and overpay in every trade.

You name Frye, Curry, Lee, Nate, Balkman, Crawford as our future. I'm not high on Curry. Frye I think will be a good starter, but no star. Lee is going to be a nice role player. Nate -- a spark off the bench. Balkman -- a defensive player off the bench (Shandon Anderson?). Crawford -- 6th man quality? We got younger, I'll give him that, but there's something to be said for quality and adding payroll to the league's highest.

Posted by fishmike:

crzy.. your saying everyone was wrong. Not like 1-2 people. Everyone that did analysis of this draft had him in the lottery and are wrong. Where was he in your mock draft? As for why he fell we have seen in the past that once a guy breaks a certain spot he keeps falling because none of the teams worked him out and expected him to be available. Danny Granger and Gerald Green come to mind last year.

Again, this has nothing to do with Balkman who would have been available at 30. Balkman isnt the mistake, taking him 20 was. Do the Hawks have a PG yet? MW had 1 dud game in the SLs. The other 4 he was sick. If we dont keep him trade him to the Hawks for future picks in a year when we dont have 100 guys already on the roster. We cant afford to waste picks, and Collins at 30 is a total waste. We should have drafted MW, made him the PG of the future, or traded him for future assets. Now we have Balkman (good) and Collins (waste).

Explain to me how this is a good job. He overpaid as he always does.

Posted by crzymdups:

Posted by BRIGGS:

Lets look at Marcus Williams 5 game total. Lets take out his worst game as they played b-b 5 times in a row---every player will have given into fatigue atleast one game.


in the other 4 games


9-15 24 points 12 assits 3 rebounds
4-12 16 points 9 assits 4 rebounds 2 steals
2-8 16points 12 assits 3 rebounds 2 steals
11-15 27 points 3 assits 3 rebounds 1 steal
---------------------------------------------
26-50==51%
21 points
9 assists
3.5 reb
1.75 steals

not a bad sample

how distorted!

let's take out his two best games instead:

4-12 16 points 9 assits 4 rebounds 2 steals
2-8 16points 12 assits 3 rebounds 2 steals
0-7 0 points 4 assists 4 rebounds 1 steal

6-27==22.2%
10.6 points
8.3 assists
3.6 reb
1.66 steals

stats mean nothing in summer league, it's about how you play. he's clearly got a mind for the game and can find his teammates, but he isn't a finished product and I think he needs to get in better shape.

         ppg      apg      rpg     spg
mw       10.6     8.3      3.6    1.66 
rb       7.6      1.8      4.2    1.4