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O.T. War in the middle East...
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Killa4luv
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7/14/2006  4:37 PM
Posted by TMat614:
Posted by Killa4luv:

[The US is in Iraq because of Iraq has the worlds 2nd largest oil reserves. It has nothing to do with liberty, democracy, or a better life for anyone except Haliburton, ExxonMobil, and the rest of Bush's buddies.

people blame Bush for being responsible for the high gas prices. so if he is supposedly taking all this oil out of Iraq wouldn't gas prices be lower.

taking oil out or not, there is a war going on, and the country is not producing the same amount of oil as it was pre-invasion. And furthermore, if you had control of the oil you'd keep the supply low regardless, to keep the prices high.
AUTOADVERT
Killa4luv
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7/14/2006  4:43 PM
Posted by colorfl1:

It is a intricate issue... you cannot really believe taht US soldiers are risking their lives because they are trying to retain oil... they are doing it because the stabalization of the Middle East is intertwined with US security for the future...
If that makes you sleep better at night, fine. There is an aspect of what you are saying that is true, but you must remember, Iraq was quite stable prior to dessert storm 1. If you think the billion dollar profit grab isn't the #1 reason, you are truly naive.
colorfl1
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7/14/2006  4:48 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by TMat614:
Posted by Killa4luv:

[The US is in Iraq because of Iraq has the worlds 2nd largest oil reserves. It has nothing to do with liberty, democracy, or a better life for anyone except Haliburton, ExxonMobil, and the rest of Bush's buddies.

people blame Bush for being responsible for the high gas prices. so if he is supposedly taking all this oil out of Iraq wouldn't gas prices be lower.

taking oil out or not, there is a war going on, and the country is not producing the same amount of oil as it was pre-invasion. And furthermore, if you had control of the oil you'd keep the supply low regardless, to keep the prices high.

The world's economies are intertwined with stabalized oil prices.. so long as the US is unable to create a more stable Middle East they make the world vulnerable to a Hitler like figure (Read: Iranian president) arising and holding the world's economies for ransome...

To thiink that the US is their to just steal all the oil is so simplistic and sinister.. you are basically buying the propaganda of rogue nations...

do you really believe the US wants to invest 2 trillion dollars to procure Iraq's oil??? That is idiotic, they could have taken that money and invested it in finding new fields or energy sources without the conflict... of course there is far more at stake...

do not be surprised when Iran makes their move in the years ahead...
TMat614
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7/14/2006  5:02 PM
Posted by colorfl1:


The world's economies are intertwined with stabalized oil prices.. so long as the US is unable to create a more stable Middle East they make the world vulnerable to a Hitler like figure (Read: Iranian president) arising and holding the world's economies for ransome...

To thiink that the US is their to just steal all the oil is so simplistic and sinister.. you are basically buying the propaganda of rogue nations...

do you really believe the US wants to invest 2 trillion dollars to procure Iraq's oil??? That is idiotic, they could have taken that money and invested it in finding new fields or energy sources without the conflict... of course there is far more at stake...

do not be surprised when Iran makes their move in the years ahead...

excellent points
Killa4luv
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7/14/2006  5:39 PM
Posted by colorfl1:

do you really believe the US wants to invest 2 trillion dollars to procure Iraq's oil??? That is idiotic, they could have taken that money and invested it in finding new fields or energy sources without the conflict... of course there is far more at stake...
If you truly understood how the rich operate you wouldn't make these comments. Its about who pays and who profits.

The 2 trillin dollars being spent is tax money; our public dollars. The profits made from the war (construction & oil contracts) go to privately held corporations like Haliburton, ExxonMobil etc. It doesn't matter to them how much the war costs because its not their money, nor is it their children's lives on the line. The profit is theirs', all they had to do was cut in the current administration, which wasn't hard, Bush has always been an oil guy, and Cheney is still being paid by Haliburton (deferred compensation). Is that so hard to understand? This is not very difficult information to find.
Solace
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7/14/2006  5:42 PM
Killa, you make some very good arguments. With Iraq, I have very mixed feelings. When it comes to the decisions this country makes, it's hard to not be a little suspicious of the motivations sometimes. With Israel's situation, I think it's more clear cut.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Killa4luv
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7/14/2006  5:42 PM
Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.

--60 Minutes (5/12/96)
Solace
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7/14/2006  5:44 PM
Whoa...

Breaking News: The Israel Defense Forces says damaged warship was hit by drone rigged with explosives, Israeli newspaper Haaretz reports.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
simrud
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7/14/2006  7:02 PM
The whlole thing is about power. Hizbollah wants to remain in power, when there is no war, they are a gang and nothing more. When they fight Isreal they are national heroes. So they do everything in their power to bring on war. They don't care about anything, even their own people.

They deploy their forces in schools and hopsitals on purpose so its harder to hit them w/out civilian casualties, so when they happen, they can tout that as their propoganda.

However if you thinkg US is in Iraq for any other reason than oil, you are kiddin yourself. Its oil for those who funded Bushs elections.

And btw does anybody notice how all these things are happening all over the world rughly around the same time? I'm convinced somebody is playin the world markets. Money is behind eveything.

Isrealis just want to have a country, a dream of all jews around the world for thousands of years. Arabs have a dozen countries to themselves. Its that simple. When another wave of violence against the jews wil happen, and it will, at least we'll have a place to retreat to.

You can moralise all you want, but the fact of the matter is the Jewish state exists, and if you think anything short of nuclear war will bring to an end you are foolin yourself. A dream thousands of years old will not die w/out takin down at least the entire muslim middle east with it.

Muslim extrimists think they can faze Jews with martyrodm? We have been the martyr nation for thousands of yeras. Killin a few more of us will not deter us from anything. In the past all Jews have asked for while being massacred is one thing, and thats not to be saved, or justice, or even revenge. All we ever watned is to die with weapons in our hands takin as many of our eneimes down with us. Now that we have gotten that chance, the world better be scared. If Europeans or anybody else thinks they can destroy Israel, they should keep one thing in mind, Isreal has nukes. And if the situation is truly hopeless, then the only way Isreal will not exist is if the entire muslim world is a nuclear desert right along with it.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
Killa4luv
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7/14/2006  7:23 PM
Posted by Solace:

Killa, you make some very good arguments. With Iraq, I have very mixed feelings. When it comes to the decisions this country makes, it's hard to not be a little suspicious of the motivations sometimes. With Israel's situation, I think it's more clear cut.

I'm here to make you stop mixing your feelings on Iraq. The proof is all over the place, we want to believe that our gov't is doing the right thing,but they are definitely not. What is it you are unclear about?
BRIGGS
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7/14/2006  7:34 PM
wow. militant drone filled with explosives took out an israelean naval ship.

if i was president of us id have nuclear subs and naval ships ready to strike syria and iran with full power if they choose to start sending those things into iraq. shts hit the wall here folks i hope they dont draw us in, but that is their fckn motive--they WANT us to do something. so if we do, we have to do it VERY VERY hard. we have 150k troops sitting like lame dcks
RIP Crushalot😞
TemujinKnick
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7/14/2006  9:05 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by colorfl1:

do you really believe the US wants to invest 2 trillion dollars to procure Iraq's oil??? That is idiotic, they could have taken that money and invested it in finding new fields or energy sources without the conflict... of course there is far more at stake...
If you truly understood how the rich operate you wouldn't make these comments. Its about who pays and who profits.

The 2 trillin dollars being spent is tax money; our public dollars. The profits made from the war (construction & oil contracts) go to privately held corporations like Haliburton, ExxonMobil etc. It doesn't matter to them how much the war costs because its not their money, nor is it their children's lives on the line. The profit is theirs', all they had to do was cut in the current administration, which wasn't hard, Bush has always been an oil guy, and Cheney is still being paid by Haliburton (deferred compensation). Is that so hard to understand? This is not very difficult information to find.


But it's very difficult information to understand. You obviously don't.
nykshaknbake
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7/14/2006  9:45 PM
Put it this way...

If we played like the terroists and targeted civilian populations we would kill millions/day. You give the terroists nukes that's what they would do..yet you have this ridiculous comparison w/ a military that takes such great pains to avoid hurting civies and the terroists who use them for shields. If we were like the terroists, Iraq would have long since been depopulated as we nuked city after city to get the terrorists hiding there.
Posted by smackeddog:

So in order to erradicate terrorism its okay to kill an infinite number of civilians as long as each of those deaths is accidental? If the fight against terrorism ended up killing 5 million children would it not be barbaric because they got in they way of the real targets?

clorfl1- if during the night an army from another country 'accidentally' dropped a bomb on your house and killed your family and blew off your legs- would you honestly think "its okay, it was an accident!" or would you see it as a barbaric act?

The kidnapping of the two Israeli soldiers was horrible- I fear for them and their families. But in response israel bombs Lebanon and kills 50 people including 7 children. Why is that not a barabric act?

If you honestly don't see anything uncivilised about it then equip the 'terrorists' with a mighty top of the range army and I guaranatee overnight they would stop targetting civilians and carrying out suicide bombs etc.
nykshaknbake
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7/14/2006  9:47 PM
Isn't the population of Irag like 16 mill or so? You're telling me 1 million kids died out of that...I find it a little incredulous.
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by firefly:

Democratic countries dont target ordinary people on the street. Terrorists do.

tell that to the over 100,000 dead Iraqi and Afghani citizens who were killed by democratic bombs.

[Edited by - killa4luv on 07-14-2006 3:54 PM]

You can't really be calling those two things the same, are you? A suicide bombing is with the intent of killing civilians. A directed attack at terrorist headquarters is risky and poses the risk of collateral damage. I'm not saying that we're perfect in any way, but you can't refute his argument with what you just said.

Ok well how about with this argument:
When you bomb a water filtration plant, is this plant only supplying water to terrorists? The US did this in Iraq.

You enforce an embargo that doesn't let in medicine, and all kinds of other supplies that people need to live. Between 500,000 to 1,000,000 CHILDREN dies as a result of the embargos. This is a well known fact. When Clinton was pres. Madeline ALberight (his sec. of defense ) was on 60 minutes and asked if she thought a half a million Iraqi kids was too high a price to try to force Sadaam out. She said in a nutshell "yes we think the price is worth it."

These are facts. Destroying the infrastructure of a country hurts a society's weakes members; children, the elderly, and the sick. The U.S. did this in Iraq.

[Edited by - killa4luv on 07-14-2006 4:17 PM]
nykshaknbake
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7/14/2006  9:50 PM
I think we end up losing money on this one. ANd I think almost everyone predicted we would, so it'll about money is a pretty silly statement.
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by colorfl1:

It is a intricate issue... you cannot really believe taht US soldiers are risking their lives because they are trying to retain oil... they are doing it because the stabalization of the Middle East is intertwined with US security for the future...
If that makes you sleep better at night, fine. There is an aspect of what you are saying that is true, but you must remember, Iraq was quite stable prior to dessert storm 1. If you think the billion dollar profit grab isn't the #1 reason, you are truly naive.

arkrud
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7/14/2006  10:10 PM
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not meant push Japan to surrender.
It was done the scare the hell from Stalin and Soviets to stop their advance in Europe in Asia.
If US will not do this the Russia will capture all Europe and Japan.
In fact the Japanese armies in China were destroyed and surrender before the bombings in Japan as soon an Russian armies arrived from Europe. It was nothing that wood stop Soviets at this point. Stalin had 10 times more troops, tanks and artillery as all coalition troops in Europe. And they were veterans who fight the Nazi armies already for 5 years and destroyed the Germany war machine.


"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
TMat614
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7/14/2006  10:53 PM
Posted by arkrud:

The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not meant push Japan to surrender.
It was done the scare the hell from Stalin and Soviets to stop their advance in Europe in Asia.
If US will not do this the Russia will capture all Europe and Japan.
In fact the Japanese armies in China were destroyed and surrender before the bombings in Japan as soon an Russian armies arrived from Europe. It was nothing that wood stop Soviets at this point. Stalin had 10 times more troops, tanks and artillery as all coalition troops in Europe. And they were veterans who fight the Nazi armies already for 5 years and destroyed the Germany war machine.

Are you kidding?

during World War 2, the Soviets were our Allies. We trusted them, and when Germany was divided among the Allies in sections to rebuild it we gave The Soviets East Germany. Obviously, Germany went against what was expected, built the berlin wall and East Germany became Communist. If we were worried that the Soviets were going to advance into Europe, we wouldn't just hand them East Germany.
arkrud
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7/14/2006  11:15 PM
How else you can justify the Nuke bombing?
It was enough just to block supply to Japan main islands to let them slowly die.
They have no metal, no gas, not even enough food to feed themselves.
They were done.
Stalin was working on Nukes and was close... Soviets tested it in 1947.
This was the biggest race ever. And US show they made it in Japan.
There docs are now released in Russia that Stalin planed to advanced into France, Italy, and mainland China and all was scrapped the next few days after the Japan bombings. Then they signed the treaty and all UN stuff.
US shows to whole world how the HELL will break lose... may be we all are alive because of this ultimate sacrifice. May be the biggest sacrifice in the history of humane race…
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Killa4luv
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7/14/2006  11:37 PM
Posted by nykshaknbake:

I think we end up losing money on this one. ANd I think almost everyone predicted we would, so it'll about money is a pretty silly statement.
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by colorfl1:

It is a intricate issue... you cannot really believe taht US soldiers are risking their lives because they are trying to retain oil... they are doing it because the stabalization of the Middle East is intertwined with US security for the future...
If that makes you sleep better at night, fine. There is an aspect of what you are saying that is true, but you must remember, Iraq was quite stable prior to dessert storm 1. If you think the billion dollar profit grab isn't the #1 reason, you are truly naive.
why don't you read the entire thread and respond to my more detailed posts, like the one where the sec. of defense admits to killing half a million children.
BRIGGS
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7/15/2006  12:06 AM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by nykshaknbake:

I think we end up losing money on this one. ANd I think almost everyone predicted we would, so it'll about money is a pretty silly statement.
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by colorfl1:

It is a intricate issue... you cannot really believe taht US soldiers are risking their lives because they are trying to retain oil... they are doing it because the stabalization of the Middle East is intertwined with US security for the future...
If that makes you sleep better at night, fine. There is an aspect of what you are saying that is true, but you must remember, Iraq was quite stable prior to dessert storm 1. If you think the billion dollar profit grab isn't the #1 reason, you are truly naive.
why don't you read the entire thread and respond to my more detailed posts, like the one where the sec. of defense admits to killing half a million children.

war in iraq strategically stupid--couldve completed shock and awe---found saddam --- end mission

BUT Bush is RIGHT about these 3rd world countries---they would nuke us in a nano-second if THEY COULD. Forget about Iranian children--think about your own. Like I said before you want peace move to Iceland--I think longevity is higher there and the women are :>)
RIP Crushalot😞
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