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Marbury Loves Larry Brown....Period
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BlueSeats
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6/18/2006  8:29 PM
Posted by oohah:
Sounds good, but lets face it, none of us are really sure of anything here.

Okay, let me rephrase:

I'll bet if any player or LB want to say nothing but positive remarks about what they gained from the last season and how it is going to help them in the future and how much they love NYC, there is no problem, gag order or no gag order. It is the discussing of private team business and/or trashing the team and organization that is off limits.

oohah

I don't know, it's not like Marbury is saying Larry made him a better basketball player and he'll be a better Knick for it. It's all vague metaphysical hooey.

I'm pretty sure if Brown was saying this was the best year of his life, his "mind was freed", this was all a big test which he passed, but he has "no comment" on whether Marbury was right for this team etc. the Brown bashers would be pretty cynical about that too.

As would I.

But Marbury always gets his own set of rules.



[Edited by - BlueSeats on 06-18-2006 8:30 PM]
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djsunyc
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6/18/2006  8:30 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

DJ...I don't even know who you are anymore...why are you such a marbury basher? It's unreadable at this point.

when did you become a turncoat?


this is me. as you can, i ain't happy...



it's quite simple. i do not like stephon marbury and i am not a fan of his. i think his presence on the team hurts us more than it helps. and i am upset with isiah thomas bringing him in and "empowering" him. before he became a knick, i was NEVER a fan of his. but i really wasn't an online creature those days. and i felt we overpaid for him in that deal. i gave him the benefit of the doubt as a fan and hoped he would help us. and i have been left disappointed. is this mess all his fault? of course not. but he is not part of the solution, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION. go look at posts from the very beginning of the season. killa and i would go back and forth about steph. i wanted him gone and this was all before the sh t hit the fan in february.
Nalod
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6/18/2006  8:33 PM
Marbs has got to stop taking acid before he speaks!

Or.....

Dido is in his head.

Lets bring them all back for another go around!

Larry said it was his best season ever too. His bladder says otherwise.

Isiah said the popcorn is fine!
oohah
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6/18/2006  8:35 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by oohah:
Sounds good, but lets face it, none of us are really sure of anything here.

Okay, let me rephrase:

I'll bet if any player or LB want to say nothing but positive remarks about what they gained from the last season and how it is going to help them in the future and how much they love NYC, there is no problem, gag order or no gag order. It is the discussing of private team business and/or trashing the team and organization that is off limits.

oohah

I don't know, it's not like Marbury is saying Larry made him a better basketball player and he'll be a better Knick for it. It's all vague metaphysical hooey.

I'm pretty sure if Brown was saying this was the best year of his life, his "mind was freed", this was all a big test which he passed, but he has "no comment" on whether Marbury was right for this team etc. the Brown bashers would be pretty cynical about that too.

As would I.

But Marbury always gets his own set of rules.



[Edited by - BlueSeats on 06-18-2006 8:30 PM]

I don't claim he is being honest, but he is toeing the line (Not towing!) and saying positive things.

Here are some para-quotes:

Brown several weeks ago: "I feel like a dead man walking"

Marbury Yesterday: "I love Brown and he made me a better player and we will be better next year for it"

See the difference? Please tell me you do, blue, PLEASE!!!

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
BlueSeats
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6/18/2006  8:41 PM

Posted by oohah:

I don't claim he is being honest, but he is toeing the line (Not towing!) and saying positive things.

Here are some para-quotes:

Brown several weeks ago: "I feel like a dead man walking"

Marbury Yesterday: "I love Brown and he made me a better player and we will be better next year for it"

See the difference? Please tell me you do, blue, PLEASE!!!

oohah

Seriously, Brown's "deadman walking" and Marbury's "I want to die a Knick" are simply different expressions of the same sentiment of their future's uncertainty.

The real difference is Isiah's response. When Marbury was rumored to be shopped a year ago brown cursed the rumors and told us he's "not in play and never will be in play." But when reporters recently asked about Brown's status Isiah raised his palms and shrugged his shoulders.




[Edited by - BlueSeats on 06-18-2006 8:43 PM]
djsunyc
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6/18/2006  8:42 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by oohah:

I don't claim he is being honest, but he is toeing the line (Not towing!) and saying positive things.

Here are some para-quotes:

Brown several weeks ago: "I feel like a dead man walking"

Marbury Yesterday: "I love Brown and he made me a better player and we will be better next year for it"

See the difference? Please tell me you do, blue, PLEASE!!!

oohah

Seriously, Brown's "deadman walking" and Marbury's "I want to die a Knick" are simply different expressions of the same sentiment.

The real difference is Isiah's response. When Marbury was rumored to be shopped a year ago brown cursed the rumors and told us he's "not in play and never will be in play." But when reporters recently asked about Brown's status Isiah raised his palms and shrugged his shoulders.

the exact words isiah used when the dalembert deal came up was "we don't roll like that." and he was pissed when confronted with those rumors.
oohah
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6/18/2006  8:46 PM
Seriously, Brown's "deadman walking" and Marbury's "I want to die a Knick" are simply different expressions of the same sentiment of their future's uncertainty.

I don't understand that it is the same sentiment, but let's say it is. There are many many ways of saying something and the way you say it can color it positive or negative.

"Dead man walking" is unquestionably negative as were the other Brown quotes before they clamped on him. "I want to die a Knick" is unquestionably positive (Describes loyalty.), as were the other Marbury quotes from this article.

There is a difference.

The real difference is Isiah's response. When Marbury was rumored to be shopped a year ago brown cursed the rumors and told us he's "not in play and never will be in play." But when reporters recently asked about Brown's status Isiah raised his palms and shrugged his shoulders.

No, the real difference is that Brown is a Dead Man Walking. That's why Isiah shrugged. If Dolan insisted that Marbury is gone, Marbury would get the IT shrug with the quickness.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 06-18-2006 8:48 PM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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6/18/2006  8:47 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
the exact words isiah used when the dalembert deal came up was "we don't roll like that." and he was pissed when confronted with those rumors.


July 7, 2005

Thomas Denies the Knicks Are Shopping Marbury
By HOWARD BECK

LAS VEGAS, July 6 - Isiah Thomas's tone was sharp and his stare icy Wednesday as he angrily denied reports that he might trade Stephon Marbury, the Knicks' star guard.

Thomas, the team president, was frequently profane in his first public comments on the speculation surrounding Marbury, which began with an article in The New York Times on Saturday. A Western Conference team executive and a player agent had independently said that Marbury was being made available by the Knicks.

Similar reports have since surfaced in other news media outlets, all citing unnamed team executives around the league.

"That is so far from the truth," Thomas said testily, a few minutes after the Knicks played their first summer league game here. "And I'm ashamed for you guys that you even have to ask me that, because there is absolutely no truth to it at all."

Thomas and Marbury are next-door neighbors in Westchester County, and are known to be close. Marbury, a former All-Star, was Thomas's first major acquisition after he took over operations 19 months ago.

Asked if he needed to reassure Marbury about his future, Thomas said: "He and I and all of New York City know where I stand with him and where he stands with me. In my neighborhood, we say, 'We don't get down like that. We don't roll like that.' "

Trading Marbury is not as unthinkable as it sounds, however. Thomas has recently admitted that the Knicks are in a rebuilding mode, and he is committed to making the roster younger and more athletic.

Marbury is only 28, but he is heading into his 10th season and last season struggled with sore knees. He does not fit in with the younger, up-tempo lineup that Thomas has promoted. The Knicks' other two point guards, the veteran Jamal Crawford and the rookie Nate Robinson, are better fits for a running team. Marbury is also owed about $77 million over the next four years, making him a salary-cap burden and a difficult player to move.

But other team executives said that they expected the Knicks to try.

"Tell the G.M., whoever the G.M. is, to put his name on it," Thomas said, referring to the reports in the news media.

In April, after the Knicks finished a 33-49 season, the question of trading Marbury was posed to Thomas. "The way I feel right now I'd trade my mother if the right deal came along," he said

Reminded of that comment on Wednesday, Thomas said: "I am for the New York Knicks. There's my wife and my kids, and right now, there's the New York Knicks. I've even put the Knicks before sometimes God on Sunday and my mom sometimes. I'm down for the Knicks. We've got guys who I like a lot. We're on the right track, and we're moving in the right direction."

Marbury, Thomas said, has "never been in play," and the Knicks will "never put him in play."

Thomas ended his brief session with reporters with a more profane version of those sentiments, then concluded jokingly: "I'm done. That's my Bob Knight speech for the day."
BlueSeats
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6/18/2006  9:05 PM
Posted by oohah:
Seriously, Brown's "deadman walking" and Marbury's "I want to die a Knick" are simply different expressions of the same sentiment of their future's uncertainty.

I don't understand that it is the same sentiment, but let's say it is. There are many many ways of saying something and the way you say it can color it positive or negative.

"Dead man walking" is unquestionably negative as were the other Brown quotes before the clamped on him, and "I want to die a Knick" is unquestionably positive (Describes loyalty.), as were the other Marbury quotes from this article.

There is a difference.

The real difference is Isiah's response. When Marbury was rumored to be shopped a year ago brown cursed the rumors and told us he's "not in play and never will be in play." But when reporters recently asked about Brown's status Isiah raised his palms and shrugged his shoulders.

No, the real difference is that Brown is a Dead Man Walking. That's why Isiah shrugged. If Dolan insisted that Marbury is gone, Marbuiry would get the IT shrug with the quickness.

oohah

You're not wrong, but Brown did say (paraphrasing) this was his "dream job", they were gonna "turn this around" and "get it right" and that he knows Steph is capable of what he asks of him and that he wants him here next year.

It's the uncertainty of his future that is the cause of "deadman walking."

Lets recall that when isiah was saying publicly that is Steph couldn't adapt to the coach he'd be traded (thus putting his future in question) Steph chose to take the offensive against brown in the media.

So long as coaches remain unempowered and we have no viable franchise player or consistency of direction (ie, bad management) everybody's a possible squawker.

Yes, even guys like Lenny Wilkens, Dekembe Mutombo, Mo Taylor and Steve Francis -- believe it or not.
oohah
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6/18/2006  9:13 PM
You're not wrong, but Brown did say (paraphrasing) this was his "dream job", they were gonna "turn this around" and "get it right" and that he knows Steph is capable of what he asks of him and that he wants him here next year.

It's the uncertainty of his future that is the cause of "deadman walking."

Lets recall that when isiah was saying publicly that is Steph couldn't adapt to the coach he'd be traded (thus putting his future in question) Steph chose to take the offensive against brown in the media.

So long as coaches remain unempowered and we have no viable franchise player or consistency of direction (ie, bad management) everybody's a possible squawker.

Yes, even guys like Lenny Wilkens, Dekembe Mutombo, Mo Taylor and Steve Francis -- believe it or not.

I'm really not looking at it from a perspective of their relationships with IT. But as you have pointed out, IT backed off of his "Marbury will never be in play" stance to publicly stating that he would trade Marbury if he needed to...for LB.

What is a happening here has most to do with how Brown offended Dolan, not Marbury, IT, or anyone else.

Just speculating, maybe Brown made his comments about turning it around because he realized he went too far and he was trying to save his ass? And Marbury's motivations with his comments are probably similar, but I don't believe he spit in Dolans face recently.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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6/18/2006  9:15 PM
sorry dj, I must have confused you with someone else, okie dokie, continue to bash baby...I like that it's beginning to whittle down to the same 4 or 5, where at one time it seemed everyone was anti marbury.

It's good to be back to being a knick fan...if it weren't for this brown misery, everyone would be applauding marbury's statements of the last week, but as everyone has been saying, it's been LB's goal to divide and conquer, and he almost succeeded (crowd booing, UK highlighting anti marbury sentiments on the homepage no less, etc.), just the fact that we are acting like Philly fans and devouring our own and believing what we read in the papers indicates that he almost succeeeded.

BUT...

This ain't philly, this is new york. And in new york, we don't dog our own players, especially the home grown players.

So, you must not be from new york.

Brown is from new york, and I don't dog on him, I didn't support his methods, but hey, it's business to him, and in business, he did everything the gordan decko (wall street, may have spelled his name wrong, but famous quote "greed is good", did you see his suits, he tried to be riley)...get involved with a grin, get power, tear it down and sell the parts for a profit. (he had qrich fooled and he SUCKED this year)

everything marbury has allegedly done to the team is hearsay...he has a bad attitude? He's no choir boy? Come on man...he plays ball and is our best player, there aren't many out there that are better at the point than him, and those that are aren't going to be coming here.

So love your knicks, love your players, stop being such a downer.

Or, keep being a downer...fish, BS and mck1 need the company (but mck1 has been kind of positive recently, so maybe not mck1)

BS has always been BS (bashing steph), and isles hates zeke. Fish lashes out randomly at the flavor of the week. (sometimes players, sometimes posters, sometimes just me)

dj used to be the guy that posted from his seats.

But now DJ has joined the crowd that will be wondering what went right next year and have nothing positive to say other than.

"the only reason the knicks are good is because they got larry brown for that year"

Well, I'll take what I can get.

[Edited by - rvhoss on 06-18-2006 9:21 PM]
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djsunyc
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6/18/2006  9:27 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

So love your knicks, love your players, stop being such a downer.

Or, keep being a downer...fish, BS and mck1 need the company (but mck1 has been kind of positive recently, so maybe not mck1)

it's OK to not like how your favorite team is operating and has been operating for the last 6 years. were you saying the same thing in 2002/2003 under layden? as a fan, it's your right not to just blindly accept whatever a team gives you as a product. we'll all be watching the games but a hot november or a hot january isn't going to change my opinion. i need to see some tangible results over a long term period to see that this team is headed in the right direction. making a 2nd half run to the playoffs in 2004 meant NOTHING in terms of the real direction this franchise was moving. over the past 4 years, the record speaks for itself.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 06-18-2006 9:28 PM]
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6/18/2006  9:31 PM
Posted by oohah:


I'm really not looking at it from a perspective of their relationships with IT. But as you have pointed out, IT backed off of his "Marbury will never be in play" stance to publicly stating that he would trade Marbury if he needed to...for LB.

What is a happening here has most to do with how Brown offended Dolan, not Marbury, IT, or anyone else.

Agreed.
Just speculating, maybe Brown made his comments about turning it around because he realized he went too far and he was trying to save his ass?

I happen to think Brown thinks if Isiah works with him they CAN turn this thing (losing) around. When hasn't he?


[/quote]And Marbury's motivations with his comments are probably similar, but I don't believe he spit in Dolans face recently.
[/quote]

The difference is Dolan hasn't spat in Marbury's face recently. But I doubt Steph would handle it very well if he did. And please don't tell me Steph never spat in Dolan's face. When Marbury was going at Brown in the press he too was being told to cut it out, or so we've been told.
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6/18/2006  9:41 PM
I root for wins, any team can win, I'm from the bad news bears, longest yard, fish that saved pittsburgh philosophy that you can catch lightning in a bottle.

The knicks for the lst 25 years have been built on that, we came close twice in my lifetime.

I'm a Cowboy and Yankee fan and they both had their periods of mediocrity, but I still rooted for tony dorsett (well, he won, so I'll say Danny White) and Donny Mattingly even though they never won anything and only over achieved their way to losing to the best team.

I never wondered how much the players were making, or for that matter, knew who the GM was, I liked the theatre.

Fantasy Basketball and the internet has actually killed some of your love for the game...how the franchise is run? Who effing cares.
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djsunyc
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6/18/2006  9:46 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

Fantasy Basketball and the internet has actually killed some of your love for the game...how the franchise is run? Who effing cares.

as a yankee fan, did you not see the difference in how george steinbrenner ran the team in the 80's and then in the 90's?

there was a SIGNIFICANT difference in philosophies and the end result is MULTIPLE championships.

my favorite bball player of all time was donnie baseball but that doesn't mean i knew year after year we weren't going to do anything special. it wasn't until george gave stick micheal and buck the keys and let them drive the car did the yankees fortunes begin to change.
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6/18/2006  9:55 PM
and they were calling for george to sell the team then as well with his revolving managers and aging stars and nameless supporting cast.

I seem to remember his sticking to youth that brought the yankees over the top (jeter, etc)
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6/18/2006  10:25 PM
I happen to think Brown thinks if Isiah works with him they CAN turn this thing (losing) around. When hasn't he?

http://basketball-reference.com/coaches/brownla01c.html

You'll see that Carolina got worse, and Denver got worse every year.

The difference is Dolan hasn't spat in Marbury's face recently. But I doubt Steph would handle it very well if he did. And please don't tell me Steph never spat in Dolan's face. When Marbury was going at Brown in the press he too was being told to cut it out, or so we've been told.

When did Dolan spit in Brown's face? I don't know how Steph would handle it...but he took multiple Brown spittings before he replied. And I don't see that Marbury spit in Dolan's face either. He simply said that he was tired of being maligned in the press. Now if you want to call that spitting fine, but I don't see it that way, and apparently neither does Dolan. However notice how quickly Marbury changed his tune after he was presumably warned, and he has been toeing the company line ever since.

I would say that Marbury was more respectful of his employer than Brown was this season.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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6/18/2006  10:36 PM
Posted by Nalod:

Steph sounds like he is just having his 19th nervous break down.

"I love Larry!"

Sitcom Idea in the works!

Knicks are a weird group these days.

True. When Marbury and Brown was going through their public spat. Thomas asked Brown what actions does he want to take with Marbury. Fine him, suspend him or both. Brown's response. 'Neither, I am coaching him.' Everybody is a Jedi Master these days. Many on this board don't believe Brown's purpose was to win games last year. Something about breaking down and rebuilding. More parables. Real Ying Yan stuff. I thought this was basketball not philosophy 101.
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6/19/2006  12:05 AM
Posted by oohah:
I happen to think Brown thinks if Isiah works with him they CAN turn this thing (losing) around. When hasn't he?

http://basketball-reference.com/coaches/brownla01c.html

You'll see that Carolina got worse, and Denver got worse every year.


I don't agree with your characterizations. You have to look at where they were BEFORE him.

The '72 Carolina won 35 games under Tom Meschery. The '73 team won 57 games under Brown. That's "turning it around." The '74 team won 47 under Brown and the '75 team won 32 games under Bob MacKinnon. So he wins 57 and 47 sandwhiched between 35 and 32 win seasons without him.

This is your example of him failing???

So he leaves there and goes to Denver, your next example of failing to turn it around.

The 74 Denver team won 37 games under Alex Hannum. The '75 team won 65 under Brown. Denver has winning seasons all 5 years under Brown and then win 30 games under Donnie Walsh.

This is another example of failure??? This is the BEST you can do in a 30 year career?

With enemies like you, who needs friends?



When did Dolan spit in Brown's face?

Justified or not, that's what most consider Dolan to have been doing to brown for the last month.
I don't know how Steph would handle it...but he took multiple Brown spittings before he replied.

Like what? Him saying "We don't have heads out there to take pressure off the kids?" That's spitting in Marbury's face? It doesn't mention Marbury or point guard, and it was absolutely true. Our starters were not able to close games and the kids were relied on to bring us back into and/or finish games. In the pressure cooker that is NY, and trying desperately to make the playoffs, that's undue pressure on a guy like Nate Robinson who's not only learning the NBA game but playing out of his natural SG position. Ditto Lee adjusting from PF to SF and Frye adjusting from Center to PF.
And I don't see that Marbury spit in Dolan's face either. He simply said that he was tired of being maligned in the press.

That's not at all true. He said that and then went on the offensive himself. He "devalued" the coach. And we were told that he and Brown were both told to stop and neither did until Larry called Steph in for a short meeting where he told Steph to just do what he asks whether he sees the value or not and Steph told us proudly that he didn't tell Larry if he would or wouldn't, but that what Larry said ended it all.

So it was Larry who ended it.
Now if you want to call that spitting fine, but I don't see it that way, and apparently neither does Dolan. However notice how quickly Marbury changed his tune after he was presumably warned, and he has been toeing the company line ever since.

See above.
I would say that Marbury was more respectful of his employer than Brown was this season.

I don't think coming into camp saying he's not going to change his game and rolling his eyes from the first day of training camp is respectful of his coach, GM or owner. I don't think dragging his feet in resistance and dogging a game to make a point is respectful of his coach, GM, or owner. I don't think telling Wilkens to stuff his coaching was respectful of his coach, GM or owner. I don't think having to be told to play defense by his GM was respectful of his coach, GM or owner. I don't think having to be spoken to about his piss-poor body language by both his coach and GM was respectful of his coach, GM or owner. I don't think polarizing a locker-room to the extent that none of his teammates like him was respectful of his coach, GM or owner. I don't think engaging his coach in a media brawl against his owner's wishes was respectful of his coach, GM or owner. Etc. etc...

----------

Look, we're never gonna agree on this. You're a fan of guys like Francis, Walker and Marbury and I'm not.

You probably also prefer a different kind of coach than me too. I wanted a hardazz for this squad. I wanted a no nonsense, buttoned down guy with more "juice" than Marbury. Guys like Brown, Riley, Sloan, Popovich, Skiles, Van Gundy, Fratello, Carlisle, etc. I consider all of them good coaches in spite of their sometimes abrasive demeanor, and many of them go through periods of "losing their players." But it's worth it, they teach structure and fundamentals - things these guys lack.

I don't know who you'd like but I'd imagine they'd be of the Flip, Bickerstaff, Doc Rivers, Eddie Jordan variety. Which is fine.

The point is when you put the kind of coach I like in charge of these guys who I don't like I expect a clash of egos and some struggle. But the picture you guys try to paint of Brown seems to be as a guy who's so vile he's incapable of motivating players or winning, but his history suggests that is anything but true.

And as much as much as you or I might try to make this about Brown and Marbury, you make the point we can't forget Dolan's role in this. The same guy who fired Marv Albert for speaking with integrity instead of like a goober homer. But I guess you'd tell me the firing was justified because Marv was "spitting in Dolan's face."

Marv was good enough for the franchise for ~40 years, but not good enough for Dolan the Emperor.

Dolan is the Emperor in his new clothes and he fires anyone who doesn't tell him they look splendid.
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6/19/2006  1:03 AM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by Nalod:

Steph sounds like he is just having his 19th nervous break down.

"I love Larry!"

Sitcom Idea in the works!

Knicks are a weird group these days.

True. When Marbury and Brown was going through their public spat. Thomas asked Brown what actions does he want to take with Marbury. Fine him, suspend him or both. Brown's response. 'Neither, I am coaching him.' Everybody is a Jedi Master these days. Many on this board don't believe Brown's purpose was to win games last year. Something about breaking down and rebuilding. More parables. Real Ying Yan stuff. I thought this was basketball not philosophy 101.
when your twisting the truth, you've gotts talk like that. Otherwise you'd be forced to admit Brown sucked. But mainly they want to say that Brown did a bad job, was tearing down to rebuild, and that of course: wins don't matter. Not when theyre Larry Brown Loses. LB's loses don't count.

I'm with Scott Skiles: I'm sure Larry Brown invented the game of basketball.
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