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newyorknewyork
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6/16/2006  5:52 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by Bippity10:

newyork: When is it the right season to start building for long term success instead of doing everything we can to make the 8th seed?

Disclaimer: This question has nothing to do with LB and everything to do with the next 2 or 3 moves our GM makes

Any season that you don't have to give another team an unprotected lottery pick.

I would have trusted Larry Brown to have made the 8th seed, but not have gotten fooled into thinking we were one player away. And stuck to the plan to just make playoffs untill we are out of cap hell. THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE PLAN WITH ISIAH AND BROWN. And Brown could have kept Isiah in check. With Brown actually coaching to win and winning some games. Isiah would have given more power to Browns view in how the roster should be. We could make small moves to mold a contender down the road. But nothing that added long term salary. Then after these contracts of untradable players are gone we could then be in position and have the flexability to get Brown everything he needs to make us a contender.

you mean when he's coaching from a wheelchair? or did you mean larry brown junior b/c cap room ain't happening til 2009 at the earliest.

i don't know what happened this season but it's obvious to everyone that lb did what he did for a reason. what that reason is, i'm not sure but he did it for a reason.

maybe he did it b/c he wanted full power?
maybe he did it b/c isiah renegged on some promises?

who knows. but it's now june. make a decision - either keep him or dump him.

what would i do? for me there are two options: 1. fire isiah AND lb or 2. give lb the keys and let him drive but under no circumstances should isiah be allowed to remain with lb gone.

But was what LB did benificial to the Knicks? Brown wants athletic, unselfish, defensive minded players. Yea like teams are just going to give that to us for our known "overpaid", "selfish", "castoffs". Give me names of players avaiable that fit brown mold that we could have traded for using the players we needed to get rid of? Penny for Ratliff is the only thing I can think of. But Penny is an expiring contract so he wasn't really a bother. In order to get what LB wants most likley would have to come down to the draft, and smaller free agent signings. But in order to get rid of the contracts we do have we would probably just have to ride them out. So why not make the best out of that situation win some games but keep the task at hand in mind.

Did Isiah go back on his word because he loved his players more than LB. Or was it that Isiah couldn't get any deals in the knicks favor?? Then with LB doing what he was doing knicks decided that Brown wasn't going to compromise until they get where they needed to be to satisfy him. So they turned on him. Did LB not agree to the situation as well. Did Isiah just tell LB everything he wanted to hear or was there an agreement on the situation? Like yoy say we don't know. But yet you seem to side with the thought that Isiah just told LB everything he wanted to here to get him then just renegged because he couldn't come the to grips with the thought of trading these players he loves so much.
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newyorknewyork
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6/16/2006  6:12 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by Bippity10:

newyork: When is it the right season to start building for long term success instead of doing everything we can to make the 8th seed?

Disclaimer: This question has nothing to do with LB and everything to do with the next 2 or 3 moves our GM makes

Any season that you don't have to give another team an unprotected lottery pick.

I would have trusted Larry Brown to have made the 8th seed, but not have gotten fooled into thinking we were one player away. And stuck to the plan to just make playoffs untill we are out of cap hell. THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE PLAN WITH ISIAH AND BROWN. And Brown could have kept Isiah in check. With Brown actually coaching to win and winning some games. Isiah would have given more power to Browns view in how the roster should be. We could make small moves to mold a contender down the road. But nothing that added long term salary. Then after these contracts of untradable players are gone we could then be in position and have the flexability to get Brown everything he needs to make us a contender.

NewYork under normal circumstances I would agree with you. But we have to pay attention to what is going on for the past few years. Every time we play for a playoff spot and wait for our contracts to run out, what happens? They trade those contracts that are running out and add more salary. It's a big lie. Going by history they will jettison D.Lee and Frye in an instant to try to get another "star" to add to the roster.

It's this mentality that we are trying to change. It's this mentality that we must target instead of figuring out which coach or player is to blame ofr our losses. Eveyr year it is who is to blame, never how can we build. Let's come up with an organizational philosophy, hire a coach that fits that philosophy and then stick with and support him regardless of whether we make the playoffs or not. We are making all our decisions based on whether we can be mediocre enough to make the 8th seed, while we wait for our contracts to run out(theoretically of course)

[Edited by - Bippity10 on 06-16-2006 3:38 PM]

But if it was more salary with young guys that will win with Larry Brown then its not that big of a deal right. The problem is having long term contracts of guys that don't fit Larry Brown. If Larry Brown wanted to keep Frye & Lee then that would have been done.

My thoughts are they had a vision to make the knicks more exciting. I don't know if that vision was exactly talored to win a championship though. When Larry Brown became available they had to change the plan. They weren't in position to change the roster to LBs liking just yet. But he was to good a coach to pass up. They figured they could lock LB up now have him coach this current group to the playoffs and mold the team to his liking latter on. But LB doing what he did completely caught them off guard and they felt disrespected. Our managment team is bad. But they aren't as stupid as we make them out to be. It all comes down to a lack of communication to me from both sides.
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djsunyc
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6/16/2006  6:34 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by Bippity10:

newyork: When is it the right season to start building for long term success instead of doing everything we can to make the 8th seed?

Disclaimer: This question has nothing to do with LB and everything to do with the next 2 or 3 moves our GM makes

Any season that you don't have to give another team an unprotected lottery pick.

I would have trusted Larry Brown to have made the 8th seed, but not have gotten fooled into thinking we were one player away. And stuck to the plan to just make playoffs untill we are out of cap hell. THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE PLAN WITH ISIAH AND BROWN. And Brown could have kept Isiah in check. With Brown actually coaching to win and winning some games. Isiah would have given more power to Browns view in how the roster should be. We could make small moves to mold a contender down the road. But nothing that added long term salary. Then after these contracts of untradable players are gone we could then be in position and have the flexability to get Brown everything he needs to make us a contender.

you mean when he's coaching from a wheelchair? or did you mean larry brown junior b/c cap room ain't happening til 2009 at the earliest.

i don't know what happened this season but it's obvious to everyone that lb did what he did for a reason. what that reason is, i'm not sure but he did it for a reason.

maybe he did it b/c he wanted full power?
maybe he did it b/c isiah renegged on some promises?

who knows. but it's now june. make a decision - either keep him or dump him.

what would i do? for me there are two options: 1. fire isiah AND lb or 2. give lb the keys and let him drive but under no circumstances should isiah be allowed to remain with lb gone.

But was what LB did benificial to the Knicks? Brown wants athletic, unselfish, defensive minded players. Yea like teams are just going to give that to us for our known "overpaid", "selfish", "castoffs". Give me names of players avaiable that fit brown mold that we could have traded for using the players we needed to get rid of? Penny for Ratliff is the only thing I can think of. But Penny is an expiring contract so he wasn't really a bother. In order to get what LB wants most likley would have to come down to the draft, and smaller free agent signings. But in order to get rid of the contracts we do have we would probably just have to ride them out. So why not make the best out of that situation win some games but keep the task at hand in mind.

Did Isiah go back on his word because he loved his players more than LB. Or was it that Isiah couldn't get any deals in the knicks favor?? Then with LB doing what he was doing knicks decided that Brown wasn't going to compromise until they get where they needed to be to satisfy him. So they turned on him. Did LB not agree to the situation as well. Did Isiah just tell LB everything he wanted to hear or was there an agreement on the situation? Like yoy say we don't know. But yet you seem to side with the thought that Isiah just told LB everything he wanted to here to get him then just renegged because he couldn't come the to grips with the thought of trading these players he loves so much.

again, i don't know.

i have more confidence in lb fixing this than any other party involved right now. i think if you give him the keys, he will turn this around like he did in philly. he knows what it takes and he knows what he's doing. and i think he really does care about making players better b/c he never stopped coaching this season in terms of individual player growth.

but whatever he tried to do this season for whatever reason didn't work b/c he's about to get fired.

my final stance is:

1. BOTH isiah and lb should get canned or
2. keep lb and give him the keys

but what makes this discussion great is the both you AND i are correct b/c these are our opinions and our opinions are always right...even if you're wrong and i'm right
newyorknewyork
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6/16/2006  7:54 PM
The difference between me and you is I make it look good.
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Bonn1997
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6/16/2006  7:58 PM
i have more confidence in lb fixing this than any other party involved right now.
What has he done in orange and blue to give you that confidence? I assume nothing and your comment is based on what he accomplished when he was younger and had good veteran rosters.
holfresh
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6/16/2006  8:31 PM
I have no confidence that Brown can be an effective GM and Coach and frankly don't want to see that experiment here..The players on his radar just simply scare me and I can't wait for Dolan to end this most unholy union....He got lucky in Philly with Iverson being a once in a 20 year player and a weak eastern conference...Reference by their one Championship appearance and hasn't been close since...Yet we are looking for the same results here, even if it means sinking us further into salary cap hell...Lots of posters here think that having Larry means that a foundation and a legacy will be built...No place has Larry coached has the team continued winning because of his teachings after he leaves...I laugh everytime I read that "change the culture" spiel....

[Edited by - holfresh on 06-16-2006 8:33 PM]
BasketballJones
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6/16/2006  8:42 PM
I don't understand why people don't like Brown. He's a lovable old coot.

So he tanked the season and sapped the players cofidence in an attempt to undermine Isiah's position. Was that so wrong? And he begged Isiah to bring in Jalen Rose and Steve Francis, then dissed them. Was that a bad thing? I don't get it.
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Bobby
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6/16/2006  9:12 PM
(spin)if brown tanked the season did chicago offer incentives for better draft pick or......or does chicago trade their # 2 pick + ben gordon to ny for ???
"Like they always say, New York is the Mecca of basketball,"I read that in Michael Jordan books my whole life and I played here in the Big East tournament, so it's always fun to play in the Mecca of basketball."---Rip Hamilton
Bonn1997
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6/16/2006  10:04 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:

I don't understand why people don't like Brown. He's a lovable old coot.

So he tanked the season and sapped the players cofidence in an attempt to undermine Isiah's position. Was that so wrong? And he begged Isiah to bring in Jalen Rose and Steve Francis, then dissed them. Was that a bad thing? I don't get it.
Big LOL! I'm almost tempted to make that my signature!

Nalod
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6/16/2006  10:57 PM
Larry trying to overthrow the palace?

The paranoid consipiricy thing is far out.

Larry tanked on purpose? For every crime there must be a motive.

And if Dolan and Isiah backed out of their promises, then pay the man his money and set him free. If Larry protested then its justified.

And if you think Dolan/Isiah gives two $hits and a Phuch about the fans, then delusional be it those who think it.

Marbury is plain evil. Isiah hitched his horse to the wrong wagon.
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6/16/2006  11:24 PM
Posted by holfresh:



Everything that Brown did this season says he tanked the season for a planned coup...You just refuse see the hand writing on the wall...You need to see it in writing and sealed with Brown's blood to believe it...

I saw the condition of the team from the year prior. I saw the bottom fall out on a HOF coach with him deciding 1 year was too much. I saw them go 17-39. I know for a fact the chemistry was crap that year. I know Sweetney considered it a rare accomplishment to not get in one fight with his teammates. I know this year guys came into camp out of shape, injured and with coachability problems. I know the star player has a relationship with the GM that many players found unsettling. I've witnessed the GM struggle to empower his coaches. I've read one of Brown's assistants say that Isiah undermined Brown with the players early in the season. I don't think it's a coincidence that I saw Marbury become emboldened to publicly challenge his coach with insolence. I heard players complain that they're all just "meat" and "assets." I've heard that our star player was disliked by all of his teammates and had to hide from one.

It goes on and on. But of course you'll never see all that unless it's written in Isiah's blood.

Have you given any thought to why his methods were different and more extreme here than say in Detroit? Any possibility the caliber and composition of the team had anything to do with it?

Brown is reverd for his coaching ability..Think about this, Dolan is willing to pay him 40 mil to get lost...It's the second consecutive year an owner just wants him gone..Davidson paid him 7 mil to leave, think about that...

Oh brother, please don't tell me you think Brown's bball acumen is based on what floats Dolan's boat.

If Dolan and isiah are so smart and brown is so bad why did they hire him at all, never mind make him the highest paid coach in history?

It might be because Isiah trusted Brown more than the sanctimonious Mr Davidson, and maybe rightly so:


By Jason Whitlock
Special to Page 2


To appreciate this column, you're going to have to first acknowledge you've been misled about what's really been transpiring between the Detroit Pistons and Larry Brown.

You think this sorry soap opera is another tale about Brown's wanderlust and double-dealing. Maybe you think it's a riff about his ailing body.

You're wrong.

Larry's history has played a role in this mess. But to understand how a team with back-to-back Finals appearances is likely to be playing next season for its third coach in four years, the truly enlightening factor is the Pistons' history.

Pistons owner Bill Davidson should share the blame for the turmoil in Detroit.
Pistons owner Bill Davidson, former Pistons president and current Palace of Auburn Hills president Tom Wilson, Pistons spokesman Matt Dobek and Pistons president Joe Dumars have so many media members (not all of them, but enough) in their hip pockets that I can't really blame you for being confused.

You've read the stories they've wanted you to read.

Larry Brown isn't loyal.

Larry Brown is a gigantic distraction.

Larry Brown's players don't believe in him.

Larry Brown wants to coach in New York.

Larry Brown wants to lead the Cleveland Cavaliers.

Well, today I'm going to share the other side of those stories, the side that Davidson, Wilson, Dobek and Dumars don't want you to read.

Larry Brown didn't ask me to share it. In fact, when I reached Brown Wednesday afternoon, he wouldn't discuss anything with me, on or off the record. Heck, the story I'm about to share is one Larry probably knows little about. He might even disagree with it.

Davidson and his right-hand man, Wilson, might be the most hypocritical, back-stabbing executives in all of sports. They could tutor Al Davis.

Brown isn't the first (or last) Pistons employee Davidson and Wilson have tossed under the bus once they've squeezed what they've wanted from him. Ask Isiah Thomas. Or Chuck Daly. Or Don Chaney. Or Rick Carlisle. Or Doug Collins. Or Jack McCloskey.

You think it's unethical or disloyal for Brown's agent to explore a management position in Cleveland while the Pistons are in the playoffs? You think Bill Davidson was justifiably offended?

Well, then, do you think it was unethical or disloyal for the Pistons to sew up a deal with Brown to replace Carlisle while the Pistons were wrapping up the 2003 regular season and playoffs?

Do some homework. Find out how Chuck Daly felt when Mr. D(avidson) hired Ron Rothstein as a radio color commentator during Daly's last season. Daly, who delivered two championships to Detroit, spent his final year on the Pistons' bench with his successor (Rothstein) looking over his shoulder and second-guessing him over the airwaves.

Oh, yeah, Mr. D and Wilson are all class. They demand loyalty and give none.

For weeks, we've heard constant reports about how Mr. D was "put off" that Brown flirted with Cleveland and spoke glowingly of his hometown Knicks. People reported these stories like they were some sort of crime against humanity.

If it was a crime, what kind of felony is it for an organization to make a habit of picking a coaching successor long before the end of the season when the coach in place hasn't yet been dismissed? The latest: Flip Saunders' name began to circulate among Pistons media puppets in February.

Around that same time, Wilson and Dobek began their assault on Brown's shaky reputation, trashing Brown to members of the media who couldn't wait to show how tough they are by beating up on a short-time employee.

Joe Dumars has constructed a great team in Detroit. But he's guilty in this Larry Brown mess as well.
A veteran Pistons reporter told me that when Wilson was president of the Pistons, Chaney and Collins suffered through similar assaults just before they were let go by sweet Mr. D. It was during this time that Detroit reporters tagged Wilson with the nickname "Teflon Tom" for his ability to avoid blame whenever the Pistons had to scrap one of his failed plans.

How did Teflon Tom become Mr. D's right-hand man? He oversaw the end of Mr. D's relationship with the greatest Piston of all time, Isiah "Zeke" Thomas.

Thomas was supposed to be a Piston for life. Late in Isiah's final season, the Pistons even held a Piston-for-life press conference for the man most responsible for Detroit's first two championships and the construction of The Palace. Isiah was supposed to get the kind of deal Magic Johnson has with the Lakers -- a piece of the organization, a fancy title and a fat check.

But guess who just happened to run into public-relations problems just before the deal was complete? And guess who benefited?

Zeke and Teflon Tom.

Yep, nasty rumors about Isiah, gambling and unsavory characters, as well as a premature leak of the news that Isiah was to be named president of the Pistons, "offended" Mr. D and ended their fairy-tale, father-son relationship.

Isiah was tossed out of the Pistons family, and Teflon Tom became president of the Pistons and The Palace. His official reign over the franchise ended when Dumars became the club's top executive. Wilson now operates from the shadows, but he and his flunkies are still highly effective.

Just ask Larry Brown.
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6/17/2006  1:07 AM
the excuses folks make for Larry Brown are ridiculous. of course he was angrier doing the winning streak - Marbury was playing the "wrong" way.
¿ △ ?
holfresh
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6/17/2006  5:44 AM


Ahhh...Larry Brown the victim and Joe Dumars and clan the villian...Not even Steven King could have come up with that one...

Ask yourself this, how does Jason Witlock defend Brown interviewing with Cleveland during Detroit's run for a Championship...

How do you defend Larry flirting with the Knick job after winning a Championship in the first season with Detroit...

News flash to Jason Witlock, every organization in sports fire coaches and GM...You don't get the keep the position for life...

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6/17/2006  6:30 AM
I am absolutely postive that half of the knicks fan base will be mad if Isiah winds with this team next season....... Sad really.
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djsunyc
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6/17/2006  9:16 AM
there's taking a quote and accepting is as real and there's taking a quote and accepting it as real...

The Post has learned some players sensed Brown appeared "angrier" at them during the six-game winning streak in January - which struck them as bizarre.

i know there's a fair contingent of anti-lb guys here but players "sensed" that he "appeared" angrier? come on guys, you can't put any stock in this.
Bonn1997
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6/17/2006  9:19 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

there's taking a quote and accepting is as real and there's taking a quote and accepting it as real...

The Post has learned some players sensed Brown appeared "angrier" at them during the six-game winning streak in January - which struck them as bizarre.

i know there's a fair contingent of anti-lb guys here but players "sensed" that he "appeared" angrier? come on guys, you can't put any stock in this.

I agree. That's about as bad (or almost) as putting stock in a reporter who feels Brown is interested in the players who'd be coming along with J. Rose and Francis.
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6/17/2006  9:37 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

there's taking a quote and accepting is as real and there's taking a quote and accepting it as real...

The Post has learned some players sensed Brown appeared "angrier" at them during the six-game winning streak in January - which struck them as bizarre.

i know there's a fair contingent of anti-lb guys here but players "sensed" that he "appeared" angrier? come on guys, you can't put any stock in this.

True, that is sensationalism at it's highest, but I believe he still tanked the season...

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6/17/2006  9:51 AM
Posted by Anji:

I am absolutely postive that half of the knicks fan base will be mad if Isiah winds with this team next season....... Sad really.

I am absolutely almost positive Isiah winning with this team won't happen
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
newyorknewyork
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6/17/2006  11:46 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

there's taking a quote and accepting is as real and there's taking a quote and accepting it as real...

The Post has learned some players sensed Brown appeared "angrier" at them during the six-game winning streak in January - which struck them as bizarre.

i know there's a fair contingent of anti-lb guys here but players "sensed" that he "appeared" angrier? come on guys, you can't put any stock in this.

So now we care about speculation.

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djsunyc
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6/17/2006  11:48 AM
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by djsunyc:

there's taking a quote and accepting is as real and there's taking a quote and accepting it as real...

The Post has learned some players sensed Brown appeared "angrier" at them during the six-game winning streak in January - which struck them as bizarre.

i know there's a fair contingent of anti-lb guys here but players "sensed" that he "appeared" angrier? come on guys, you can't put any stock in this.

So now we care about speculation.

regardless of your position, you have to admit that this is a VERY weak statement and don't think it can be used as evidence to back up a position. and what i do know is that berman and marbs are very buddy buddy right now...so he got an exclusive with steph last week. he's the only one really writing articles about this with a heavy "brown is gone" slant and it's only a matter of time. and now today we know how steph is signing autographs "i want to die a knick." i think it's a safe "assumption" that steph told him this.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 06-17-2006 11:54 AM]
Interesting article snippet...

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