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Larry Brown -- Dead Man Walking
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Pharzeone
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5/31/2006  3:57 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by EnySpree:
Posted by nixluva:

He just couldn't resist could he? LB is such a freakin drama queen. Yeah we know its a tough situation, but really he's gonna be MORE THAN OK, when he leaves. He just wants people to feel sympathy for him as this mistreated and tortured soul. I'm sure when he gets back to his million dollars spread and jumps in his boat, he's not thinking about the bad treatment the Knicks are giving him.

Nuff said.

Never seen an old man from his generation carry on the way he does. He acts like a 5 year old.

Exactly. People are willing to write off the derogatory comments to Marbury and Georgia Tech University, fine. What about calling a 20 year old kid Delusional? What about pulling drama queen acts on two different ball clubs in an 11 month period? Like everyone else in the organization, Brown has serious character problems. Maybe he didn't have them as severely when he was younger, but he's part of a terrible atmoshpere now.

Be candidates for paranoia feeling "others'' are out to get them.

Scare others away from them by their defensive attitude.

Be over-controlled emotionally, having problems letting others in on their emotions. This can lead others to guess what is going on until the passivity of the insecure person leads to an over-reaction by the others, resulting in conflict or rejection.

Have problems on the job or in school when they have the knowledge, skills and abilities to do a task efficiently but are told to do it in a different, less effective manner. They get so uptight about the job and are fearful of standing up for what they believe that they get angry, hostile, and resentful until they either quit or succeed in submerging their emotions.

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TMS
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5/31/2006  4:01 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bippity10:

I could not imagine if these guys played football. Do any of you guys have any idea what these coach's say? Marbs and the crew would have quit after day one and been run out of town. But in NY bball it's okay to quit, we fire the coach.


we have a team full of T.O.'s w/o any of his talent.

The first thing Bill Parcell's said in his press conference is that he doesn't want to hear TO complain about numbers because he would not get big numbers in HIS OFFENSE. He said TO would have to adjust to the offense not the other way around. Now of course Parcells will change some of his plays but his offensive philosophy will stay the same way it has for decades. If TO wants to win a superbowl he will not cause problems. If he does cause problems and destroys the team, Dallas will cut him and not the coach.

We do things differently here in NY. But I do beleive that Dallas has a few more titles than we do. That's why when they had a down period the first thing they did was hire a proven winner and do everything he says, even if he calls his players girls and cuts anyone that doesn't play his way. In New York proven winners are not important. Hire GM's that have done nothing but add salary and hire yes men coach's who give in to the TO's of the world and give them whatever they want so they can put up numbers.

it's sad isn't it? our entire approach towards building a champion is arsebackwards, just like our pathetically stupid owner!

i'll take a team full of these guys



over a team full of T.O.'s anyday


After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bippity10
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5/31/2006  4:24 PM
Bonn do you think that much changed about LB since he left Detroit or has he always been a bast-ard? The only difference is our wonderful media. LB should have adjusted and so should our players.

I played basketball for one of the most sarcastic people on the face of the earth. I have seen him go up to Travis Knight in the middle of a game 7 feet from his parents and call him every f'in name in the world. I've seen him yell so loud in a quiet stadium that every person in the entire arena could here what type of f'in, fster he was. The funny thing is, it was usually not him that was the problem. Travis could have quit at that point. He had all our support. Instead he held his anger in, in front of the team, listened to the coach and played his as-s off. Magically all the ridicule and "abuse" he took turned him from a bid player at the college level to a multi-millionaire. You don't have to like your coach or what they say(what part of this is hard to understand). But you are a grown man. Suck it up and play.
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nyk4ever
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5/31/2006  4:27 PM
Bip, I'm getting tired of hearing your stories and not knowing who you are

"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Bippity10
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5/31/2006  4:30 PM
I was a Bit player that accomplished nothing because I hated the coach :)
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Nalod
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5/31/2006  4:34 PM
GT is an engineering school. In the face of Marbury, thats funny as hell!

These guys rib each other about their schools all the time! Larry's biggest regrets was leaving UCLA for the Jersey gig.

Nothing Larry said earned the right of players to quit on their profession.
Killa4luv
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5/31/2006  4:38 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Bonn do you think that much changed about LB since he left Detroit or has he always been a bast-ard? The only difference is our wonderful media. LB should have adjusted and so should our players.

I played basketball for one of the most sarcastic people on the face of the earth. I have seen him go up to Travis Knight in the middle of a game 7 feet from his parents and call him every f'in name in the world. I've seen him yell so loud in a quiet stadium that every person in the entire arena could here what type of f'in, fster he was. The funny thing is, it was usually not him that was the problem. Travis could have quit at that point. He had all our support. Instead he held his anger in, in front of the team, listened to the coach and played his as-s off. Magically all the ridicule and "abuse" he took turned him from a bid player at the college level to a multi-millionaire. You don't have to like your coach or what they say(what part of this is hard to understand). But you are a grown man. Suck it up and play.

Bip, nice story. And I think everyone understands that. Its no the yelling and the demanding or any of that that was his problem. It is the public berating and humiliation.

What you were describing was coaching on a court, in a game. What LB was doing was none of that. It was the equivalent of talking behind someones back, only the whole world could hear you. If I were sucking up all of the yelling, and cussing that must have been going on in practice, trying to play the 'right' way and so on, and then the coach behind my back starts taking jabs at me. I'd have a problem with it, and so would 99% of the people here.
fishmike
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5/31/2006  4:40 PM
well if anything Larry said was so devastating that you quit on your teammates and profession than we truly do have the softest players known to man.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
BasketballJones
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5/31/2006  4:54 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Bonn do you think that much changed about LB since he left Detroit or has he always been a bast-ard? The only difference is our wonderful media. LB should have adjusted and so should our players.

I played basketball for one of the most sarcastic people on the face of the earth. I have seen him go up to Travis Knight in the middle of a game 7 feet from his parents and call him every f'in name in the world. I've seen him yell so loud in a quiet stadium that every person in the entire arena could here what type of f'in, fster he was. The funny thing is, it was usually not him that was the problem. Travis could have quit at that point. He had all our support. Instead he held his anger in, in front of the team, listened to the coach and played his as-s off. Magically all the ridicule and "abuse" he took turned him from a bid player at the college level to a multi-millionaire. You don't have to like your coach or what they say(what part of this is hard to understand). But you are a grown man. Suck it up and play.

Is that you Travis?

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Bippity10
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5/31/2006  4:54 PM
Again, no one is saying LB is right. I dont' think Calhoun is right to yell at an 18 year old and call him an f'er in front of his parents that just traveled a billion miles to see their son play. I don't think he's right to embarrass an 18 year old in front of 20,000 people. I thought the guy was an arse. But guess who won the players respect for not quitting on them?

You can hate your coach, think he's an as-se, want to kill him, beg for him to be fired, but when you are on the court you play for yourself, the fans and your teammates, not your coach. If the team had played hard and lost they would have our respect and everyone calls for LB's firing. But since they tuned it out from day one just like they do every coach they ever played for they don't get my support. At this point I support the coach that has been the same way for 30 years and produced winners. NOt the player that never makes the playoffs, argues with all his teammates and coach's or comes to camp out of shape.

BUT THAT'S JUST ME
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sebstar
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5/31/2006  5:10 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Bonn do you think that much changed about LB since he left Detroit or has he always been a bast-ard? The only difference is our wonderful media. LB should have adjusted and so should our players.

I don’t know who the hell his father is, but Brown has always had a strong reputation as having 'wanderlust'. To me that’s just a euphemism. The parallels between his behavior and T.O are striking, yet T.O is a sports pariah. Brown has ostracized players everywhere he has gone and has never missed an opportunity to bail on a team when he thinks there might be a few shiny nickels in it for him. Detroit players were thrilled to see him go.

He’s a great coach. I wont deny that. However, he was handed a talented, albeit flawed roster and because everything didn’t go his way and because he was met with resistance from some players his recourse was to whine to anyone who would listen. Instead of digging in his heels and showing leadership, he threw his players and his G.M under the bus when pretty much everybody was in agreement that this was at worst a borderline playoff team heading into the season. This guy never met a challenging b-ball situation he wasn’t ready to run away from.

The lack of accountability directed his way has been almost frightening. Once again its another “poor L.B saga” and not a 'how the hell did this coach only produce 23 wins' story. I guess 40 mil doesn’t buy a lot these days.

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Bonn1997
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5/31/2006  5:25 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Bonn do you think that much changed about LB since he left Detroit or has he always been a bast-ard?
What do I think? Neither. I think toward the end of his stay at Detroit, whatever personality problems he always had began to intensify and have not stopped intensifying. I bet anyone in the Detroit or Knicks' ogranization would agree.

Bippity10
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5/31/2006  5:25 PM
sebstar: You seem to be just another in a long line of people that can't seem to figure out that noone cares about LB's feelings. To a man on this site I don't think there is one person who has come on here and said that LB did even remotely a good job for this team. As a matter of fact to a man everyone on this site pretty much thinks he did the worst job in the NBA.

But the point is simple. The man has beent this way forever. I guess some of us knew this going in and some of you guys are figuring it out for the first time. Some of us spent a summer letting you know it was going to be pretty tough around here. Disciplinarians don't come into a losing situation and make things cozy. All of them are the same way. They come in and clean house. That's what makes them disciplinarians. If that's not what you want as an organization you do not hire him. But if you hire him. You know what you are getting and you follow his methods because regardless of his wanderlust every team he's coached(for a few exceptions you research fools) comes out better for it.

I think a main problem is everyone thinks we can be compared to any other team in the leauge. What we fail to admit is that we are one of the worst organizations in the history of sports. 125 million dollar payroll and 23 wins. It's a debacle fellows. It's time to change course, hire a winner and follow his lead even if that means we take 75 steps back. This patience that all of us say we have, well it's time for it.

I don't like LB. I think he is a jerk. But he has earned the right to have a bad season. And we have lost for long enough, and been losing for long enough that it's time in NY that we realize as Knick fans that WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO WIN. It's time to follow someoen that does. At the rate we are firing hall of fame coach's(if LB is fired) who are we going to have left.

Lenny Wilkens is another example. Taht guy was not going to coach us to a title. His job wasn't even to get us a .500 record. But he was the perfect mentor. He was the perfect guy to lead our PG. To teach and mentor him on winning. He was a proven winner that could at least start the momentum. Instead we allowed our players to rebel(whether you want to admit it or not), we fired his assitants, made him impotent and ran him out of town. Why? Because we couldn't stand to wait to see a guy mentored and grow. WE needed instant wins!!!! And gosh darn it if we don't get them, fire the coach. He's to blame!!!!!!!

Now once again, we find ourselves in the same spot. We are a horrible organization. We don't think of who we can get to build. We think of who we can get rid of next. When are we going to figure it out? When Is enough truly enough for you guys? When are we going to hire a coach and let him do his thing even if it makes us uncomfortable? Do you honestly think a guy like Parcells would come in and keep the status quo? No more status quo. I hate status quo.

[Edited by - Bippity10 on 05-31-2006 5:50 PM]
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Bippity10
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5/31/2006  5:49 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Bippity10:

Bonn do you think that much changed about LB since he left Detroit or has he always been a bast-ard?
What do I think? Neither. I think toward the end of his stay at Detroit, whatever personality problems he always had began to intensify and have not stopped intensifying. I bet anyone in the Detroit or Knicks' ogranization would agree.

Speculation(which is what we seem to live by) but okay let's say it's 100% true. What does that have to do with the team quitting? What credibility to Detroit players have when they scream all year about how they are better becasue of their freedom and then turn around and turn on the next coach when that freedom doesn't seem to work in the playoffs. What credibility does Jerome James have? Eddie Curry hated by Skiles, what credibility does he have? Steve Francis refuses to re-enter a game, what credibility does he have? Rookies never played at the NBA level, what credibility do they have? Trevor Ariza drafted in the second round, struggling to get into an NBA rotation what credibility does he have(20 years ago a 19 year old with no jumpshot or handle would be cut for talking back to ANY COACH)? What credibility does Marbs have when he has been hated at every stop he has ever been? I am trying to love that guy. But at what point does he just shut up and produce some wins for me? Mo Taylor run out of town everytime he runs into a disciplinarian? We could go on and on.

I'm a bas-tard when I coach too. I am a jerk. I know I am. But I learn real quick who is going to be with me when a championship is on the line. Those are the guys that go through a brick wall regardless of how much I push them and how much they hate me. Those are the guys that earn my praises and never hear anything but praise from me as they learn and listen to what I say. Those are the guys that improve their games and work ethic so drastically that if they don't make it to the next level in sports, they transfer that ethic to the rest of their lives and somehow find a way to make it.

The other guys. The guys that let my constant pushing upset them and make them cry, and go running to their mommies, are the guys you don't want to be next to if you are ever in trouble.

We all know that people who coach are more competitive than anyone on the planet. That's why they coach. They never try to lose. Even if you tear your team down today, you coach because you have an end goal in mind. You don't tear down and ridicule for the sake of it. You don't hate any of your players. You've seen all types. After a while you know what type of players you will have before they even walk in your gym. A guy steps out of line so what, been there done that. For a coach it's not personal. You ridicule and push because you have the same goal that they have. But your standard for them is often higher than their's. And you know if you hand them something like playing time or undying affection they will wind up prima donnas(that's why Marbs, and Francis and the rest are who they are). You realize that the only way to get them to achieve what THEY WANT is to push them like they've never been pushed. Unfortunately too many nowadays take it personal and rebel. And that says a lot about our coaching at the highschool level. We don't coach these guys. We fall in love with their talent and let them do whatever they want because they can. A standard of behavior and teamwork is never set. These guys come out with skills but have never come across a coach that is allowed to tell them anything. It's very sad.

You know who's coming with you. The Frye's and Lee's of the world take the abuse and soon get all the praise because regardless of skill they are winners. And if you are fired they will carry that winning to the next coach. The rest of teh bunch will complain about systems and roles and give you a 1000 reasons and in the end will retire still making the same g-damn excuses.

I don't excuse LB's actions. I think he was wrong for going to the press. I said during the season that I was okay when Marbs said that coach should shut up and keep it private. I was 100% behind Marbs when he said they had a communication issue and that coach should come to him. At this point he had all my respect. But unfortunately with Marbs he doesn't know how to maintain momentum. The Orlando game destroyed his credibility with his teammates. And his tirade after his return from injury and ignoring plays was a selfish on court act. I don't care if he's selfish as a person, but on the court he is a Knick. They are all Knicks. But none of them act like it. Instead they act like individuals wearing a uniform. This has gone on for 7 years now. The names have changed but the story remains the same. And yet in the end all we want to do is fire the coach because it makes us feel better. It's the easy way out.

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BasketballJones
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5/31/2006  5:54 PM
Bippity, the problem is with the outdated model of the authoritarian coach. This kind of hierarchical thinking won't work with today's players, especially the Knick players. They need total freedom, and the only way to acheive that is to eliminate the position of coach, or reverse the hierarchy so that the coach follows the players' orders.

[Edited by - BASKETBALLJONES on 05-31-2006 17:54]
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Bippity10
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5/31/2006  6:16 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:

Bippity, the problem is with the outdated model of the authoritarian coach. This kind of hierarchical thinking won't work with today's players, especially the Knick players. They need total freedom, and the only way to acheive that is to eliminate the position of coach, or reverse the hierarchy so that the coach follows the players' orders.

[Edited by - BASKETBALLJONES on 05-31-2006 17:54]


True. It's a thought. We could eliminate the coach and then assign a player coach. Of course then we'd have to cut the player coach because he was coach. This is quite the conundrum. From now on, everybody do what they want, nobody can tell anybody anything. I like it.


[Edited by - Bippity10 on 05-31-2006 6:23 PM]
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Bippity10
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5/31/2006  6:27 PM
Let's say Dallas is losing 55-0. On the final play of the game a rookie catches a long bomb for a touchdown. After the touchdown in a 55-7 loss the rookie does the river dance, while holding pompoms and singing a football with a sharpie. What do you think Parcells would do to that rookie?

Yet when that happened in NY and Nate celebrates a dunk in a 30 pt utter embarrassment where the team literally stopped playing, we Knick fans don't want anyone to say anything to him. How is he going to learn? He got the treatment from the coach deservedly. He was sent back to the bench to learn. He came back, pouted, followed his star leader and chose not to shoot for a few games. Complained about how he was being held back. Then magically after the pouting was done he started playing some of the best ball of the year. Sometimes you have to call your team out. Unfortunately in NY our coach's don't have the power to do any of this.

It is a unique situation here. We cannot tiptoe around a perpetual 35 win team. We cannot worry about feelings. We need to wreck shop and change the course.
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Bippity10
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5/31/2006  6:41 PM
Coaching story(if this offends you don't read)My first job. Came into a situation in which the team averaged 4 wins over the course of 15 years. The coach there was my coach in high school and had 5 or 6 state titles before he got here. But yet he couldn't win here. Why? His expectations had lowered. The school told him they weren't a basketball school and that every big time athlete went elsewhere. Duh?

The coach told me that it was career suicide for me to coach there and that I should go elsewhere. But when I walked around the school I saw so many athletes on the football field, lacrosse and volleyball courts that I saw no reason why it couldn't be a bball school.

The year before I arrived they won 7 games and had all 5 starters back. The league had 5 of the states top 10 so we were predicted to win between 8-10 games and get our first state appearance in 15 years. Everyone was so excited. My first day of practice I walked in and said "the starters from last year raise your hands". I had them stand out in front of everyone. I proceeded to run off their accolades off a sheet of paper for a total of about 15 minutes. The kids were beaming. I then asked them their goals for the season. To a man, 8-12(which means 8-12 or 12-8) wins and the states. After all that I turned to my team and said these guys are the guys that you look up to. These are the guys that are going to carry you to 10-12 wins. Guys started to clap. At that point I wanted to strangle every kid in the gym. I preceeded to yell for god knows how long. I yelled and cursed at kids that hadn't even dribbled a ball in front of me yet. I called them losers for hoping for 8 wins. I called them underachieiving sissies(in nicer terms) and I made it clear that every starter would start the year on the JV level. If they were not good enough to meet MY STANDARDS by the start of the season they would be cut.

I immediately had 2 starters quit. I had 7 or 8 sets of parents in my office the next day complaining about me being mean. When they were all done, I told them that I respected what they said. I invited those parents to practice. I then proceeded with a practice in which anyone with a parent in attendance was not allowed to partake in any of my drills(did not make this announcement, just did it). I made it clear that my standard was not 7 wins, or 8, or 10 or even 12. My standard was independent of wins. My standard was to have this team function as a team and learn what it means to do whatever it takes for THEIR TEAMMATES, NOT ME!!!!!!!

I quickly went from 15 guys on both JV and varsity to 10 guys total. I had everyone in the town screaming for my exit. But guess waht. My athletic director was behind me 100%. He said do what you have to do. Change the status quo. It can't get any worse. Well we won 4 games my first year. I had a motion offense I learned on the internet(because we were so thin that my players couldn't learn anything else) and one play. We were blown out in eveyr game but the 10 kids that were with me were the hardest working 10 kids ever. All football players. All mean. No skills, but resilience. EArly in the season if we made a run at someone they would laugh. Clear a side, have one guy dribble around for 50 seconds and then embarrass our guys with one on one moves. By the end of the season when we would make a run at someone they were no longer laughing. They were checking the clock and praying the time would run out. Many times it did. But we won 3 of the last 5 and gave everyone a run for their money. The last game we beat our rival and you could feel a change everywhere.

The team sucked, I was a horrible coach but one thing we did was change the culture. Praying for a state title was not our goal. BUILDING a program and leaving a legacy for the next generation was the only goal. Even if we stunk we were going to leave a mark. Well as you've heard me brag a million times. The culture changed. The next year I had 40 guys in my try-out. The most in about 10 years. A kid that we expected to go to catholic school stayed because he wanted to be the one that helped coach and team turn it around. Within three years I still was the worst, least experienced coach in the league. But I had an athletic director that supported everything I did. Players didn't step out of line because they knew it WAS MY PROGRAM, NOT THERE'S. If you stepped out of line that was fine. I didn't hate you. I would be more than happy to say hello to you in the hallway as you walked to your after school crochet program while the men stayed in line and played basketball. Three state titles later I got a raise.

Now obviously before some of you guys chime in and say the Knicks aren't high schoo(which is debatable). Of course they aren't. Building at the high school level is a hell of a lot easier. But the concept of building is the same everywhere. Uconn was built this way(many of us watched them grow from nothing to a powerhouse). First you change the culture. You stop going after misfits, you don't go after the superstars at first. First you must build a culture of professionalism and winning. YOU MUST SET STANDARDS OF PERFORMANCE. YOU MUST SET ORGANIZATIONAL STANDARDS OF BEHAVIOR. If you hate your coahc and the way he treats you and you want him fired. Doesn't matter what he did when he was there. YOu treat him with dignity and respect because that's what you do as an organization. That's what you are about. Then the superstars will magically appear.

[Edited by - Bippity10 on 05-31-2006 6:53 PM]

[Edited by - Bippity10 on 05-31-2006 6:54 PM]

[Edited by - Bippity10 on 05-31-2006 6:55 PM]

[Edited by - Bippity10 on 05-31-2006 6:56 PM]
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BasketballJones
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5/31/2006  7:33 PM
Sorta sounds like the plot to "Hoosiers".
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nyk4ever
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5/31/2006  7:39 PM
Keep on preaching, Bippity. I don't understand as a New York fan myself where other New York fans can not see the light. I think you've given a couple great examples, with the player catching a TD and celebrating while his team is getting killed (relate that to Nate) and most New York fans don't want you to say anything to him but not only that, they will laugh at the play and get pumped up for Nates antics. I like Nate, I like his energy and I think he has a chance to be a excellent player in this league.

Like Nate, the rest of the Knicks team needs to be taught certain things, certain things that make players better and makes teams playoff teams. You can have all the talent in the world(see Stephon), I want to see Stephon succeed here in New York in the worst way but I as a basketball fan know that the only way I'm going to see a Knicks championship calibur team is by Stephon listening to his COACHES(see Larry Brown) who are trying to teach Stephon to give in certain places to make himself a all around better player which will translate into the team being a better all around team. This isn't all about Stephon, I'm just using him as example - the same goes for Curry, Crawford, Frye, Lee, Nate.. everyone. When you ask guys like Allen Iverson who taught them the most in basketball, their going to say Larry Brown becuase they've said it before. I don't like Larry antics, I don't like the way he goes about things.. hell, I never rooted for him once before he was the Knicks coach BUT the guy knows what he's doing, he's done it before and like it or not he'll do it again, even if it's not for the Knicks. I hope Larry is back next year and the players and himself come in with a clean slate, both parties knowing what CAN'T be said this time around in the media, whatever.

Coaches don't adapt to their players, players adapt to their coach, see Mike D'Antoni, Scott Skiles, Avery Johnson even has the Mavs playing defense, Phil Jackson, Bill Parcells, Bill Bellicheck. All these guys run their systems and if the players don't follow the rules of that system then they don't play (see Scott Skiles benching Eddy Curry and Bill Parcells cutting anyone, obviously can't do that in the NBA.) Honestly, the Knicks have been so bad for so long, why can't we let Larry do his thing?
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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Larry Brown -- Dead Man Walking
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