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nyk4ever
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4/21/2006  1:35 PM
Posted by holfresh:

It frustrates us because this guy has so much ability and the problem with him is between his ears, nothing else....

Hell has frozen over. Holfresh speaks and NYK4EVER listens and agrees! I agree with that fully.
Posted by holfresh:

This may be a first Bip, but I totally agree with that...But I tell you this, even if Steph gave his heart and soul this year, no one else showed up to play or coach....

Holfresh would you agree with the notion that when your star player listens to the coach that others will follow? I don't lay the blame squarely on Stephon for not showing up for Larry and thats why everyone else didnt. The other players on the team themselves are the ones that have to show up for the coach, it shouldn't come becuase the star listens and shows up, but I just know that on almost all good teams, the star player(s) show up for the coach and are the first to do so. Tim Duncan, any Pistons starter, Shaq, Jordan, Olajuwon. Do you agree with this sentiment?

Basically what I'm saying is that I wish Marbury showed up for Larry because if players saw Stephon Marbury(someone who is cutting into his stats to play as a team) listening to Larry then they know that they should be listening and doing what he wants too.
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Bippity10
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4/21/2006  1:45 PM
If he does that his career will take off even if his stats don't. He will be looked at as a leader instead of a cancer. Marbs could change the perception of himself in one month. But instead he plays the victim and just makes the situation worse. It's start getting late in his career. He needs to figure it out soon or his career will be quickly forgotten. Guys like him are a dime a dozen. Come on Marbs, buck up, be a man and realize your coach and teammates are on the same team as you!!!
I just hope that people will like me
Pharzeone
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4/21/2006  2:08 PM
I think that has always been the knock on Marbury. Coming out of the 96 draft. They said which pg could be the best AI or Steph. The theory back then was that AI was the superior scorer but Steph was the all-around pg, he can get you assist without trying, penetrate, pick and roll. He did everything that was asked of him with the T-Wolves. He made a decision not to play that way, he wanted to score more, he wanted to fastbreak on his terms. He just never matured out of that state.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
holfresh
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4/21/2006  2:24 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by holfresh:

It frustrates us because this guy has so much ability and the problem with him is between his ears, nothing else....

Hell has frozen over. Holfresh speaks and NYK4EVER listens and agrees! I agree with that fully.
Posted by holfresh:

This may be a first Bip, but I totally agree with that...But I tell you this, even if Steph gave his heart and soul this year, no one else showed up to play or coach....

Holfresh would you agree with the notion that when your star player listens to the coach that others will follow? I don't lay the blame squarely on Stephon for not showing up for Larry and thats why everyone else didnt. The other players on the team themselves are the ones that have to show up for the coach, it shouldn't come becuase the star listens and shows up, but I just know that on almost all good teams, the star player(s) show up for the coach and are the first to do so. Tim Duncan, any Pistons starter, Shaq, Jordan, Olajuwon. Do you agree with this sentiment?

Basically what I'm saying is that I wish Marbury showed up for Larry because if players saw Stephon Marbury(someone who is cutting into his stats to play as a team) listening to Larry then they know that they should be listening and doing what he wants too.



I do agree with that assessment to a certain point...these are men and have a responsibilty to the organization that is paying them and to their families in terms of pride...Lets say that Marbs is the cancer that everyone says he is....Why is it not the responsibility of the coach and the rest of the team to carry on and be the best they can be....It didn't happen that way...the way the season went was Larry was experimenting with lots of lineups, he wasn't sure how much time to give the rooks but he saw they may have more of an impact that he planned for...The players got confused about what he was doing....The losses started coming, he tried to blame a few players in the press...The fights in the press took a life onto it's own and the losses kept piling up...Steph looked as though he started buying in and the city saw signs of hope in all the madness..They win a few games and the love started coming towards Larry Brown....Marbs gets hurt and the losses are back again....Larry digs at other players in the press....some responded and it just got ugly...Marbs start making statments....23 wins later, it must be Marbury's fault...He is the guy that usually shoulders the blame in every other place and it must be him again....

If Marbs is a cancer because of all his negativity has permeated the organization, he has to be moved... Larry has the same effect if not more on this organization....there is no denying that Larry is as much a cancer that Marbs is, if not more...They both need to be removed....Even if we move Marbs, Larry has to go as well....This is just a bad guy....You just can never believe the guy....You can never trust Larry...How are we asking our young kids to buy into what he is preaching when everyone knows he is full of S#it...How is this a good way to rebuild an organization?? Am I the only one seeing this???



[Edited by - holfresh on 04-21-2006 2:27 PM]

[Edited by - holfresh on 04-21-2006 2:33 PM]
holfresh
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4/21/2006  11:10 PM


Where is Bip when I need him...
Killa4luv
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4/22/2006  4:56 AM
Posted by holfresh:

I do agree with that assessment to a certain point...these are men and have a responsibilty to the organization that is paying them and to their families in terms of pride...Lets say that Marbs is the cancer that everyone says he is....Why is it not the responsibility of the coach and the rest of the team to carry on and be the best they can be....It didn't happen that way...the way the season went was Larry was experimenting with lots of lineups, he wasn't sure how much time to give the rooks but he saw they may have more of an impact that he planned for...The players got confused about what he was doing....The losses started coming, he tried to blame a few players in the press...The fights in the press took a life onto it's own and the losses kept piling up...Steph looked as though he started buying in and the city saw signs of hope in all the madness..They win a few games and the love started coming towards Larry Brown....Marbs gets hurt and the losses are back again....Larry digs at other players in the press....some responded and it just got ugly...Marbs start making statments....23 wins later, it must be Marbury's fault...He is the guy that usually shoulders the blame in every other place and it must be him again....
You saved me the time of having to sum this up myself. No one remembers things this way because it doesn't match their illusions of LB's greatness and Steph's ineptitude, but this is the bottom line of what happened. Steph got hurt and our season dovetailed.
If Marbs is a cancer because of all his negativity has permeated the organization, he has to be moved... Larry has the same effect if not more on this organization....there is no denying that Larry is as much a cancer that Marbs is, if not more...They both need to be removed....Even if we move Marbs, Larry has to go as well....This is just a bad guy....You just can never believe the guy....You can never trust Larry...How are we asking our young kids to buy into what he is preaching when everyone knows he is full of S#it...How is this a good way to rebuild an organization?? Am I the only one seeing this???
No you are not. But let me say this, I still think it can work, LB just needs to shut his mouth, and stop being a divisive force, and we can win.
Marv
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4/22/2006  8:03 AM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by Marv:

rv, I think you're engaigng in the love or hate Marbs debate, which is always fun and which i've participated in many times myself.

But i am talking about his performance on the court = his game and the results it's achieved consistently over his career across mamy different franchises, different teammates, different coaches.

The guy's performance has been sporadically and occasionally brilliant. His overall statistics averaged over his career are good. His impacat on a team's performance is almost always poor. Performance here = win/loss record, not love or hatred garnered.

Marv, you can look at a player and look at the teams record and draw a conclusion, that does not necasarily make it correct. Look at Cliff Robinson's career, he's been in the playoffs every year except one, does that necasarily say anything about his value or impact on a team?

Look at LB, look at our season and draw a conclusion.

Look at Crawford, he's been in the league 6 seasons, what his has impact been? As soon as he left chicago, they went to the playoffs. Do I blame him for that? Is he the reason for that?

My point is this: I believe in cause and effect. I do not believe in magic. I do not believe in a magical losing aura that hangs over an individual player/s. I watch games and I see what players do and evaluate them based on that. In the same way that I watch teams and evaluate them based on their collective play.

I've watched probably 90% or more of the games Steph has played in a Knick uniform. HIs game has flaws, and strengths. Point Blank to look at this season and say Stephon's play is the reason we sucked, is ridiculous and illogical. To look at his time in NJ and say that is equally as illogical, it really just doesn't make sense. Look at his impact on Minnesota, it doesn't fit into the cliche 'Steph leaves and teams get better' so it doesn't come up. Things are more complex than that and this "look at a player and look at wins/losses=their impact" is really lazy logic.

killa, I'm looking at the situation from the point of view of where I want to see this franchise go. I don't think Steph's the right guy anymore to lead us at point. But let's take another look at Steph's career and see if it's really lazy logic to look at wins/losses when evaluating his impact.

The Minnesota situation does stand apart, you're right. That was sad to see happen for all basketballl fans, but Steph made his decision there and we'll never get to know what he and KG could have had there over time. But i'd really like to know - how can you look at his NJ, PHO and NY times and not reach the conclusion that he's a player who's brilliant sporadically, has good overall stats and doesn't lead teams to win consistently? How is that such lazy thinking? I'm not blaming him for this season. This season was a clusterf**k. But can you say that NJ didn't make a great decision to trade Steph for Kidd? Can you say that PHO didn't make a great decision to trade Steph and sign Nash? How many times does history have to repeat itself? What's NY's record with Steph? I suppose a response can be to ask about his temamates here, his coaches here. Those are legit questions to ask. But they end up being asked every time he leaves a situation. He's a very talented point guard. He's placed in a position of leadership on the court. His teams don't consistently win. It happens now time after time after time = NJ, PHO and NY. Deciding that you don't want to put the growth of this franchise in Steph's hands at the point anymore doesn't mean you're blaming him for what's gone wrong with the franchise.

In my case, I've always liked the guy alot, was thrilled when we got him, wanted nothing more than for him to lead us to victory. But I want this franchise to move forward in a positive way - and in a winning way. I can't sit here and honestly say that I think Steph's the right guy to do that for us this point. I think we need some freshness in a lot of places on this team. And I think Steph's position is one of those places. For the good of this squad moving forward, I want to see a new direction at the point.
djsunyc
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4/22/2006  11:01 AM
i think everybody agrees that steph is not a leader...but unfortunately isiah put him in the position to be a leader and that was wrong. as soon as steph got here, he was given the keys to the franchise. he was lauded as the 2nd most important person in the organization. isiah said nyc was a "guard town". he became his mentor and had steph ask to be the team captain. he then proceeded to make personnel moves based on steph's input (i.e lenny's firing, buying out shandon, trading kurt). isiah PUT steph in the position of leadership and steph though he was. but the problem is that he's not. and the worse thing is that when steph is not happy, he's not a good soldier.

so ultimately, all of this lies on isiah...but dolan and isiah are shifting it to lb. when isiah says "i would still make every trade again" and when dolan says "lb has to find a way to make eddy a 4th quarter player", we know where the allegiance lies and who will be the next scapegoat. at this point, it's all about covering one's ass. mills will never say anything bad about isiah b/c this is his 2nd gm. isiah will never say anything bad about the players b/c he spent dolan's money on them and sold it to him. so that leaves the coach...where isiah can say "hey, it's lb. i'm not wrong for hiring him but he's messing this up." when in fact, REGARDLESS of who the coach is (lenny, chaney, lb, etc.), this team will still be in trouble b/c it's built incorrectly in terms of on court fit, and personality wise.

we are in trouble.
holfresh
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4/22/2006  1:51 PM
DJ, this has to be the first instant since I began watching basketball games when a coach has better talent than the previous year and he is not held accountable....How could you honestly not hold Brown accountable...Fine, he may have a great track record, but he did a god awful job this year....you are saying they are "shifting it to LB, and who will be the next scapegoat"...Don't get me wrong, everyone had a part in this mess, but it's Brown responsiblilty to get this team to play together, he didn't do that...

Brown is the only coach I know thta people are willing to give a pass to until he gets his players...Hell, Lenny didn't have his players either...Chaney didn't have his players...If you don't have your players, does that mena you don't try to win...Doesn't that sound like a guy that has an attitude problem and pouts....In my eyes, Larry Brown and Steph Marbury are the same person...Both selfish in their wants, and pouts and don't want to win if it's not happening their way...They are both cancers by definition.....

[Edited by - holfresh on 04-22-2006 1:51 PM]

[Edited by - holfresh on 04-22-2006 1:53 PM]
djsunyc
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4/22/2006  2:23 PM
Posted by holfresh:

DJ, this has to be the first instant since I began watching basketball games when a coach has better talent than the previous year and he is not held accountable....How could you honestly not hold Brown accountable...Fine, he may have a great track record, but he did a god awful job this year....you are saying they are "shifting it to LB, and who will be the next scapegoat"...Don't get me wrong, everyone had a part in this mess, but it's Brown responsiblilty to get this team to play together, he didn't do that...

Brown is the only coach I know thta people are willing to give a pass to until he gets his players...Hell, Lenny didn't have his players either...Chaney didn't have his players...If you don't have your players, does that mena you don't try to win...Doesn't that sound like a guy that has an attitude problem and pouts....In my eyes, Larry Brown and Steph Marbury are the same person...Both selfish in their wants, and pouts and don't want to win if it's not happening their way...They are both cancers by definition.....

i think that's what many don't understand...people that support lb ARE holding him accountable for the win/loss record this year...but he's the LEAST of our problems. 23-59 is not a reflection of us having an awful coach. it's more a reflection of the roster makeup. coaching this team to it's "strengths" may get it to 38-40 wins and an 8th seed. but then, what that does is fool us to think that we just need to make one more trade to get over the hump. when that "hump" is not a championship. that "hump" is just making the playoffs year after year but not seriously making a run at a title. that's more important to me, and probably for the others that don't rail on lb. we're better off building via the lb route and then trying to upgrade the talent later...b/c it's the lb type of philosophy that championship teams are built on.
holfresh
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4/22/2006  2:49 PM


I totally disagree with this assessment...It was impossible to put a roster out there in two years after Layden's reign that made perfect sense...Impossible...We didn't have a center, a shooting guard, a small forward, and more importantly a point guard....The only asset we had was Kurt Thomas...How was it possible to turn the roster into one that was suitable for Larry needs...Larry Brown of all people should have understood that...Fans don't care, they think you can build a championship in a day...

Making the playoffs is always good...If the Knicks made the playoffs this year with this roster would have been great for the rooks...The confidence and experience they would have gotten would have been invaluable...It would have help them in the offseason to know what they needed to work on to get to the next level...Now Larry didn't try to win and there is confusion through out the organization...I really don't see how trying to win 38 to 40 games is a bad thing...Are you really trying to make the agruement that wining 23 games is better for the Knicks so we can revamp the roster and start from square one again....Tell me this, what if we are not able to get Larry all he wants again next season..Do we tank next season as well???
McK1
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4/22/2006  7:31 PM
Posted by holfresh:



I totally disagree with this assessment...It was impossible to put a roster out there in two years after Layden's reign that made perfect sense...Impossible


you KNOW this how?

Fist off Isiah had all his draft picks, Dyess' ending contract, Kurts ending contract. Instead of trying to land every star on the market he could've did what GM's like Billy Knight and Ainge did and use the ending deals of those players to facilitate trades and pick up no. 1's in the process.

then there is his use of the MLE: Baker and James. The list of players signed for the MLE in 04 and 05 makes giving that money to those 2 a criminal act of lunacy.

Isiah could've rebuilt from the beginning. He traded a pick in the Howard draft for Steph plus a pick is still owed and steadily losing protection. He did OK in 05. He trades 2 more firsts for fat ass Curry.
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Killa4luv
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4/22/2006  9:43 PM
Posted by Marv:

killa, I'm looking at the situation from the point of view of where I want to see this franchise go. I don't think Steph's the right guy anymore to lead us at point. But let's take another look at Steph's career and see if it's really lazy logic to look at wins/losses when evaluating his impact.

The Minnesota situation does stand apart, you're right. That was sad to see happen for all basketballl fans, but Steph made his decision there and we'll never get to know what he and KG could have had there over time. But i'd really like to know - how can you look at his NJ, PHO and NY times and not reach the conclusion that he's a player who's brilliant sporadically, has good overall stats and doesn't lead teams to win consistently? How is that such lazy thinking? I'm not blaming him for this season. This season was a clusterf**k. But can you say that NJ didn't make a great decision to trade Steph for Kidd? Can you say that PHO didn't make a great decision to trade Steph and sign Nash? How many times does history have to repeat itself? What's NY's record with Steph? I suppose a response can be to ask about his temamates here, his coaches here. Those are legit questions to ask. But they end up being asked every time he leaves a situation. He's a very talented point guard. He's placed in a position of leadership on the court. His teams don't consistently win. It happens now time after time after time = NJ, PHO and NY. Deciding that you don't want to put the growth of this franchise in Steph's hands at the point anymore doesn't mean you're blaming him for what's gone wrong with the franchise.

In my case, I've always liked the guy alot, was thrilled when we got him, wanted nothing more than for him to lead us to victory. But I want this franchise to move forward in a positive way - and in a winning way. I can't sit here and honestly say that I think Steph's the right guy to do that for us this point. I think we need some freshness in a lot of places on this team. And I think Steph's position is one of those places. For the good of this squad moving forward, I want to see a new direction at the point.
Marv you raise very many questions that are good questions. Do I think the trades for Nash and J. Kidd were good? Yes. Do I say that they are the sole reason for those teams turning it around? No. Do I think Steph could do comparable things as what happened in those places if he had the same squad? yes. has he ever played with a squad as talented as the one those guys have? No. We could go on and on with this, but I understand your point, I just don't agree. Each situation in NJ and Phoenix was more than simply the swapping of players into the same situations. But whatever.

I don't see how you watched this team, this year, before his injury and say he was a part of the problem here. He was leading us on the court masterfully. And its ironic to me how most of the same people who want steph gone are the same ones who see Jamal Crawford as this magically improved player because he played well during games that meant nothing. But Yes, i think overall, it is lazy logic, its not quite like saying 'he's a loser' but its slightly more developed than that, and there is some logic to it, just not many details, which is why I call it lazy.
McK1
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4/22/2006  9:46 PM
Rod Thorn on Star:

"Thank god for Stephon Marbury. Without him we wouldn't have Jason Kidd"
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
djsunyc
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4/22/2006  9:57 PM
killa, time and time again, you've said that all the stuff in the papers, all the stuff with marbury and his teammates, all the stuff with marbury and lb, all of that stuff was drama and you dismissed it. b/c you dismiss it, and accepting he's not a leader, you think everything is cool with him. but all of that matters. i remember being called a drama queen and going nuts for nothing back in november and december...but it turns out it was 100% on the money.

nobody said jamal was a better player than steph, nor did anyone say he was more talented. but what jamal has done is change his game for the coach. but steph resisted.

but most steph fans don't care about that. they just keep saying he's the best player on the team. NO SH T. he is the best player, everybody agrees to that. just b/c he's the best player ON the team doesn't mean he's the best player FOR this team. big difference. under the "rebuild" with a new coach that is trying to implement a new system, he looked for steph to help the situation...which he didn't.

and through this whole season, his true personality came out. do you really think that he's the type of player you want around here while we're trying to "rebuild"? if the answer to that question is yes, then we can pretty much agree to disagree and move on.

this was his chance to validate all his fans and to silence all his critics...but he blew it.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 04-22-2006 10:00 PM]
Killa4luv
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4/22/2006  9:58 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

i think that's what many don't understand...people that support lb ARE holding him accountable for the win/loss record this year...but he's the LEAST of our problems. 23-59 is not a reflection of us having an awful coach. it's more a reflection of the roster makeup.
This is the first fallacy. That record IS a a reflection of awful coaching!! If another less talented coach could get us more wins than guess what? It is the coaching. If the previous team was less talented and just as flawed and did better, than it is the coaching. Sorry, but thats the bottom line, this is truly astonishing to me to see you twist every which way to deny that.
coaching this team to it's "strengths" may get it to 38-40 wins and an 8th seed. but then, what that does is fool us to think that we just need to make one more trade to get over the hump. when that "hump" is not a championship. that "hump" is just making the playoffs year after year but not seriously making a run at a title. that's more important to me, and probably for the others that don't rail on lb. we're better off building via the lb route and then trying to upgrade the talent later...b/c it's the lb type of philosophy that championship teams are built on.
First of all, if we all agree that a team is good enough to get the playoffs, and they fall horribly short, soemthing is awry. The roster isn't the best, but its much better than the record so for you to parrot what LB is saying now, is ridiculous. Players on playoff teams tend to have higher value than those that aren't. We could have made the playoffs, assess what needed to be done, and make the proper adjustments. Thats the only way it has ever been done, so I really don't understand why making the playoffs is fools gold. Every team that has ever won a championship has undergone that process. Go to the playoffs, get knocked out early. Tweak, trade, draft, sign, and try agaain. Its the only way it has ever been done. Perhaps you think winning 20 games, devaluing every player on your squad, and complaining publicly about the roster after every game is the way a championship, but I don't see it. The players all seem less effective and ALL of them have played worse than the year before. This is not how you win a championship, and its not even how you effectively get rid of players and get decent value in return for them. At least if we won our 38-40 games, we'd be trading from a position of strength. LB screwed up big time, stop making excuses for him. Even if he wanted to change the roster totally, he didn't coach properly to be able to do that effectively. He just plain screwed up.
djsunyc
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4/22/2006  10:07 PM
Sorry, but thats the bottom line, this is truly astonishing to me to see you twist every which way to deny that.

it's the same way you twist every which way to deny that steph's attitude hurt us more than help this year. (and every other franchise he's been associated with. he's not a misunderstood soul. he just has no clue.)
Tweak, trade, draft, sign, and try agaain

the word tweak is exactly fool's gold.

that's it. this year i posted like djsunyc. next year, imma start posting like djstarnyc.
holfresh
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4/22/2006  10:17 PM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by holfresh:



I totally disagree with this assessment...It was impossible to put a roster out there in two years after Layden's reign that made perfect sense...Impossible


you KNOW this how?

Fist off Isiah had all his draft picks, Dyess' ending contract, Kurts ending contract. Instead of trying to land every star on the market he could've did what GM's like Billy Knight and Ainge did and use the ending deals of those players to facilitate trades and pick up no. 1's in the process.

then there is his use of the MLE: Baker and James. The list of players signed for the MLE in 04 and 05 makes giving that money to those 2 a criminal act of lunacy.

Isiah could've rebuilt from the beginning. He traded a pick in the Howard draft for Steph plus a pick is still owed and steadily losing protection. He did OK in 05. He trades 2 more firsts for fat ass Curry.



Hang on a sec, I think I'm missing something here...Are you saying the Knicks could have been under the salarly cap, When was that going to happen because he met a cap of 93 mil here and I know that Kurt's contract was only for about 6 mil per...Please explain through your mathematics how the Knicks were getting it down to 44-47 mil in the two years since Ishiah has been here????
McK1
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4/22/2006  10:24 PM
Posted by holfresh:





Hang on a sec, I think I'm missing something here...Are you saying the Knicks could have been under the salarly cap, When was that going to happen because he met a cap of 93 mil here and I know that Kurt's contract was only for about 6 mil per...Please explain through your mathematics how the Knicks were getting it down to 44-47 mil in the two years since Ishiah has been here????


seems you're missing alot beginning with reading comprehension skills

never once in my post did I say NY could've been under the cap in 2 years. What I did I say is he could've chosen a different route in restructuring the roster.

and NY could've theoretically been under the cap in 07, maybe sooner with deals geared towards moving contracts instead of all his which did nothing but acquire
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
holfresh
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4/22/2006  10:52 PM

Ok....I agree with that...Does it matter to you that this is not the route that Dolan wants to take...Dolan wants his teams in the playoffs annually...Does that matter to you at all???

Let's say that Dolan went along with this plan, would you have given Isiah a free ride for 4 years while he got under the cap???...New York and Dolan would not put up with the Knicks being bad for 4 years for the sake of getting under the cap and signing a free agent...Never happen here...




[Edited by - holfresh on 04-22-2006 11:05 PM]
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