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channing frye - untouchable
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fishmike
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1/11/2007  4:00 PM
Frye is a much better player than these #s show, but my good. Look at the position difference between center and pf. Opposing PFs score 30 ppg (per48) against him. Opposing centers score 10 less. Opposing PFs also shoot a high %. Also look at Frye's rebounding and blocking. He doesnt rebound or block shots at PF. At center he's quite good at it.

http://www.82games.com/0607/06NYK12C.HTM

Same as last year when he was a ROY candidate before getting hurt:
http://www.82games.com/0506/05NYK18C.HTM

These stats arent the end all be all, but they illustrate my point. Frye does everything better at center. Everything. Frye also defends the center position far better than PF.

At some point you just have to call a spade a spade. He's a center. He need to play center. Either feature him off the bench behind Curry or see what the market is for him. 6'11 250 is quite big enough to play center in this league.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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oohah
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1/11/2007  4:02 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Lee wont ever have a bad stretch because his game and production is based on hard work on the floor. Until other teams figure out a way to get him to not play hard (hookers on the road?) Lee wont ever have those kinds of stretchs. Lee doesnt need set plays, a system or certain looks or opponents to produce.

Frye is playing out of position. How long do we have to watch him suck it up before we realize he's not a center? Center in high school, center in 4 years of college, and his NBA #s show he plays well at center and lousy at PF.


Never Ever?

oohah


Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
fishmike
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1/11/2007  4:19 PM
oohah, at what point does this become bad management?

How much evidence do we need to see before we decide to try something different? You tell me.... We are looking at what? 80-100 NBA games?

I havent said the only option is to trade or dump him. Eddy is still fat and maybe cutting his minutes a bit gets him working harder on both ends of the floor. Play Eddy 30 and give Frye the other 18 minutes at center where he can be featured off the bench. That will help his growth much more than having him stand 18 feet from the basket where he doesnt rebound, doesnt have a chance to block shots and does nothing but launch long jumpers.

I would think a good coach would be able to see Frye clearly excels playing center and clearly struggles playing PF. The coach can either keep forcing the issue because of "never ever" or he can put guys in a position to suceed where they have proven they can do so.

What would you rather see?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Solace
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1/11/2007  4:29 PM
Posted by fishmike:

oohah, at what point does this become bad management?

How much evidence do we need to see before we decide to try something different? You tell me.... We are looking at what? 80-100 NBA games?

I havent said the only option is to trade or dump him. Eddy is still fat and maybe cutting his minutes a bit gets him working harder on both ends of the floor. Play Eddy 30 and give Frye the other 18 minutes at center where he can be featured off the bench. That will help his growth much more than having him stand 18 feet from the basket where he doesnt rebound, doesnt have a chance to block shots and does nothing but launch long jumpers.

I would think a good coach would be able to see Frye clearly excels playing center and clearly struggles playing PF. The coach can either keep forcing the issue because of "never ever" or he can put guys in a position to suceed where they have proven they can do so.

What would you rather see?

No chance they cut Eddy's minutes. Part of this season has been showcasing Eddy Curry. The fans who are still watching are eating it up (based on this board). It's the only thing that's kept Isiah from being fired, I think. While it makes logical sense, we're driving up Curry's perceived value, making him out to be Shaq-lite or Ewing-lite. That's what it's come to, and a lot of people are so desperate to see the Knicks succeed that they will buy into Curry being the new savior.

The reality is we don't have a savior, have no plan to acquire one and we probably have another two years of Isiah, because he has the Knicks playing 'just well enough', combined with Curry's progress, to not get fired.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Killa4luv
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1/11/2007  4:44 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by fishmike:

oohah, at what point does this become bad management?

How much evidence do we need to see before we decide to try something different? You tell me.... We are looking at what? 80-100 NBA games?

I havent said the only option is to trade or dump him. Eddy is still fat and maybe cutting his minutes a bit gets him working harder on both ends of the floor. Play Eddy 30 and give Frye the other 18 minutes at center where he can be featured off the bench. That will help his growth much more than having him stand 18 feet from the basket where he doesnt rebound, doesnt have a chance to block shots and does nothing but launch long jumpers.

I would think a good coach would be able to see Frye clearly excels playing center and clearly struggles playing PF. The coach can either keep forcing the issue because of "never ever" or he can put guys in a position to suceed where they have proven they can do so.

What would you rather see?

No chance they cut Eddy's minutes. Part of this season has been showcasing Eddy Curry. The fans who are still watching are eating it up (based on this board). It's the only thing that's kept Isiah from being fired, I think. While it makes logical sense, we're driving up Curry's perceived value, making him out to be Shaq-lite or Ewing-lite. That's what it's come to, and a lot of people are so desperate to see the Knicks succeed that they will buy into Curry being the new savior.

The reality is we don't have a savior, have no plan to acquire one and we probably have another two years of Isiah, because he has the Knicks playing 'just well enough', combined with Curry's progress, to not get fired.

Are you not impressed with curry's progress and performance this season? You make it sound like him becoming a dominant force is fake or something. Its real, he rally is a lot for teams to deal with. You don't have to like isush or the trade that brought curry here but you have to like our young guys especially curry, he is forcing teams to double and triple team him. We haven't had that since lj was here. Curry isn't Ewing, but he's still a good center in a league that doesn't have many.
kam77
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1/11/2007  5:04 PM
"The reality is we don't have a savior, have no plan to acquire one and we probably have another two years of Isiah, because he has the Knicks playing 'just well enough', combined with Curry's progress, to not get fired."

Man it must be tough to be you and believe what you believe yet still show up and support the team everyday. Hats off to you! I like Curry as our starting Center and I like Frye getting all the backup minutes. I think Isiah still envisions Rasheed Wallace when he looks at Frye.

Very interesting to see what Portland does with LaMarcus Aldridge as i find them to have similar skillsets.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
Solace
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1/11/2007  5:06 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by fishmike:

oohah, at what point does this become bad management?

How much evidence do we need to see before we decide to try something different? You tell me.... We are looking at what? 80-100 NBA games?

I havent said the only option is to trade or dump him. Eddy is still fat and maybe cutting his minutes a bit gets him working harder on both ends of the floor. Play Eddy 30 and give Frye the other 18 minutes at center where he can be featured off the bench. That will help his growth much more than having him stand 18 feet from the basket where he doesnt rebound, doesnt have a chance to block shots and does nothing but launch long jumpers.

I would think a good coach would be able to see Frye clearly excels playing center and clearly struggles playing PF. The coach can either keep forcing the issue because of "never ever" or he can put guys in a position to suceed where they have proven they can do so.

What would you rather see?

No chance they cut Eddy's minutes. Part of this season has been showcasing Eddy Curry. The fans who are still watching are eating it up (based on this board). It's the only thing that's kept Isiah from being fired, I think. While it makes logical sense, we're driving up Curry's perceived value, making him out to be Shaq-lite or Ewing-lite. That's what it's come to, and a lot of people are so desperate to see the Knicks succeed that they will buy into Curry being the new savior.

The reality is we don't have a savior, have no plan to acquire one and we probably have another two years of Isiah, because he has the Knicks playing 'just well enough', combined with Curry's progress, to not get fired.

Are you not impressed with curry's progress and performance this season? You make it sound like him becoming a dominant force is fake or something. Its real, he rally is a lot for teams to deal with. You don't have to like isush or the trade that brought curry here but you have to like our young guys especially curry, he is forcing teams to double and triple team him. We haven't had that since lj was here. Curry isn't Ewing, but he's still a good center in a league that doesn't have many.

Actually I am impressed with Curry's progress... on offense. He's really asserting himself. His defense really bothers me, though. I wouldn't mind trading some of his offensive prowess and improving his defense, because it's very poor.

But, yes, Curry is one of the bright spots of the team, so what I posted wasn't meant to knock him.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
TheGame
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1/11/2007  5:08 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by fishmike:

oohah, at what point does this become bad management?

How much evidence do we need to see before we decide to try something different? You tell me.... We are looking at what? 80-100 NBA games?

I havent said the only option is to trade or dump him. Eddy is still fat and maybe cutting his minutes a bit gets him working harder on both ends of the floor. Play Eddy 30 and give Frye the other 18 minutes at center where he can be featured off the bench. That will help his growth much more than having him stand 18 feet from the basket where he doesnt rebound, doesnt have a chance to block shots and does nothing but launch long jumpers.

I would think a good coach would be able to see Frye clearly excels playing center and clearly struggles playing PF. The coach can either keep forcing the issue because of "never ever" or he can put guys in a position to suceed where they have proven they can do so.

What would you rather see?

No chance they cut Eddy's minutes. Part of this season has been showcasing Eddy Curry. The fans who are still watching are eating it up (based on this board). It's the only thing that's kept Isiah from being fired, I think. While it makes logical sense, we're driving up Curry's perceived value, making him out to be Shaq-lite or Ewing-lite. That's what it's come to, and a lot of people are so desperate to see the Knicks succeed that they will buy into Curry being the new savior.

The reality is we don't have a savior, have no plan to acquire one and we probably have another two years of Isiah, because he has the Knicks playing 'just well enough', combined with Curry's progress, to not get fired.

Curry is a long way from being a savior but I have seen signs of him becoming a really good player. You have to remember that he is still just a kid. He is maturing and learning what it takes to be a dominate player in this league and it is clear that IT and his staff have been able to get more out of him than his previous coaches. This team is improving and in two years, our really bad contracts (Marbury and Francis) will be coming off the books. I see a solid future for this team with its frontcourt. I would like to see it develop for another season before any changes are made. I think IT is good at getting players to grow in their games and I think the 2007-2008 version of this frontcourt is going to be much better than the version we see now.


[Edited by - TheGame on 01-11-2007 5:21 PM]
Trust the Process
Solace
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1/11/2007  5:10 PM
Posted by TheGame:

Curry is a long way from being a savior but I have seen signs of him becoming a really good player. You have to remember that he is still just a kid. He is maturing and learning what it takes to be a dominate player in this league and it is clear that IT and his staff have been able to get more out of him than his previous coaches. This team is improving and in two year, are really bad contracts (Marbury and Francis) will be coming off the books. I see a solid future for this team with its frontcourt. I would like to see it develop for another season before any changes are made. I think IT is good at getting players to grow in their games and I think the 2007-2008 version of this frontcourt is going to be much better than the version we see now.

Curry is in his sixth year in the league and he's hardly a "kid" anymore. He's 24 now. He's going to hit his ceiling within the next few years. Only Eddy can determine what that ceiling is.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
oohah
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1/11/2007  5:22 PM
Posted by fishmike:

oohah, at what point does this become bad management?

How much evidence do we need to see before we decide to try something different? You tell me.... We are looking at what? 80-100 NBA games?

I havent said the only option is to trade or dump him. Eddy is still fat and maybe cutting his minutes a bit gets him working harder on both ends of the floor. Play Eddy 30 and give Frye the other 18 minutes at center where he can be featured off the bench. That will help his growth much more than having him stand 18 feet from the basket where he doesnt rebound, doesnt have a chance to block shots and does nothing but launch long jumpers.

I would think a good coach would be able to see Frye clearly excels playing center and clearly struggles playing PF. The coach can either keep forcing the issue because of "never ever" or he can put guys in a position to suceed where they have proven they can do so.

What would you rather see?

Fish, as no one will let me forget, I predicted a big season for Frye. I still think he will have a pretty good season when all is said and done.

First: I think it was Bonn who found out that Frye was automatically classified as a center whenever Curry left the game. I don't think when Curry leaves the game Frye automatically becomes a center. I do think he becomes the featured front court player and has shown he is good at scoring and other aspects of the game when he is featured.

I based my prediction on the belief that Isiah would run the offense through Frye, whom I consider to be much a more versatile offensive player than Curry. I thought Frye would be featured. I was wrong. Actually, he is the #4 option in the starting lineup.

Again, what I think happens during the times you say Frye became center is he becomes featured. I don't think Frye ever becomes a center even if he is playing the five, because he is still the same player, and his game is a forward's game. We've gone through this before, but I don't think Frye has a center's game. To me, a center is player who plays around the basket almost all the time. Many excellent centers have broken that mold including our beloved Ewing, but that is why the term "True Center" has evolved into the basketball jargon.

My feeling is that Isiah has not mismanaged by not making Frye "the center", or the way I characterize it "featured", because Eddie Curry has become a real scoring force, and I think Frye is learning to do what has been asked of him pretty well.

Frye will continue to grow as a player I am confident of that.

This coaching decision should be judged by wins near the end of the season or after it.

oohah



Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
misterearl
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1/11/2007  5:22 PM
2009 HEADLINE

Eddy Curry Hits Hits NBA Ceiling At 27 Years Old

sheesh
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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1/11/2007  5:25 PM
Frye has the rare combination of athletic ability, high level of intelligence, intuitive baskteball skills, excellent work habits and and a rock solid family life - that is rare in the league.

Keep him
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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1/11/2007  5:26 PM
besides, you can't teach height

the bonus is he's 6'11 and best friends with "you know who"

beautiful
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Bonn1997
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1/11/2007  6:17 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by fishmike:

oohah, at what point does this become bad management?

How much evidence do we need to see before we decide to try something different? You tell me.... We are looking at what? 80-100 NBA games?

I havent said the only option is to trade or dump him. Eddy is still fat and maybe cutting his minutes a bit gets him working harder on both ends of the floor. Play Eddy 30 and give Frye the other 18 minutes at center where he can be featured off the bench. That will help his growth much more than having him stand 18 feet from the basket where he doesnt rebound, doesnt have a chance to block shots and does nothing but launch long jumpers.

I would think a good coach would be able to see Frye clearly excels playing center and clearly struggles playing PF. The coach can either keep forcing the issue because of "never ever" or he can put guys in a position to suceed where they have proven they can do so.

What would you rather see?

No chance they cut Eddy's minutes. Part of this season has been showcasing Eddy Curry. The fans who are still watching are eating it up (based on this board). It's the only thing that's kept Isiah from being fired, I think. While it makes logical sense, we're driving up Curry's perceived value, making him out to be Shaq-lite or Ewing-lite. That's what it's come to, and a lot of people are so desperate to see the Knicks succeed that they will buy into Curry being the new savior.

That's one of the best posts in the forum.
izybx
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1/11/2007  6:20 PM
Yeah Curry is a role player. That role just happens to be dominating.
Beat the Evil Empire. BEAT MIAMI
martin
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1/11/2007  6:32 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Frye has the rare combination of athletic ability, high level of intelligence, intuitive baskteball skills, excellent work habits and and a rock solid family life - that is rare in the league.

Keep him

I like Frye but don't agree with athletic ability and intuitive basketball skills (compared to the average NBA player). He has slow feet to boot. But excellent work habits and heart can surely cure all of the above.
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islesfan
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1/11/2007  7:06 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by fishmike:

oohah, at what point does this become bad management?

How much evidence do we need to see before we decide to try something different? You tell me.... We are looking at what? 80-100 NBA games?

I havent said the only option is to trade or dump him. Eddy is still fat and maybe cutting his minutes a bit gets him working harder on both ends of the floor. Play Eddy 30 and give Frye the other 18 minutes at center where he can be featured off the bench. That will help his growth much more than having him stand 18 feet from the basket where he doesnt rebound, doesnt have a chance to block shots and does nothing but launch long jumpers.

I would think a good coach would be able to see Frye clearly excels playing center and clearly struggles playing PF. The coach can either keep forcing the issue because of "never ever" or he can put guys in a position to suceed where they have proven they can do so.

What would you rather see?

No chance they cut Eddy's minutes. Part of this season has been showcasing Eddy Curry. The fans who are still watching are eating it up (based on this board). It's the only thing that's kept Isiah from being fired, I think. While it makes logical sense, we're driving up Curry's perceived value, making him out to be Shaq-lite or Ewing-lite. That's what it's come to, and a lot of people are so desperate to see the Knicks succeed that they will buy into Curry being the new savior.

The reality is we don't have a savior, have no plan to acquire one and we probably have another two years of Isiah, because he has the Knicks playing 'just well enough', combined with Curry's progress, to not get fired.

I totally agree. Unfortunately I think it's already a done deal that Isiah will be back. This whole, "He has one year to show significant progress" is total BS. It's just a ruse since the basis for comparison was always going to be last year's disaster.

I started a thread a couple months ago that Curry's progress could possibly supercede any debate about the Knicks record or whether they make the playoffs or not. It's pathetic the lack of expectations that Isiah has been allowed to set.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
gunsnewing
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1/11/2007  7:42 PM
Frye moves in the post are so mythodoical
misterearl
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1/11/2007  8:00 PM
Martin - does Tim Duncan have quick feet?

Or are his paint-by-numbers fundamentals effective?
once a knick always a knick
martin
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1/11/2007  8:01 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Martin - does Tim Duncan have quick feet?

Or are his paint-by-numbers fundamentals effective?

TD has good footwork, CF does not.
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channing frye - untouchable

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