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Where does Stephon rank amongst the NBA's best PG's?
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ultknicks524
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2/11/2006  11:26 PM
Im not making **** up. Look it up. After the Finals series when Robinson's huge salary came off the cap after he retired and when Ginobili and Parker were both in their rookie contracts, they offered Kidd the max to come play for them.
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holfresh
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2/11/2006  11:28 PM
Posted by ultknicks524:
Posted by holfresh:

I would just love to surround these guys with the same talent and see how things pan out...It's not taken personally at all...I just think lots of people are selling this guy short and he is better than alot of people thinks he is...And you can have that shot point guard who plays in Jersey, This is a player that fits into the running system really well... Don't forget he had a career before he came to the Nets, how did he manage in those systems...I would have love to have seen him in San Antonio where the team isn't running..How has he feared in the playoffs where it's a half court game? where his shooting prowess has been exposed...I'll see where he will be in just 2 short years....

You dont know **** about basketball. Kidd was the main reason the Nets went to the Finals two straight years. He averaged a triple double in the playoffs. Look it up. Kidd couldnt play in the playoffs right? Thats why the Spurs were basically sucking his **** and offering him $100M to come play for them huh? I would trade Marbury's sorry ass for Kidd in a NY minute...even now.






[Edited by - ultknicks524 on 02-11-2006 11:16 PM]



EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. -- Jason Kidd is shooting poorly. Jason Kidd can't stop Tony Parker. Jason Kidd is playing too many minutes. Jason this. Jason that.

Hey, stop pointing your fingers at the New Jersey Nets' star point guard. While he hasn't lived up to his billing as the world's best point guard during the NBA Finals thus far, the Nets have a much bigger problem. And that is everyone else wearing a Nets uniform besides Jason Kidd.

Richard Jefferson
Richard Jefferson is only shooting 35.5 percent from the field in the Finals.
Kidd is averaging 17.3 points, 8.0 assists and 6.0 rebounds in the series. Not bad statistics. But he is also shooting just 35 percent from the field and has missed 11 of 14 3-point attempts.




Facts bro......Stop making Sh$t up.....When has Jason ever averaged a triple double in the playoffs..Look at that article.......Parker was killing him......
ultknicks524
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2/11/2006  11:34 PM
Jason Kidd

2001/2002 Playoffs - 20 games - 19.6 PPG/8.2 RPG/9.1 APG
2002/2003 Playoffs - 20 games - 20.1 PPG/7.7 RPG/8.2 APG

Basketballreference





[Edited by - ultknicks524 on 02-11-2006 11:36 PM]
holfresh
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2/11/2006  11:47 PM
Posted by ultknicks524:

Jason Kidd

2001/2002 Playoffs - 20 games - 19.6 PPG/8.2 RPG/9.1 APG
2002/2003 Playoffs - 20 games - 20.1 PPG/7.7 RPG/8.2 APG

Basketballreference





[Edited by - ultknicks524 on 02-11-2006 11:36 PM]



That's not a triple double.....Also check the shooting percentage....Getting killed on D as well...
TMS
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2/12/2006  3:16 PM
Posted by holfresh:
I would just love to surround these guys with the same talent and see how things pan out...It's not taken personally at all...I just think lots of people are selling this guy short and he is better than alot of people thinks he is...And you can have that shot point guard who plays in Jersey, This is a player that fits into the running system really well... Don't forget he had a career before he came to the Nets, how did he manage in those systems...I would have love to have seen him in San Antonio where the team isn't running..How has he feared in the playoffs where it's a half court game? where his shooting prowess has been exposed...I'll see where he will be in just 2 short years....

fair enough... like i said, i'm not trying to make Marbury out to be some scrub... i believe he has the TALENT to be in the top 3 PG's in the game... but he isn't a leader... as for Jason Kidd fitting into a running style offense... he would MAKE san antonio into a running team just by the way he's constantly pushing the ball upcourt on every possession looking to get easy points in transition... big men have a tendency to run up the court when they know they're going to get the ball passed to them in a spot to score... i'm not saying Marbury doesn't pass the ball, but many times i've seen big guys running the floor & cutting into the lane w/their arms up in the air, only to be ignored... after a while, those guys stop wanting to hustle down court if they're not going to get the ball passed to them... of course, it also doesn't help when you have out of shape, lazy bigmen on your team like Jerome James, & to a degree, Eddy Curry.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
OldFan
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2/12/2006  8:53 PM




You can go back in my post and read...let me know where I once...Just Once said that Marbury is a winner....Show me that post.....Again, If your going to say Marbs is a loser and classify him as a loser given the bad teams he has been on, then also include the Ewings,Barkley,Stockton,Mailman,etc who has not won a champoinship...Hell, all those guys played with all-starts and all time greats,
Yet won nothing!!!
Just maybe one or two guys better...I would love to see Marbs on a good team...Marbs is one of the few guys you can ask to do anything for your team on this list....

You said there might be one or two guys better then Marbs at PG. So what you making the case there is only one winner point guard in the whole NBA?

As far as Ewing, Malone etc. I disagree with your premise that a championship is the only way to evaluate a player. By that definition Robert Horry is better they Walt Frazier, Wilt, Bird, Magic along with Ewing, Barkley, Malone... It's just too one dimensional of a measurement and disregards the fact that basketball is a team sport. That's why I find it so amusing that you judge Ewing and Malone, Barkley so harshly while Marbs is the 2nd or 3rd best point guard and hasn't even won a playoff - series in ten years. Seems like a double standard.
holfresh
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2/13/2006  4:02 AM
Posted by OldFan:





You can go back in my post and read...let me know where I once...Just Once said that Marbury is a winner....Show me that post.....Again, If your going to say Marbs is a loser and classify him as a loser given the bad teams he has been on, then also include the Ewings,Barkley,Stockton,Mailman,etc who has not won a champoinship...Hell, all those guys played with all-starts and all time greats,
Yet won nothing!!!
Just maybe one or two guys better...I would love to see Marbs on a good team...Marbs is one of the few guys you can ask to do anything for your team on this list....

You said there might be one or two guys better then Marbs at PG. So what you making the case there is only one winner point guard in the whole NBA?

As far as Ewing, Malone etc. I disagree with your premise that a championship is the only way to evaluate a player. By that definition Robert Horry is better they Walt Frazier, Wilt, Bird, Magic along with Ewing, Barkley, Malone... It's just too one dimensional of a measurement and disregards the fact that basketball is a team sport. That's why I find it so amusing that you judge Ewing and Malone, Barkley so harshly while Marbs is the 2nd or 3rd best point guard and hasn't even won a playoff - series in ten years. Seems like a double standard.




Waa??
holfresh
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2/13/2006  4:09 AM

Oldman,



You are taking pieces of what I am saying an totally twisting it to suit your arguments...Did you work for the Republican National Comittee in 2004 that ran that masterful campaign against Kerry....In all your replys, you are answering your own questions, which has nothing to do with my point of view or the opinion I am trying to get across.....

[Edited by - holfresh on 02-13-2006 04:09 AM]

[Edited by - holfresh on 02-13-2006 04:11 AM]
OldFan
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2/13/2006  6:48 AM
Posted by holfresh:


Oldman,



You are taking pieces of what I am saying an totally twisting it to suit your arguments...Did you work for the Republican National Comittee in 2004 that ran that masterful campaign against Kerry....In all your replys, you are answering your own questions, which has nothing to do with my point of view or the opinion I am trying to get across.....

[Edited by - holfresh on 02-13-2006 04:09 AM]

[Edited by - holfresh on 02-13-2006 04:11 AM]


Hey take it easy. I have no problem with the "OLDMAN" label - but don't call be a Republican.

Don't see how I'm twisting what you're saying. You're knocking a lot of players that have gotten their teams deep into the playoffs. But seem pretty sure a guy who has never won even a single playoff series is one of the top three pgs in the league. I don't agree. I think he has the talent to be - but he's never put it together. I think it's more then the players around him.

Take Kidd - you did mention him didn't you.

Kidd who is not as good as he use to be is a better defender, better passer, better rebounder and better leader - even now.



holfresh
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2/13/2006  1:42 PM
Hey Oldman, I am old as well...hahahha...

That is my whole agruement...Steph cannot be judged as he never had the talent around that guys like Kidd,Billips.or Nash has....In recent years, Kidds has played with 3 all-stars, Billips played with 4 if you count McDyss, Nash had 2 potentially 3 because Joe Johnson is playing on that level...Also don't get me wrong, I do think the Mailman,Stockton,Barkley,Ewing are all time greats as well..
I think Ewing is alot like Steph...He never had that other player to get to know...You can say KG maybe but they just didnt play long enough together....How can Steph be judged when players around him have been playing sub-par? How can he be judged given the talent around him..Please note I did not say he is a winner and those others are losers....My point was that if you can get down on Steph for not winning playoff games when he had no one playing with him, then it should be fair for me to say some of the all time greats are in the same boat as they have not won anyting either...

Playoff games?? Please....Playoff games give you great memories but championships means everything...U can't find a bigger Ewing fan than me....If Ewing ever won in this town, he would have been in the organization this day....No question...It matters...He would never have pulled that trade me stunt that crushed this franchise for years to come....Because of that I don't want to see him here for a long time.....That move just crushed the Knicks....We are still paying for it.....Ewing is not welcomed here at the moment.....

Just judge everyone on a level playing field is my point...thats it....

I do find all this amusing as well......

Later

P.S., seems you're a little touchy about that Republican thing huh>>.hahhah
djsunyc
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2/13/2006  1:47 PM
Posted by holfresh:

Hey Oldman, I am old as well...hahahha...

That is my whole agruement...Steph cannot be judged as he never had the talent around that guys like Kidd,Billips.or Nash has....In recent years, Kidds has played with 3 all-stars, Billips played with 4 if you count McDyss, Nash had 2 potentially 3 because Joe Johnson is playing on that level...Also don't get me wrong, I do think the Mailman,Stockton,Barkley,Ewing are all time greats as well..
I think Ewing is alot like Steph...He never had that other player to get to know...You can say KG maybe but they just didnt play long enough together....How can Steph be judged when players around him have been playing sub-par? How can he be judged given the talent around him..Please note I did not say he is a winner and those others are losers....My point was that if you can get down on Steph for not winning playoff games when he had no one playing with him, then it should be fair for me to say some of the all time greats are in the same boat as they have not won anyting either...

Playoff games?? Please....Playoff games give you great memories but championships means everything...U can't find a bigger Ewing fan than me....If Ewing ever won in this town, he would have been in the organization this day....No question...It matters...He would never have pulled that trade me stunt that crushed this franchise for years to come....Because of that I don't want to see him here for a long time.....That move just crushed the Knicks....We are still paying for it.....Ewing is not welcomed here at the moment.....

Just judge everyone on a level playing field is my point...thats it....

I do find all this amusing as well......

Later

P.S., seems you're a little touchy about that Republican thing huh>>.hahhah





to an extent, steph also made the bed he's lying in now. he has alienated teammates and coaches which has been widely documented. but forget that, he wanted out of minny. so he left one all star. he didn't buy into d'antoni so they decided to move him. that's amare and marion. so, whatever the circumstances were, he is where he is today for a reason, some of it was his own doing.
Bonn1997
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2/13/2006  1:50 PM
to an extent, steph also made the bed he's lying in now. he has alienated teammates and coaches which has been widely documented. but forget that, he wanted out of minny. so he left one all star. he didn't buy into d'antoni so they decided to move him. that's amare and marion. so, whatever the circumstances were, he is where he is today for a reason, some of it was his own doing.
I'm a Steph supporter but there definitely is truth to what you're saying. That doesn't mean Steph deserves now to be playing on a terrible team during his prime years, though. I also think Steph has matured a lot (though not as much as we all wish he would) since his Min and even Pho days.
Allanfan20
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2/13/2006  2:17 PM
Of course he has matured. And of course Stephon deserves better than what he has now. In fact, I just don't quite see how he's a terrible leader. Again, I am not a Marbury lover, but he's done absolutely all he can this season and has really amped up the D'. If he sticks around and can at least keep his legs healthy, and if the team improves somehow, someway, then Marbury can get better fate. It would be ashame, however, if he had to finish his career here, and we didn't improve at all.
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MS
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2/13/2006  2:30 PM
Some of you people have to be on drugs....

Everytime Stephon gets traded a teamate mentions they didn't like playing with him as much as their new point guard....
he is playing with Kurt Thomas, Diaw, Jones, Bell, and Marion who is a very good player and making everyone of them better

Steve Nash right now is the best pg in the NBA and is going to win the MVP this year.....stephs not even in his league

J Kidd is better and has been better throughout his career and has made everyone around him better
Paul is in his first year and has a team with role players in the playoffs and above 500
Billups is a good defender and always makes the big play which Marbury rarely does...

Parker is better right now, I know he has Tim Duncan but he
Bibby is the better scorer and has performed in the clutch which steph has not

I would rather have every one of these guys and would put him in the class with Arenas, and Francis
holfresh
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2/13/2006  2:52 PM
Posted by MS:

Some of you people have to be on drugs....

Everytime Stephon gets traded a teamate mentions they didn't like playing with him as much as their new point guard....
he is playing with Kurt Thomas, Diaw, Jones, Bell, and Marion who is a very good player and making everyone of them better

Steve Nash right now is the best pg in the NBA and is going to win the MVP this year.....stephs not even in his league

J Kidd is better and has been better throughout his career and has made everyone around him better
Paul is in his first year and has a team with role players in the playoffs and above 500
Billups is a good defender and always makes the big play which Marbury rarely does...

Parker is better right now, I know he has Tim Duncan but he
Bibby is the better scorer and has performed in the clutch which steph has not

I would rather have every one of these guys and would put him in the class with Arenas, and Francis



Well I have to disagree with Nash being the best pg in the league...I think Iverson is and has been the best in the league the last few years....Before you hit the ceiling....Iverson can average 10 assist per game if he wants to...Because of his unique talent, he has to score...You look at Nash's career numbers versus Iverson...Nash avg one more assist per game in his career...ONE MORE ASSIST..Nash is in a great system where when he passes the first guy shoots the ball...Your assist number is going to be higher with that game plan....I do think Nash is playing great at this stage in his career but Iverson is the best.....Iverson is doing what his team needs to win....You put allstar players around Iverson, you will see a different player....By the way,have you seen Iverson in all-star games where he is mostly dishing than scoring..The guy has won at least 2 all-star MVP because of his won play and how he involve others.....I think Iverson like Marbury needs to score on for their teams to be successful and people complain that the players are not making others better...The people around them aren't good to begin with...How can they make them better...And please, save it with Kurt Thomas..He isn't considered an all-star.....


As for people not being happy about playing with Marbs....Q1 isn't happy playing with Marbs..What's your call on that one....Thomas wasn't happy playing with Marbs...Tell me form what you see on the court...Who is playing harder and who gives more effort in the games than Marbs...Those two bums..unbelievable...

[Edited by - holfresh on 02-13-2006 2:54 PM]
MS
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2/13/2006  2:58 PM
Usually you don't try to fight your point guard and beat his ass if your happy with him....(TT sucked but questioned him, Sweetney had similiar comments, KVH as well) A lot of people have a problem with his style

Bottom line Nash gets people the ball at the right times and in the flow of the offense, sure they run and gun but he gives it to these players in the flow of the offense...Great players don't have to tell you their great you should be able to decide for yourself

Where was the pg skills of Iverson on the Olympic team, I see your point and have watched him in All-Star games, but he fails to involve his teammates consistently, he can get to the rim or by anyone at will and is better than Steph obviously...
MS
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2/13/2006  3:03 PM
Ewing was a better player than Malone hands down, Ewing had this team on the cusp every year, and you can't do it all....93'94'99' all right there for the championship and had 97' and the brawl not happened the knicks would have gave the bulls an unreal playoff series you don't take a team to the conference finals 4 times and in the playoffs every year and then compare the man to Marbury....

Ewing was an amazing player that never really had his cast till the end....

You give him Stock and Horny they win an NBA title no questions asked....
holfresh
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2/13/2006  3:05 PM
Posted by MS:

Some of you people have to be on drugs....

Everytime Stephon gets traded a teamate mentions they didn't like playing with him as much as their new point guard....
he is playing with Kurt Thomas, Diaw, Jones, Bell, and Marion who is a very good player and making everyone of them better

Steve Nash right now is the best pg in the NBA and is going to win the MVP this year.....stephs not even in his league

J Kidd is better and has been better throughout his career and has made everyone around him better
Paul is in his first year and has a team with role players in the playoffs and above 500
Billups is a good defender and always makes the big play which Marbury rarely does...

Parker is better right now, I know he has Tim Duncan but he
Bibby is the better scorer and has performed in the clutch which steph has not

I would rather have every one of these guys and would put him in the class with Arenas, and Francis



Also..Nash plays no D...Nada....but it's OK right
Bibby plays no D..Thats ok too..
Parker is not a good defender....over the yrs Marbs has absolutly killed him head to head..
he paid Marbs back the last time they played....
My point is this, Marbs is held to a higher standard because you see him everyday,
Kidd better defensive days are behind him...
Players are always better on other teams, when they play for u , you see the deficiency.

[Edited by - holfresh on 02-13-2006 3:14 PM]
djsunyc
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2/13/2006  3:07 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by MS:

Some of you people have to be on drugs....

Everytime Stephon gets traded a teamate mentions they didn't like playing with him as much as their new point guard....
he is playing with Kurt Thomas, Diaw, Jones, Bell, and Marion who is a very good player and making everyone of them better

Steve Nash right now is the best pg in the NBA and is going to win the MVP this year.....stephs not even in his league

J Kidd is better and has been better throughout his career and has made everyone around him better
Paul is in his first year and has a team with role players in the playoffs and above 500
Billups is a good defender and always makes the big play which Marbury rarely does...

Parker is better right now, I know he has Tim Duncan but he
Bibby is the better scorer and has performed in the clutch which steph has not

I would rather have every one of these guys and would put him in the class with Arenas, and Francis



Also..Nash plays no D...Nada....but it's OK right
Bibby plays no D..Thats ok too..
Parker is not a good defender....over the yrs Marbs has absolutly killed him head to head..
he paid Marbs back the last time they played....
My point is this, Marbs is held to a higher standard because you see him everyday,
Kidd better defensive days are behind him...
Players are always better on other teams, when they play for u , you see the defiencies..

in all fairness, steph himself said that he wants to be judged by wins and nothing else.
holfresh
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2/13/2006  3:09 PM
Posted by MS:

Usually you don't try to fight your point guard and beat his ass if your happy with him....(TT sucked but questioned him, Sweetney had similiar comments, KVH as well) A lot of people have a problem with his style

Bottom line Nash gets people the ball at the right times and in the flow of the offense, sure they run and gun but he gives it to these players in the flow of the offense...Great players don't have to tell you their great you should be able to decide for yourself

Where was the pg skills of Iverson on the Olympic team, I see your point and have watched him in All-Star games, but he fails to involve his teammates consistently, he can get to the rim or by anyone at will and is better than Steph obviously...



Marbs was running the point there....Carmelo (13 mins a game)...Wade (15 mins a game)...LeBron(13 mins a game)....Amare (2 mins a game) in the olympics....Talk to your boy Larry about the olympics...But he blamed the players and the media bought it...
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Where does Stephon rank amongst the NBA's best PG's?
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