[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

growing pains for ariza + james (article)
Forum Index  ›  NY Knicks Forum
Page 4 of 5 « First‹ Previous 2  3  4  5 Next ›
« Reply To Topic
Author Thread
Masterplan
Posts: 21571
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 12/9/2002
Member: #362
1/6/2006  11:36 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Masterplan:

my last word-
frye 26.6 minutes, 28 games
robinson 19.2 minutes, 27 games
ariza 20.6 minutes, 27 games
lee 14.6 minutes, 18 games

aside from lee, the rest of the youngsters ARE playing. lee isn't doing too badly either. if you think the young guys are getting benched for good for every mistake, you're overreacting.

I agree but what about Butler?

i think jerome james ate him.
AUTOADVERT
jaydh
Posts: 23150
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/16/2001
Member: #96
1/6/2006  11:39 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Masterplan:

my last word-
frye 26.6 minutes, 28 games
robinson 19.2 minutes, 27 games
ariza 20.6 minutes, 27 games
lee 14.6 minutes, 18 games

aside from lee, the rest of the youngsters ARE playing. lee isn't doing too badly either. if you think the young guys are getting benched for good for every mistake, you're overreacting.

I agree but what about Butler?


i think butler would get the nod over JJ, at least i hope so. But its difficult to get him minutes when Curry and Frye are staying out of foul trouble and MoT is playing well.
oohah
Posts: 26600
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/7/2005
Member: #887
1/7/2006  12:09 AM
nitpicking. nice job.

I am simply correcting your misassessment of my statements in order to reach a fallacious conclusion. I write in specifics so persons can't just run where ever they want with my words--though they try to, and then I correct them.

nate and frye are getting significant minutes.

Frye's time has been played with for no apparent reason. Again, he has been the most consistent player on the team. NR gets his time but Lee doesn't? Doesn't make sense.

they're making mistakes but looking pretty damn good at times too.

As opposed to the vets who are simply looking bad.

you are no one to judge whether those guys should get 15 mpg or 20 or 25.

You are no one to tell me what I cannot judge. If I ever see you question a basketball professional in this forum you better believe I will remind you of that statement.

lee? a low pick learning a new position. not sure why he was inactive so much. but as many posters have tried to tell you, LB knows so much more than us about how ready he is, how he looks in practice, and all that jazz.

Yes, I am sure he has looked good in games and awful in practice. I am sure Rose is tearing him up.

and you may be overreacting to one game where he looked amazing. he looked much more human tonight, right? not the same offensive juggernaut?

Exaggerating my statements again in order to bolster your baseless argument? Good job. Hope you don't find this answer too nitpicky.

he'll have his ups and downs, that one game shows what we can look for down the road.

He is much better than Rose right now. That is my point. I never made him out to be anything great, just much better than Rose, and better than Ariza.

you sound like someone who just hates those guys, not an objective basketball aficionado.

Love Davis. Ambivalent about Rose. Unlike yourself, I can see that they are not very good anymore. They don't deserve the time.

oh wait, i forgot you were smarter than larry brown. my bad.

I am someone who can form his own opinion. You just go ahead and quote Larry Brown, since you cannot form an opinon for yourself.

yes. just barely, though. and we're seeing changes. hmm....

And the change is....The young guys are playing, the vets are sitting, and the team is pushing the ball. Just like I was saying we should do since last weekend.

This probably angers you since you want Rose and AD out there playing slowdown and losing 9 games in a row.

we've also played some pretty defensively deficient teams the last two games.

That's fine, I never even said the knicks are good. Just that they will be better playing the youth and pushing the ball when possible.

in any case, i remember early on LB saying he didn't want to run with this team until they were playing defense and playing under control. as in, play my way and then run. which is maybe what he did?

Wrong. They started pushing the tempo and playing the youngsters, the defense came at the same time. The Knicks previously lost 10 of 11. Or haven't you been watching? I guess you were just decorating your LB shrine for 2 months.

my main point is this- i think you were expecting too much of larry to convert a crop of rookies and something of a misfit cast so quickly.

You don't have to interpret what I am saying, I am quite specific. Every time you have, you have changed my words to some grandiose type statemnts and I don't make statements like that often. In other words, you are misinterpreting.

He hasn't converted sh!t. He has simply started playing the youth and a faster style. That's it. Unless you can point out what he has converted.

say what you want about his rep for not playing youngsters, but we have a bunch playing key roles now and from the beginning of the season. some of his moves confuse me, but i'm willing to trust in his reputation. he knows more about basketball than i do and is in a much better position to judge how each player is performing than me.

I guess if LB told them to play with their shorts around their ankles you would consider it brilliance. Seriously, you think there is anyone who is unquestionable? I feel bad for you then.

i've said my bit. feel free to respond but i'm not going to argue, not going to convince you and don't feel the need to defend every sentence i write one at a time.

Good idea. Honestly, you haven't defended a word, let alone a sentence.

my last word-

Changed your mind eh?

frye 26.6 minutes, 28 games

Frye should be averaging 35+ and should not have any DNP's. Also his average went up about 3 minutes the past two games.

robinson 19.2 minutes, 27 games

Robinson has been playing--a style that doesn't suit him, but playing nonetheless. Notice how much more dynamic he is when the play uptempo? How come Lee sits while NR plays? It makes no sense.

ariza 20.6 minutes, 27 games

I never even mentioned Ariza. Ariza has made a case for less time.

lee 14.6 minutes, 18 games

Lee has raised his PT average around 5 minutes the past 2 games and he has not played in nearly half of the games before that. In addition, up to that point most of his minutes have been accrued on the wrong end of meaningless blowout fourth quarters. He should have been played more.

Do you even watch the games?

Next.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 01-07-2006 12:10 AM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
SlimPack
Posts: 23588
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/14/2005
Member: #1009
USA
1/7/2006  1:16 AM
Posted by oohah:

Okay, now tell me what franchises LB has turned around. Name one

what do you mean by turning around?
oohah
Posts: 26600
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/7/2005
Member: #887
1/7/2006  1:33 AM
what do you mean by turning around?

I never made the statement that LB turned around any franchise, fishmike did, so I won't define it.

But if you like, tell me what franchise he ever turned around.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
SlimPack
Posts: 23588
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/14/2005
Member: #1009
USA
1/7/2006  1:58 AM
Posted by oohah:
what do you mean by turning around?

I never made the statement that LB turned around any franchise, fishmike did, so I won't define it.

But if you like, tell me what franchise he ever turned around.

oohah

I know you didnt say it, I was going to give you an example but it depends on what you mean by turning around. cuase brown has made a ton of teams better, but if by turn around you mean he made them a lasting success than I guess he hasnt turned any team around since LB has always left at some point at which point the team became worse again.

[Edited by - slimpack on 01-07-2006 02:04 AM]
oohah
Posts: 26600
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/7/2005
Member: #887
1/7/2006  2:04 AM
I know you didnt say it, I was going to give you an example but it depends on what you mean by turning around. cuase brown has made a ton of teams better, but if by turn around you mean he made them a lasting success than I guess he hasnt turned any team around.

He is like any coach: He needs talent to succeed. He can't make silk purse out of sow's ear. Historically he has done a good job of maximizing talent. Not true thus far with the Knicks.

Never in history has he taken a team with no talent and made them some kind of amazing team. The Knicks have decent talent, let's see if he catches on for good now. Maybe you can teach an old dog new tricks.

oohah




[Edited by - oohah on 01-07-2006 02:05 AM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Masterplan
Posts: 21571
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 12/9/2002
Member: #362
1/7/2006  3:38 AM
said i was done, but i only expected a rebuttal, not a litany of insults and cheap shots. whatever. i'm trying to be diplomatic, but here goes...
Exaggerating my statements again in order to bolster your baseless argument?

you can't cry foul when someone puts a little spin on your words, a little harmless exaggeration or sarcasm, when you do crap like this:

Yes, I am sure he [Lee] has looked good in games and awful in practice. I am sure Rose is tearing him up.

You just go ahead and quote Larry Brown, since you cannot form an opinon for yourself.

This probably angers you since you want Rose and AD out there playing slowdown and losing 9 games in a row.

I guess if LB told them to play with their shorts around their ankles you would consider it brilliance. Seriously, you think there is anyone who is unquestionable? I feel bad for you then.

let the record show i never, ever mentioned my medical inability to form an opinion, my low IQ that can't handle watching a fast paced game, or my secret desire to see the nba game played with no shorts.


oohah, you complain that people misrepresent what you say. what do you expect when you set that kind of tone? and when you spend more time criticizing every sentence in someone's reply, whether it disagrees with you or not, than you do making your own point?

for instance:

quote: my main point is this- i think you were expecting too much of larry to convert a crop of rookies and something of a misfit cast so quickly.

You don't have to interpret what I am saying, I am quite specific. Every time you have, you have changed my words to some grandiose type statemnts and I don't make statements like that often. In other words, you are misinterpreting.

He hasn't converted sh!t. He has simply started playing the youth and a faster style. That's it. Unless you can point out what he has converted.

i tried to say clearly where i think the difference in opinion between us is, not meaning to misrepresent, just to try to understand. you get all in a huff and accuse me of whatever, and challenge me to defend a word that i probably took less than a second to choose. your point is that "he hasn't converted sh!t"? forgive me if i embellish a little bit.

i made an effort to have some overarching point to what i'm saying. i ended my post with:
my main point is this-
and a short paragraph.

you ended yours with:
Do you even watch the games?

Next.



MY point, free of any reference to oohah whatsoever:

i'm being patient with LB. i didn't like seeing AD and malik on court over the young guys, but i'm content because frye, nate, ariza, and now lee have all gotten minutes and shown enough to become some of my favorite players. i'm not going to quibble over 15 versus 20 versus 25 mpg as long as they're playing. they have long careers and plenty of minutes to play ahead of them.

i'd like to think the winning starts now, after a few months of ruthlessly drilling defense, rebounding, ball movement, whatever. i don't know what happens at practice, but i'm going to agree with guys like chauncey billups, AI, hubie brown, who've made comments like, the knicks should listen to larry, it'll be tough but pay off. i'll be there when it does.

oohah, you are entitled to your opinion, and i apologize for saying you shouldn't judge what you want. i am also entitled to mine and see no reason i should be insulted for trying to put my 2 cents into an argument.
oohah
Posts: 26600
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/7/2005
Member: #887
1/7/2006  8:32 AM
Masterplan,

You started it. I only defended my opinion until you made it personal:

nitpicking. nice job.

you sound like someone who just hates those guys, not an objective basketball aficionado.

oh wait, i forgot you were smarter than larry brown. my bad.

you are no one to judge whether those guys should get 15 mpg or 20 or 25.

Apparently, you think you can take shots at me, but I can't at you.

Apparently you think you get to set the bar as to how far things can go.

Don't start no static, won't be no static. Notice How I never "went there" with fishmike?

you can't cry foul when someone puts a little spin on your words, a little harmless exaggeration or sarcasm, when you do crap like this:

Check the above quotes. Everything I wrote was in response to that. In other words, you started it. But your jabs are "harmless". I guess all jabs are harmless until they are aimed at you, huh?

let the record show i never, ever mentioned my medical inability to form an opinion, my low IQ that can't handle watching a fast paced game, or my secret desire to see the nba game played with no shorts.

Let the record show you questioned my intelligence, knowledge, and integrity before I ever wrote a word about you. But I guess when "it" comes back to you multiplied by 2, it's not as much fun, is it? At least my jabs were funny.

I simply pointed out to suggest anyone is unquestionable is ridiculous. So I assessed that inability to form an opinion myself.

The shorts bit was simply to illustrate out how silly that statement was. The desire thing you just added...

I don't know where you got the "fast-paced game" stuff from. There you go putting words in my mouth again. I find it astounding how people do that on a text-based forum where the statements are there for everybody to see permanently. Stop making stuff up about my statements, would you?

oohah, you complain that people misrepresent what you say. what do you expect when you set that kind of tone? and when you spend more time criticizing every sentence in someone's reply, whether it disagrees with you or not, than you do making your own point?

I did not complain. I pointed it out. There is a difference.

What tone did I set? As I have proven, and it can be seen by anyone who cares to read the posts above, you came at me personally first. Before that I was entirely civil to you.

It just irked you that I had an answer that made sense contradicting your 'points' so you had to escalate.

If you don't like having your argument examined closely, you are arguing with the wrong poster. By the way, I don't criticize every sentence, or criticize anything in fact. What I do is address each point I disagree with factually, not with generalisms.

Some people don't like that because it forces them to think about what they write, and it really peeves people who contradict themselves. Too bad.

And please point out where I criticize a sentence or point I agree with. You can't.

i tried to say clearly where i think the difference in opinion between us is, not meaning to misrepresent, just to try to understand. you get all in a huff and accuse me of whatever, and challenge me to defend a word that i probably took less than a second to choose. your point is that "he hasn't converted sh!t"? forgive me if i embellish a little bit.

You entered this thread misrepresenting what I was saying. Then you get smart-ass and still misrepresent. Now you want to act hurt. So you are not forgiven.

'Convert' means a lot, it is a strong word. You should probably choose your words better, at least when dealing with me.

i made an effort to have some overarching point to what i'm saying. i ended my post with:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my main point is this-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


and a short paragraph.
you ended yours with:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you even watch the games?
Next.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


MY point, free of any reference to oohah whatsoever:

i'm being patient with LB. i didn't like seeing AD and malik

So after you get done insulting me, you close out with a paragraph that doesn't. So what?

When you start something with me, then you don't get decide what I can or cannot say back. Example: If you walk up to somebody and slap them, can you say: "You're only allowed to slap me back one time, and only with equal to or less force than I did you!"? No, you cannot!

I was actually pretty nice to you considering your smug, smarmy attitude.

i'm being patient with LB. i didn't like seeing AD and malik on court over the young guys, but i'm content because frye, nate, ariza, and now lee have all gotten minutes and shown enough to become some of my favorite players. i'm not going to quibble over 15 versus 20 versus 25 mpg as long as they're playing. they have long careers and plenty of minutes to play ahead of them.

i'd like to think the winning starts now, after a few months of ruthlessly drilling defense, rebounding, ball movement, whatever. i don't know what happens at practice, but i'm going to agree with guys like chauncey billups, AI, hubie brown, who've made comments like, the knicks should listen to larry, it'll be tough but pay off. i'll be there when it does.

Whatever. I couldn't care less what you have to say at this point.

oohah, you are entitled to your opinion, and i apologize for saying you shouldn't judge what you want. i am also entitled to mine and see no reason i should be insulted for trying to put my 2 cents into an argument.

If you had not insulted me first you would not have been insulted. At no point before that did I insult you. Do not strike and you shall not be struck.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 01-07-2006 08:43 AM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
jaydh
Posts: 23150
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/16/2001
Member: #96
1/7/2006  10:28 AM
Posted by oohah:

Masterplan,

You started it.


elementary school all over again
oohah
Posts: 26600
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/7/2005
Member: #887
1/7/2006  11:05 AM
elementary school all over again

Jaydh,

Why do you feel the need to comment on this when it is between Masterplan and myself?

oohah



Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
jaydh
Posts: 23150
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/16/2001
Member: #96
1/7/2006  11:40 AM
didnt realize this was an oohah&masterplan only thread. my bad, i was going to analyze every single word in your post(ala oohah), but i gave up after this one.
fishmike
Posts: 53902
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
1/7/2006  11:43 AM
maybe oohah should coach the Knicks... we would have been winning all along
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
oohah
Posts: 26600
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/7/2005
Member: #887
1/7/2006  11:45 AM
didnt realize this was an oohah&masterplan only thread. my bad, i was going to analyze every single word in your post(ala oohah), but i gave up after this one.

So you had no reason then. And yet your comment was "elementary school"? How very childish and immature.

oohah
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
jaydh
Posts: 23150
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/16/2001
Member: #96
1/7/2006  11:47 AM
oohah
Posts: 26600
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/7/2005
Member: #887
1/7/2006  11:55 AM
maybe oohah should coach the Knicks... we would have been winning all along

What's your problem fishmike? Just come out with it.

You've never questioned a coach before?

I am begining to wonder about a few guys around here with the LB hero worship. What is this with Larry Brown being beyond examination?

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
djsunyc
Posts: 44929
Alba Posts: 42
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #536
1/7/2006  12:00 PM
Posted by oohah:
maybe oohah should coach the Knicks... we would have been winning all along

What's your problem fishmike? Just come out with it.

You've never questioned a coach before?

I am begining to wonder about a few guys around here with the LB hero worship. What is this with Larry Brown being beyond examination?

oohah

i am an lb supporter. i do not worship him like a hero. everyone is entitled to their opinions but when it comes to lb, i can not sit here and be upset with him or question his moves over a 30 game sample when given a SUCCESSFUL 30 year body of work to take from. same goes with steph. it would be like forgetting his 10 year history in the league as a player with issues just b/c of the last 3 games.
oohah
Posts: 26600
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/7/2005
Member: #887
1/7/2006  12:22 PM
i am an lb supporter. i do not worship him like a hero. everyone is entitled to their opinions but when it comes to lb, i can not sit here and be upset with him or question his moves over a 30 game sample when given a SUCCESSFUL 30 year body of work to take from. same goes with steph. it would be like forgetting his 10 year history in the league as a player with issues just b/c of the last 3 games.

Okay Dj, but as I am sure you know, LB hasn't been successful everywhere. He has had his ups and downs as a coach.

I have to wonder why Lenny Wilkens did not get this same pass from everyone. Doesn't anyone realize that Wilkens had a better resume until LB got handed a championship in Detroit? That's right, 0 NBA titles for LB in 30 years until he walked onto a ready-made team.

Nearly half a season is not that small of a sample. How long does everyone think he will really stick around for? It seems like many don't really know his history, and are repeating what they read in Marc Berman articles.

I wish somebody would tell me when it will be okay to comment on LB. Please, so I can mark it down on my calendar.

In any case, I don't know why everybody can't see that LB has dramatically changed his approach in the last 2 games and the team has looked much better.

I don't think the Steph/LB comparison is apt. No coach is beyond question ever. I think too many are buying into the LB "brand". Any other coach would have been run out of town, and all this preperation "behind the scenes" talk would be ridiculed.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Masterplan
Posts: 21571
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 12/9/2002
Member: #362
1/7/2006  1:07 PM
Posted by Masterplan:

oohah,

you're looking at this team and thinking, we should be winning a lot more games.

LB looks at this team and sees guys who are inexperienced (frye, lee- see their defensive lapses; nate- his TOs), missing fundamentals (ariza, curry), or who have neglected aspects of the game (marbury- D, ball movement; crawford- D and shot selection; taylor- D and rebounding). trying to squeeze wins out now means those habits get set. instead, cutting frye's minutes for having slow feet on D, or benching ariza for his offensive woes, means they'll get angry, sure, but also get the message.

as for malik and AD, they are clearly not the long term solution, but when LB puts them in the game, he knows they'll show good defensive fundamentals and make the right play on offense (whether or not that open J goes in). they're not here for good.

as fans we all want to see more wins. but learning the whole game means short term setbacks. like it or not, we're still in the first phase of the season, the learning and adjusting stage. i'm going to trust (a) that larry knows what he's doing and we'll soon see improvement this season, and (b) that he will be around long enough for that to matter, i.e. 2 seasons minimum, i think that's reasonable.

[Edited by - Masterplan on 01-06-2006 9:46 PM]


oohah, my first post on this thread. except for my egregious misrepresentation of your thoughts in the first sentence (remember, "a few" versus "a lot," really an honest miscommunication). i'm really actually surprised how polite i was getting into this thing i figured would jsut spiral downward.

my next post was much longer and responded to the know-it-all, condescending tone with which you responded to me here. [EDIT: looking back over it, it wasn't even that bad, next to what you pulled out. take it easy, man] i was even the first one to try to get diplomatic again. i gave you the opportunity to go back to talking bball:

quote: i'm being patient with LB. i didn't like seeing AD and malik on court over the young guys, but i'm content because frye, nate, ariza, and now lee have all gotten minutes and shown enough to become some of my favorite players. i'm not going to quibble over 15 versus 20 versus 25 mpg as long as they're playing. they have long careers and plenty of minutes to play ahead of them.

i'd like to think the winning starts now, after a few months of ruthlessly drilling defense, rebounding, ball movement, whatever. i don't know what happens at practice, but i'm going to agree with guys like chauncey billups, AI, hubie brown, who've made comments like, the knicks should listen to larry, it'll be tough but pay off. i'll be there when it does.

Whatever. I couldn't care less what you have to say at this point.

peace.

[Edited by - Masterplan on 01-07-2006 1:09 PM]
oohah
Posts: 26600
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/7/2005
Member: #887
1/7/2006  1:18 PM
oohah, my first post on this thread. except for my egregious misrepresentation of your thoughts in the first sentence (remember, "a few" versus "a lot," really an honest miscommunication). i'm really actually surprised how polite i was getting into this thing i figured would jsut spiral downward.

my next post was much longer and responded to the know-it-all, condescending tone with which you responded to me here. [EDIT: looking back over it, it wasn't even that bad, next to what you pulled out. take it easy, man] i was even the first one to try to get diplomatic again. i gave you the opportunity to go back to talking bball:

The condescending tone was all in your head. Nothing would have spiraled anywhere had you not taken it there. I NEVER pull out the first insult. Never.

peace.

And to you as well.

oohah



Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Page 4 of 5 « First‹ Previous 2  3  4  5 Next ›
« Reply To Topic
growing pains for ariza + james (article)
Forum Index  ›  NY Knicks Forum

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy