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realgm inside info: Team Turmoil
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SlimPack
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12/23/2005  10:15 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by SlimPack:

you know Im pretty sure the info about nate was wrong, king said that nate WAS sick, and trust king more than I do the other guy

Heehee... I trust the other guy better than King.

BTW, Who's king?

Seems a little coincidental Nate gets sick just as a locker room fight is reported.

But hey, who knows...

he'a a guy on this board that posts info that hasnt been released yet occasionally, he hasnt been wrong so far

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=13335
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BlueSeats
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12/23/2005  10:25 PM
So what other kinds of things has he been right about?

On the other board there is one other guy with occassional inside info. The mods actually checked him out and verified him. I think he was a legit insider, but some of his stuff was still wrong from time to time, while some was right. That's natural cause not everything management considers comes to fruition. Wasn't info you could bank on, but it was as good or better than you'd get from other 'sources' like Chad or Vescey. But the thing is, he was very pro administration, and was very careful to give you the party line. He seemed to only let out what was okay to let out, kinda skipped over tough questions. However, he did back up this guys pree press info that Kurt and Marbs were fighting. So one source backed up another.

Anyway, there are these different sources and they get different info thru different means. Sometimes they will conflict, sometimes agree. I don't bank on any of them.
Pete99
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12/23/2005  10:57 PM
King is from St. Louis, MO? He could be emailing the Garden public relations person like any of us could do to get his info before it's in the papers and why it would be so different from an actual Garden employee who doesn't need to spin anything. Nothing against king because it is not his fault he was told that.
martin
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12/23/2005  11:02 PM
Posted by Pete99:

King is from St. Louis, MO? He could be emailing the Garden public relations person like any of us could do to get his info before it's in the papers and why it would be so different from an actual Garden employee who doesn't need to spin anything. Nothing against king because it is not his fault he was told that.

Read our forums more Pete, because it seems as if you have not read as much as you have claimed.
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jaydh
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12/23/2005  11:05 PM
Posted by Pete99:

King is from St. Louis, MO? He could be emailing the Garden public relations person like any of us could do to get his info before it's in the papers and why it would be so different from an actual Garden employee who doesn't need to spin anything. Nothing against king because it is not his fault he was told that.

i dont really get the point of this post(part about needing to spin anything; who did that?), but just because they are a garden employee doesnt mean they have the inside info either. its not like isiah is discussing everything with every employee at the garden.
Pete99
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12/23/2005  11:10 PM
Posted by jaydh:

i dont really get the point of this post(part about needing to spin anything; who did that?), but just because they are a garden employee doesnt mean they have the inside info either. its not like isiah is discussing everything with every employee at the garden.
[/quote]

Referring to the public relations people who spun the story of Nate being sick.

Martin, I didn't catch if King worked at the Garden or not as well.
BlueSeats
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12/23/2005  11:38 PM
I'm not so sure blackbishop works at the garden, I think he knows someone who does. I seem to remember him referring to his source as someone not in high office. don't think he claimed to be said person. I take his source to be something like a security guy, or locker room attendant, cause most of his stuff seems to come from the locker room and is past oriented, like "so and so said such and such to so and so." And his stuff was usually dirt the organization wouldn't want out.

The other source was said to have front office connections. As such his info was more future looking, like "knicks are pursuing so and so and should have him by when and when." But his stuff did have more of a PR spin to it. However he corroborated the dirt between Kurt and Steph and was the one who told me that last years vets (KT, AH, JYD) were also against Steph.

But the point of it is you can have two or more sources who are legit but who's info will be different. I wouldn't expect blackbishop to know who the Knicks are pursuing, just as I wouldn't expect the other guy to offer me dirt from the locker room.

So King may also be legit, but his info might have it's own flavor.

And Pete99, I think you overstate the case for realgm a bit. Most boards have a guy or two with a connection, and realgm is no exception. Their rumors are also fed by their wiretap feature, and people do come to use the trade checker, but most pro organizations have a superior fee based version. But in my nearly two years that thread which was purported to be by Jamal was the only one I'd ever seen by anyone claiming to be a player, and I'm far from convinced that thread was legit.

There are some very good posters there, but really just a handful or two. Then there are tons and tons of kids calling each other "idiots" and trying to "own" each other, or threatening to leave the computer "settle things" in face. High level conversations are not uncommon there, but things can and do spiral downward very quickly.

And one or two of the moderators could take a good lesson from these guys over here.
martin
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12/23/2005  11:56 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

And one or two of the moderators could take a good lesson from these guys over here.

it's also (partially) a numbers thing. RealGM WANTS the hitcount, so they take a hit on substance in their forums.
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crzymdups
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12/24/2005  12:15 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=452612

Knicks are in turmoil.

1) Nate Rob wasnt sick, he was sent home cause of an argument with larry brown.

2) Ariza had to be restrained by davis and rose cause he was taken out the game and is finger pointing.

3) Crawford has asked to be traded.

4) Qrich has also asked to be traded.


Team is in disaaray at this point.

by the way, nate rob didnt get into a fight with rose over a bet, he attacked rose in the shower naked cause rose criticized the way he played defense and how he didnt get up in the man.

-------

With Coach Idiot in command, none of this surprises me at all. Can we fire this idiot? Sure, he's a good coach when he gets his type of player, but he can't adjust and you would have to turn over the entire roster to get his type of team. Fire the coach. There are 20 other coaches who could win with talent and help them get along. Larry Brown is all ego. I love how people point to his success in Detroit and Indiana without mentioning that those teams also forced him out the door ASAP. He's a jerk. Get rid of him. He won't ever win with this team and he'll destroy what talent Isiah has assembled. Let Herb coach, get a defensive assistant to help him out on D. This team needs to lose Herr Brown.
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BlueSeats
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12/24/2005  12:30 AM
Posted by crzymdups:

With Coach Idiot in command, none of this surprises me at all. Can we fire this idiot? Sure, he's a good coach when he gets his type of player, but he can't adjust and you would have to turn over the entire roster to get his type of team. Fire the coach. There are 20 other coaches who could win with talent and help them get along. Larry Brown is all ego. I love how people point to his success in Detroit and Indiana without mentioning that those teams also forced him out the door ASAP. He's a jerk. Get rid of him. He won't ever win with this team and he'll destroy what talent Isiah has assembled. Let Herb coach, get a defensive assistant to help him out on D. This team needs to lose Herr Brown.

Can you find evidence of this elsewhere in his career? Aside from some typical rough starts I'm of the impression he's made all his teams better. Why would this one be an exception?

crzymdups
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12/24/2005  12:37 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by crzymdups:

With Coach Idiot in command, none of this surprises me at all. Can we fire this idiot? Sure, he's a good coach when he gets his type of player, but he can't adjust and you would have to turn over the entire roster to get his type of team. Fire the coach. There are 20 other coaches who could win with talent and help them get along. Larry Brown is all ego. I love how people point to his success in Detroit and Indiana without mentioning that those teams also forced him out the door ASAP. He's a jerk. Get rid of him. He won't ever win with this team and he'll destroy what talent Isiah has assembled. Let Herb coach, get a defensive assistant to help him out on D. This team needs to lose Herr Brown.

Can you find evidence of this elsewhere in his career? Aside from some typical rough starts I'm of the impression he's made all his teams better. Why would this one be an exception?

Every situation is different. He's also tried to force trades everywhere he's gone by putting weird lineups on the floor. He had Iverson traded if it wasn't for MAtt Geiger. I think he wants complete roster control here. I don't think he deserves it. He basically had it in Philly and built one of the most flawed teams to ever make the Finals.
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BlueSeats
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12/24/2005  12:47 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Every situation is different. He's also tried to force trades everywhere he's gone by putting weird lineups on the floor. He had Iverson traded if it wasn't for MAtt Geiger. I think he wants complete roster control here. I don't think he deserves it. He basically had it in Philly and built one of the most flawed teams to ever make the Finals.

When he took over they were a 22-60 team and he brought that "flawed roster" to the finals.

We have a flawed roster, I'm game for what can he do for us.

All I can say is there's no one on our flawed roster I have more faith in than LB, so I'm not quite sure what we've got to lose.
crzymdups
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12/24/2005  1:09 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by crzymdups:
Every situation is different. He's also tried to force trades everywhere he's gone by putting weird lineups on the floor. He had Iverson traded if it wasn't for MAtt Geiger. I think he wants complete roster control here. I don't think he deserves it. He basically had it in Philly and built one of the most flawed teams to ever make the Finals.

When he took over they were a 22-60 team and he brought that "flawed roster" to the finals.

We have a flawed roster, I'm game for what can he do for us.

All I can say is there's no one on our flawed roster I have more faith in than LB, so I'm not quite sure what we've got to lose.

He took over after Iverson's rookie season. Who can say how many Finals Iverson would have made with a different coach.

I don't think our roster is that flawed. I think a coach who could adapt to his talent would be quite happy with about 8 of our guys. Maybe he would even make an 8 or 9 man rotation!!!

What we have to lose is every young talented player on this roster. I'm tired of starting over. This Brown thing is going to end ugly and we're going to be at square one with a bunch of old untalented players who try hard every night.
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BigC
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12/24/2005  1:15 AM
I don't understand why people are so quick to discredit BlackBishop's info. He is a legit poster. Not only does he not have a history of making things up, but he does not have anything to gain with this rumor nor does he claim to be Mr. Info.

I feel BB normally gets attacked by fans for his info because He normally says things they do like to hear. Example Marbury and Kurt fighting in the lockerroom.



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crzymdups
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12/24/2005  1:20 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by crzymdups:
Every situation is different. He's also tried to force trades everywhere he's gone by putting weird lineups on the floor. He had Iverson traded if it wasn't for MAtt Geiger. I think he wants complete roster control here. I don't think he deserves it. He basically had it in Philly and built one of the most flawed teams to ever make the Finals.

When he took over they were a 22-60 team and he brought that "flawed roster" to the finals.

We have a flawed roster, I'm game for what can he do for us.

All I can say is there's no one on our flawed roster I have more faith in than LB, so I'm not quite sure what we've got to lose.

Also, wad the Olympic roster flawed? Can I please be paid $10 million to coach a roster with Duncan, Wade, Lebron, Amare, Iverson, Odom, Marbury, Jefferson and Marion and somehow blame the players for being selfish?

What possible version of the game of basketball could force someone to bench Amare Stoudamire? On what basketball right way playing planet do Wade and Lebron not get significant minutes?

Larry Brown loves to blame his players. Weird that he couldn't figure out how to use three of the best players in the entire world during the Olympics. I guess it was their fault.
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BlueSeats
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12/24/2005  1:26 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by crzymdups:
Every situation is different. He's also tried to force trades everywhere he's gone by putting weird lineups on the floor. He had Iverson traded if it wasn't for MAtt Geiger. I think he wants complete roster control here. I don't think he deserves it. He basically had it in Philly and built one of the most flawed teams to ever make the Finals.

When he took over they were a 22-60 team and he brought that "flawed roster" to the finals.

We have a flawed roster, I'm game for what can he do for us.

All I can say is there's no one on our flawed roster I have more faith in than LB, so I'm not quite sure what we've got to lose.

He took over after Iverson's rookie season. Who can say how many Finals Iverson would have made with a different coach.

Well most indications from before Brown and after lead one to suspect not many.
I don't think our roster is that flawed. I think a coach who could adapt to his talent would be quite happy with about 8 of our guys. Maybe he would even make an 8 or 9 man rotation!!!

It's funny to see people go on and on about how deep the rotation is. First off, if he had settled on a rotation and we had this record people would just be blaming his chosen rotation rather than his lack of rotation. Second, before the season began many people thought we were a deep team and WANTED to see a deep rotation, like Hubie did in Memphis. Third, we have almost no 2-way players. We don't have many guys he can just leave out there and feel covered on both ends of the court. Fourth, he has to try to crack the code as to why we have certain dropoffs in energy and production, like 3rd quarters.

Think he'd be screwing around so much if there was a magic rotation that was working? Some assume we suck because he's screwing around, others think he's screwing around cause we suck.
What we have to lose is every young talented player on this roster. I'm tired of starting over. This Brown thing is going to end ugly and we're going to be at square one with a bunch of old untalented players who try hard every night.

We fired Layden. I don't think anyone in the organization is looking to go down that path again. Larry just wants some smart players who can defend. If you think none of our guys fit that bill then again I wonder, what have we got to lose.
jaydh
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12/24/2005  1:31 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by crzymdups:
Every situation is different. He's also tried to force trades everywhere he's gone by putting weird lineups on the floor. He had Iverson traded if it wasn't for MAtt Geiger. I think he wants complete roster control here. I don't think he deserves it. He basically had it in Philly and built one of the most flawed teams to ever make the Finals.

When he took over they were a 22-60 team and he brought that "flawed roster" to the finals.

We have a flawed roster, I'm game for what can he do for us.

All I can say is there's no one on our flawed roster I have more faith in than LB, so I'm not quite sure what we've got to lose.

He took over after Iverson's rookie season. Who can say how many Finals Iverson would have made with a different coach.

probably none. it doesnt look like they are going back anytime soon.
BlueSeats
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12/24/2005  1:47 AM
Posted by crzymdups:

Also, wad the Olympic roster flawed? Can I please be paid $10 million to coach a roster with Duncan, Wade, Lebron, Amare, Iverson, Odom, Marbury, Jefferson and Marion and somehow blame the players for being selfish?

What possible version of the game of basketball could force someone to bench Amare Stoudamire? On what basketball right way playing planet do Wade and Lebron not get significant minutes?

Larry Brown loves to blame his players. Weird that he couldn't figure out how to use three of the best players in the entire world during the Olympics. I guess it was their fault.

Each of those guys was a rookie and I remember Wade and Lebron getting significant PT. How many Olympic teams FEATURED rookies? Plus, wade was behind Marbury, who I bet you think played splendid. Lebron played behind, Iverson, Marion and Jefferson, who aren't chopped liver.

I'd say there were several reasons to the teams failure. In no particular order:

Duncan's foul troubles
No backup for Duncan
No true shooters
No true PGs
Our primary PG (Steph) is one of the worst at feeding athletic players who don't shoot well
Our primary PG (Steph) is one of the worst at forming chemistry quickly. In fact I didn't even see chemistry between him and Marion and Amare, who he played two years with.
Not enough time to teach a flawed squad how to play "the right way".


Take the rookies off that team and who do you have? Duncan, Odom, Iverson, Marbury, Jefferson, Marion. (Who am i forgetting?) Aside from Duncan and Marion, which of them has established themselves as an easy fit in a team game? Marbury, Iverson, Jefferson (very dependent on Kidd or being the primary option), Odom? No, all mercurial tweener types possessed of great one-on-one skills but not easy to fit players.

But somehow you think with that flawed roster of rookies and difficult to fit players Brown should have gotten it all worked out really quickly.

Just like here...
crzymdups
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12/24/2005  2:02 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by crzymdups:

Also, wad the Olympic roster flawed? Can I please be paid $10 million to coach a roster with Duncan, Wade, Lebron, Amare, Iverson, Odom, Marbury, Jefferson and Marion and somehow blame the players for being selfish?

What possible version of the game of basketball could force someone to bench Amare Stoudamire? On what basketball right way playing planet do Wade and Lebron not get significant minutes?

Larry Brown loves to blame his players. Weird that he couldn't figure out how to use three of the best players in the entire world during the Olympics. I guess it was their fault.

Each of those guys was a rookie and I remember Wade and Lebron getting significant PT. How many Olympic teams FEATURED rookies? Plus, wade was behind Marbury, who I bet you think played splendid. Lebron played behind, Iverson, Marion and Jefferson, who aren't chopped liver.

I'd say there were several reasons to the teams failure. In no particular order:

Duncan's foul troubles
No backup for Duncan
No true shooters
No true PGs
Our primary PG (Steph) is one of the worst at feeding athletic players who don't shoot well
Our primary PG (Steph) is one of the worst at forming chemistry quickly. In fact I didn't even see chemistry between him and Marion and Amare, who he played two years with.
Not enough time to teach a flawed squad how to play "the right way".


Take the rookies off that team and who do you have? Duncan, Odom, Iverson, Marbury, Jefferson, Marion. (Who am i forgetting?) Aside from Duncan and Marion, which of them has established themselves as an easy fit in a team game? Marbury, Iverson, Jefferson (very dependent on Kidd or being the primary option), Odom? No, all mercurial tweener types possessed of great one-on-one skills but not easy to fit players.

But somehow you think with that flawed roster of rookies and difficult to fit players Brown should have gotten it all worked out really quickly.

Just like here...

Wade was the third guard, but Marbury and Iverson played the majority of the minutes. Lebron was very effective, but was third in line behind RJ and Marion in the rotation.

He played Boozer over Amare and Okafor, despite Duncan's foul troubles.

Sure, the roster was flawed, but never once did Brown put a lineup on the floor that took advantage of what he did have. And you can't tell me he didn't have a lot. Amare was a second year player, Bron and Wade were rookies, but you can't tell me they didn't prove themselves. Wade made the second round. Lebron was ROY. Amare was ROY and led the league in dunks his second year despite missing 40 games. And let's not forget there was an exhibition schedule before the games started counting for the Olympics. Why not experiment with a lineup of Marion at PF? Were there really any international PFs who he couldn't have guarded?

I concede that Duncan's foul trouble was primarily to blame in sinking that team, but Brown acted like he had nothing, and three of the players he had coming off the bench were the best three players in the NBA the next season (Amare, Lebron, Wade).

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BlueSeats
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12/24/2005  2:45 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by crzymdups:

Also, wad the Olympic roster flawed? Can I please be paid $10 million to coach a roster with Duncan, Wade, Lebron, Amare, Iverson, Odom, Marbury, Jefferson and Marion and somehow blame the players for being selfish?

What possible version of the game of basketball could force someone to bench Amare Stoudamire? On what basketball right way playing planet do Wade and Lebron not get significant minutes?

Larry Brown loves to blame his players. Weird that he couldn't figure out how to use three of the best players in the entire world during the Olympics. I guess it was their fault.

Each of those guys was a rookie and I remember Wade and Lebron getting significant PT. How many Olympic teams FEATURED rookies? Plus, wade was behind Marbury, who I bet you think played splendid. Lebron played behind, Iverson, Marion and Jefferson, who aren't chopped liver.

I'd say there were several reasons to the teams failure. In no particular order:

Duncan's foul troubles
No backup for Duncan
No true shooters
No true PGs
Our primary PG (Steph) is one of the worst at feeding athletic players who don't shoot well
Our primary PG (Steph) is one of the worst at forming chemistry quickly. In fact I didn't even see chemistry between him and Marion and Amare, who he played two years with.
Not enough time to teach a flawed squad how to play "the right way".


Take the rookies off that team and who do you have? Duncan, Odom, Iverson, Marbury, Jefferson, Marion. (Who am i forgetting?) Aside from Duncan and Marion, which of them has established themselves as an easy fit in a team game? Marbury, Iverson, Jefferson (very dependent on Kidd or being the primary option), Odom? No, all mercurial tweener types possessed of great one-on-one skills but not easy to fit players.

But somehow you think with that flawed roster of rookies and difficult to fit players Brown should have gotten it all worked out really quickly.

Just like here...

Wade was the third guard, but Marbury and Iverson played the majority of the minutes. Lebron was very effective, but was third in line behind RJ and Marion in the rotation.

He played Boozer over Amare and Okafor, despite Duncan's foul troubles.

Sure, the roster was flawed, but never once did Brown put a lineup on the floor that took advantage of what he did have. And you can't tell me he didn't have a lot. Amare was a second year player, Bron and Wade were rookies, but you can't tell me they didn't prove themselves. Wade made the second round. Lebron was ROY. Amare was ROY and led the league in dunks his second year despite missing 40 games. And let's not forget there was an exhibition schedule before the games started counting for the Olympics. Why not experiment with a lineup of Marion at PF? Were there really any international PFs who he couldn't have guarded?

I concede that Duncan's foul trouble was primarily to blame in sinking that team, but Brown acted like he had nothing, and three of the players he had coming off the bench were the best three players in the NBA the next season (Amare, Lebron, Wade).

All I gotta say is if Nash or Kidd were running point that team could have steamrolled, even with Brown coaching. With steph running that show I don't think any coach would have won.

Somewhere between those ends are lots of intermediary possibilities, like putting Wade, Iverson or Lebron at point. But no telling how that would have worked out. Still stuck without shooters.
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