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the pulse of the board - how many people want to keep marbury?
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BlueSeats
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12/20/2005  3:21 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

But again you are confusing your opinion with LB's even though it's his offense and he has to watch these two guys run it every day in games AND IN PRACTICE. I've had guys whose teammates were ready to run them off the team. Yet the fans thought these same guys were the superstars that made everything go smoothly. Lb knows what he is doing. When Craw runs the point his way he will play, not before. Sorry. If you need evidence of this just pay attention to how his playing time at the point is slowly increasing. Why? because he is learning. But he is not ready to get 20 or 30 minutes there without turning our offense into mush.

WE all make the same mistake over and over again. We think guys develop by placing them on the court. That is not the way it works. Guys develop and THEN they get placed on the court.

Bip, your speculation on this is only as good as mine. Do you really think it's unrealistic that Larry is giving Steph every opportunity to succeed? I expect that courtesy was agreed upon before even being hired. You make it sound like Steph is running LBs offense while Jamal is not, but Steph isn't either.

My prediction before the season started was that Steph would start the season playing point and Jamal or other would end it at point, and so far I expect that to hold true. The reason being that Steph is simply not a good PG ad when made to fight for the position he can be overtaken by mediocrity or better, and this is what we are witnessing.
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Bippity10
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12/20/2005  3:40 PM
I think your prediction is the key to your bias.

But again. I don't care who is point guard. Neither does LB. But as a caoch I know he will start who he thinks is more capable. And the other guy he is going to teach until he is more capable.
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BlueSeats
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12/20/2005  3:47 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

I think your prediction is the key to your bias.

No, actually my bias was the key to my prediction.
But again. I don't care who is point guard. Neither does LB. But as a caoch I know he will start who he thinks is more capable. And the other guy he is going to teach until he is more capable.

That's fine, but in at least as much as the case of AD and Rose vs guys like Frye and Lee, we've seen LB be wrong on the matter. And if you are correct in your guess on Brown's motives (and I'm not sure you are) then I believe he will be proven wrong on the Marbury front too.
tkf
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12/20/2005  4:15 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Bippity10:

Crawford has run the offense worse than Marbs but most people don't see it.

http://www.82games.com/0506/05NYK3C.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0506/05NYK2C.HTM

We see that at PG JC has a net +4, +8 per48, and 66% win rate, and a net-48 PER of +15.3
We see that at PG SM has a net -112, -7.9 per48, and 33% win rate, and a net-48 PER of +3.0

Are you sure you see what you think you see?

I think as a courtesy to Steph and Isiah LB is bending over backwards to extend every opportunity for Steph to succeed. JC is more loosey goosey than Steph but he's had less time in the league, so he's less polished. But with that loosiness also comes more energy, more flow to the offense, better feeds to the interior, more fast breaks, easier buckets, better ball distribution and ball movement, etc, etc.

So the question becomes, since having Steph 'get it' as a PG is no easy feat and is taking a lot of time, coaching, and development, how much further along might we be if those same resources and court time were going to Jamal instead? I think considerably further along, and each day spent as a courtesy to Steph and Isiah is a setback to Jamal, chemistry and team unity.

[Edited by - BlueSeats on 12-20-2005 2:23 PM]

Blue earlier in the year I made a thread on real GM regarding both marbs and craw, I stated that IT really wanted craw at first, I remember a few years ago the knicks got torched by Jayson williams(white chocolate) and then Crawford the very next game, IT then proclaimed that we needed a point guard of those guys calibre, The bulls were not parting with craw then, the next PG that was available at a high price was marbs, but in all honesty I think IT had his mind set on craw, even said so in numerous articles how much he like this kid..

It is funny, when I suggested a trade to get crawford, people were like, and I am talking about knicks and bulls fans alike, that the bulls would not trade us a young stud PG, that we had nothing but old overpaid bums, and no way we were getting crawford..LOL. boy how a year or two changes things..LOL..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Bippity10
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12/20/2005  4:16 PM
Yet again your missing the point of developing young guys. YOung guys don't develop if you just hand them time. If you are a demanding coach some guys you make earn it. Vets get the benefit of the doubt but rookies do not. LB did exactly what i would have done. Play the vets until the rookies clearly earn it. Not just play better but dominate the vets. Winning and losing is not the issue, development is.

I've said it time and time again. I've had freshmen and sophomores that I want to start. That have the talent to start. But have not yet gained that mental edge that will help me win games when games are on the line. I know that these guys will perform there arses off and then collapse down the stretch of games when things are important. To get rid of this I push buttons to make these guys mentally tougher so that collapsing is not an option. Then when they earn the position IN MY EYES, they get all the playing time they want. It is always at that point that all the fans go "see he finally listened to us. We proved him wrong"

I guess you have to be a coach to understand this. Coaching is not about putting the right starting line-up on the floor and watching them perform. It's about motivating and teaching them so they have no option but to perform.

We will agree to disagree on this topic. But if we go by LB's career my guess is that he probably knows what he is doing, and since we are typing on this computer and not in the practice facility, we probably do not.
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BlueSeats
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12/20/2005  4:44 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Yet again your missing the point of developing young guys. YOung guys don't develop if you just hand them time. If you are a demanding coach some guys you make earn it.

Bippity, I enjoy your coaching perspect, I really do, but in all due respect I think you are making this more complicated than necessary.

You said something to the effect that all those poeple who'd prefer JC at the point aren't seeing that he's not ready. I (along with many who want Steph out of the PG spot, if not off the team) simply disagree on that count, and 82games supports our case not yours.

It's not about developing Jamal and keeping him on the bench to do so -- he's already outperforming Steph. This is about trying to develop Steph!!!

And if the best place to develop a player is from the bench... please put STEPH'S butt on the bench at your earliest convenience!

BlueSeats
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12/20/2005  4:53 PM
Posted by tkf:
Blue earlier in the year I made a thread on real GM regarding both marbs and craw, I stated that IT really wanted craw at first, I remember a few years ago the knicks got torched by Jayson williams(white chocolate) and then Crawford the very next game, IT then proclaimed that we needed a point guard of those guys calibre, The bulls were not parting with craw then, the next PG that was available at a high price was marbs, but in all honesty I think IT had his mind set on craw, even said so in numerous articles how much he like this kid..

It is funny, when I suggested a trade to get crawford, people were like, and I am talking about knicks and bulls fans alike, that the bulls would not trade us a young stud PG, that we had nothing but old overpaid bums, and no way we were getting crawford..LOL. boy how a year or two changes things..LOL..

The problem for Isiah is he loves undersized scoring PG's, especially if their from the south side of Chicago - or as close to that model as possible. IOW, he feels the specific challenges he faced growing up of being undersized and impoverished are what made his heart so big and his will so strong and his mind so keen. He keeps thinking it's a formula he can bottle and succeed with.

Unfortunately it's not so easy, I'd venture to guess that Isiah's heart, mind and will came from his genetics and his strong momma's upbringing, and he's no more likely to find that in guys of his or any other size, or from his or any other town.

He's really got to give up these formulas from his past, (like little guards and three guard alignments) and just go out and get the guys with heart, will and brains, wherever they may be found.
Bonn1997
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12/20/2005  4:55 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Bippity10:

No coach is ever going to go by 82games.com to determine his starting PG. Get out of here with that nonsense. But if you want stats I will give yo ua key one

First off that's bunk. You know very well that plenty of coaches are very interested in stats and production figures.

Second, no one said LB should rely on the figures I posted, only that the people who think JC has more potential at the position have positive production figures to back up their claims, something the Marbury supporters seem to lack.

It's only information, do what you will with it.
Marbury plays many of his minutes with the worst player statistically in the league: AD. Of course, his +/- #s are going to look bad. As soon as AD went out the starting lineup, Marbury's +/- #s began to improve.

BlueSeats
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12/20/2005  5:44 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Marbury plays many of his minutes with the worst player statistically in the league: AD. Of course, his +/- #s are going to look bad. As soon as AD went out the starting lineup, Marbury's +/- #s began to improve.

I'm not sure, have we won any games where Frye started? I'm not convinced AD is as responsible for our woes as so many. Just like ridding ourselves of Shandon Anderson, the supposed "worst player in the NBA", didn't turn the trick so many assumed it would.

It's also possible that brown felt that AD would work better with Steph due to poor perimeter D and Steph's relative weakness at feeding the post. IOW, if Steph can't get the best out of Frye at least use AD to give him some help on D.

I also think it's that Brown wanted AD to be his locker room liaison, and thus promised him a role on the team so that he wouldn't retire. That's important since Steph's locker room always seems to be tense, so it would make sense to make AD a friend of both Steph and Brown if he is to be effective in that role.

Yes, I assign a lot of negative power to Steph. I think his style on court and off is destructive to enthusiasm and team play. He gets off to quick starts before he wears out his welcome, then it's time to go. Got off to a good start here too, but by the time he declared himself 'the best' he'd worn his welcome thin. It's nearing time to go here too, unless he and LB can reinvent him pretty quick.
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12/20/2005  6:17 PM
I'm not sure, have we won any games where Frye started? I'm not convinced AD is as responsible for our woes as so many.
huh? I didn't even address the issue of whether we'd win more games. I just said Steph's +/- #s would look a lot better if such a large % of his minutes weren't with the player who has the worst +/- #s in the NBA.
BlueSeats
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12/20/2005  6:35 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
I'm not sure, have we won any games where Frye started? I'm not convinced AD is as responsible for our woes as so many.
huh? I didn't even address the issue of whether we'd win more games. I just said Steph's +/- #s would look a lot better if such a large % of his minutes weren't with the player who has the worst +/- #s in the NBA.

But in Brown's constantly shifting lineup AD is but one of 14 guys Steph shares the floor with. How much can the +/- of any one guy account for the vast difference in Steph's numbers relative to Jamal's?

We see that at PG JC has a net +4, +8 per48, and 66% win rate, and a net-48 PER of +15.3
We see that at PG SM has a net -112, -7.9 per48, and 33% win rate, and a net-48 PER of +3.0

You really think AD is responsible for all that?
nixluva
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12/20/2005  7:22 PM
Those numbers are meaningless. IF LB who sees these guys in practice, doesn't feel JC can run the team then there is a good reason for that. As much as you Steph bashers want to make it out to be his fault, there's so much more to the game than Steph's play alone. Steph isn't the reason why guys miss shots, turn the ball over, fail to rotate on D, set bad picks, etc.

Eventually this TEAM will learn to execute in all facets of the game and then Steph's contributions will be seen in a different light. The team is young and the players are new. Add to that the injuries, lack of consistency in the Starting lineup and rotation, as well as learning a new system. Its no wonder the team is having trouble playing as a unit. Its gonna take more than 20 games to get all of that right.
BlueSeats
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12/20/2005  7:34 PM
^^ no doubt, and you all make fine points.

But the team just has no mojo under steph. If they did we wouldn't see Steph sharing his time with an ADD 5'9 rookie SG, and he wouldn't be getting outplayed by Jamal.

Some of us see this, some don't. I happen to be one who thinks LB sees it too, and if Jamal isn't the one who replaces Steph then they'll bring someone else in.

As always, new teammates, injuries, and new coaches excuse Steph's teams for rarely if ever playing above the sum of their parts, but they never explain why he gets shipped out. If isiah can ever find a trade partner who will take steph some of you will still be wondering where such a move came from and how it snuck up on you out of nowhere...
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12/20/2005  7:37 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
I'm not sure, have we won any games where Frye started? I'm not convinced AD is as responsible for our woes as so many.
huh? I didn't even address the issue of whether we'd win more games. I just said Steph's +/- #s would look a lot better if such a large % of his minutes weren't with the player who has the worst +/- #s in the NBA.

well frye as you know has been starting at the pf position lately and stephs +/- numbers have actually gotten worse

on court: -5.8, off court: +.9
http://www.82games.com/0506/0506NYK.HTM

Im not sure why or what exactly it means though.



[Edited by - SlimPack on 12-20-2005 7:39 PM]
OldFan
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12/20/2005  7:39 PM
Posted by SlimPack:
Posted by firefly:

I would rather keep Steph and get our coaching staff to utilize his talents better. Noone can argue that marbury is our most talented player. But he can only thrive in a certain type of offense. The ball needs to be in his hands, but someone else has to be able to make plays so that Steph can become a PART of the offense as opposed to BEING the offense. We have a coach in LB who has the experiance and nouse to be able to do that if he wants to. Playing a higher tempo offense where whoever brings the ball up ( see Crawford, Jamal) will look for the post pass or Marbury will not take away from Larry mantra of Defense and rebounding, and it will be benificial for Stephon where he doesnt feel torn between creating and scoring. Put it this way, if Ray Allen was a PG, he would have the same problems as Steph is having. Im not comparing the two, but their roles on their respective team sould be similar. Marbury should not be forced to choose between creating and scoring, he should be intergrated in our offense, along with other options. Trading Steph will not get us value back, and our coach should be able to simplify the game for him, to a point where his role is defined as scoring guard, not the only creator on the team.

So, in summation, keep Steph because he's very good, but dont ask him to create for the team, because he cant be both the architect and the builder. i'd rather he was intergrated into our offense, instead of being asked to hold the ball until he can score or find an open man.

[Edited by - firefly on 12-19-2005 05:16 AM]

I couldnt agree with this more, but the only reason why I think it might be a good idea to trade steph is becuase larry brown for some inexpicable reason is dead set against using marbury at the SG spot. All I can hope is that marbury gets the hang of it like billups did but how long should we wait for that? But I agree with you that the knicks would be ALOT better off with marbury at the SG spot, but larry brown is too blind/stubborn to see that.

[Edited by - slimpack on 12-19-2005 09:40 AM]


To blind/stubborn - I think he sees a lot better then you. Whose the point guard?
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12/20/2005  7:40 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Crawford has run the offense worse than Marbs but most people don't see it.

I don't like Marbs as a PG. But I agree with you Craw is worse.

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12/20/2005  7:40 PM
Posted by OldFan:
Posted by SlimPack:
Posted by firefly:

I would rather keep Steph and get our coaching staff to utilize his talents better. Noone can argue that marbury is our most talented player. But he can only thrive in a certain type of offense. The ball needs to be in his hands, but someone else has to be able to make plays so that Steph can become a PART of the offense as opposed to BEING the offense. We have a coach in LB who has the experiance and nouse to be able to do that if he wants to. Playing a higher tempo offense where whoever brings the ball up ( see Crawford, Jamal) will look for the post pass or Marbury will not take away from Larry mantra of Defense and rebounding, and it will be benificial for Stephon where he doesnt feel torn between creating and scoring. Put it this way, if Ray Allen was a PG, he would have the same problems as Steph is having. Im not comparing the two, but their roles on their respective team sould be similar. Marbury should not be forced to choose between creating and scoring, he should be intergrated in our offense, along with other options. Trading Steph will not get us value back, and our coach should be able to simplify the game for him, to a point where his role is defined as scoring guard, not the only creator on the team.

So, in summation, keep Steph because he's very good, but dont ask him to create for the team, because he cant be both the architect and the builder. i'd rather he was intergrated into our offense, instead of being asked to hold the ball until he can score or find an open man.

[Edited by - firefly on 12-19-2005 05:16 AM]

I couldnt agree with this more, but the only reason why I think it might be a good idea to trade steph is becuase larry brown for some inexpicable reason is dead set against using marbury at the SG spot. All I can hope is that marbury gets the hang of it like billups did but how long should we wait for that? But I agree with you that the knicks would be ALOT better off with marbury at the SG spot, but larry brown is too blind/stubborn to see that.

[Edited by - slimpack on 12-19-2005 09:40 AM]


To blind/stubborn - I think he sees a lot better then you. Whose the point guard?

marbury
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12/20/2005  7:48 PM
Posted by SlimPack:
Posted by Bippity10:

LB has stated from the beginning that he would like to move Steph to the 2, but htat he didn't have a real PG that allowed him that option. As Crawford learns from LB and gets more comfortable in that role he will get more minutes. But at the moment Steph runs the offense better than craw and we are not better letting him run the point 35 mintes a night. Let's be patient and let the guy learn. despite the hate Steph is still our best PG. But it's a learning process for everyone

its just that when I watch the team it actually appears that crawford runs the point better, but the thing is brown never lets crawford play the point more than 5 minutes at time so theres really no way to tell if crawford could run it better than marbury consistently, but you do have a point that if crawford could do it larry would have noticed it already, but then again larry also up until a few games ago used to start AD, who every peice of available statistical evidence known to man says is terrible, and he only realized that david lee is a worthy of minutes last game whereas fans knew it for like a month. But there should be some logic to LBs methods.


Every piece of evidence - but have you noticed the team hasn't played any better without AD starting. So maybe this HUGE mistake LB was making - wasn't so major. I think LB realizes that he's going to have to get something out of some of his vets for this team to improve. Because the young guys all bring talent and hustle - but not enough smarts. So he's giving the vets every opportunity to provide the intelligence. Unfortunately - it's not happening. But as obvious as it is that the vets are under performing it seems just as obvious that the youth can't do it alone.
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12/20/2005  7:55 PM
Posted by OldFan:
Posted by SlimPack:
Posted by Bippity10:

LB has stated from the beginning that he would like to move Steph to the 2, but htat he didn't have a real PG that allowed him that option. As Crawford learns from LB and gets more comfortable in that role he will get more minutes. But at the moment Steph runs the offense better than craw and we are not better letting him run the point 35 mintes a night. Let's be patient and let the guy learn. despite the hate Steph is still our best PG. But it's a learning process for everyone

its just that when I watch the team it actually appears that crawford runs the point better, but the thing is brown never lets crawford play the point more than 5 minutes at time so theres really no way to tell if crawford could run it better than marbury consistently, but you do have a point that if crawford could do it larry would have noticed it already, but then again larry also up until a few games ago used to start AD, who every peice of available statistical evidence known to man says is terrible, and he only realized that david lee is a worthy of minutes last game whereas fans knew it for like a month. But there should be some logic to LBs methods.


Every piece of evidence - but have you noticed the team hasn't played any better without AD starting. So maybe this HUGE mistake LB was making - wasn't so major. I think LB realizes that he's going to have to get something out of some of his vets for this team to improve. Because the young guys all bring talent and hustle - but not enough smarts. So he's giving the vets every opportunity to provide the intelligence. Unfortunately - it's not happening. But as obvious as it is that the vets are under performing it seems just as obvious that the youth can't do it alone.

yeah thats true, acutally tony davis has been playing kind of energetic lately, it doesnt make any sense. I think I just figured out why LB has such a big rotation, becuase no one on our team can play well consistently
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12/20/2005  8:07 PM
Posted by OldFan:
Posted by Bippity10:

Crawford has run the offense worse than Marbs but most people don't see it.

I don't like Marbs as a PG. But I agree with you Craw is worse.

Umm.....you 2 care to explain that?

B/c I've actually seen Crawford clicking far better with everyone at point than Steph has.

DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
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