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I guess Nash doesn't need the excuses like Marbury does
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islesfan
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12/10/2005  12:34 PM
Posted by tkf:

really isle, wouldn't it just be easier to go root for another team? I mean why bother?

Because I've invested 25 years rooting for this team and I want to see them win another championship before another 25 years goes by. Is that ok with you?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
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McK1
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12/10/2005  12:35 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by djsunyc:

i don't think we can "blame" steph for the loss last night at all. i think he did everything lb asked him to do last night. he was pretty much dumping it into the post and he was taking jumpers early b/c he was hitting them. he didn't really just put his head down and drowned out the team to get his. and he made a concerted effort to get it into the post almost to a fault.

but that doesn't mean steph is the long-term answer for us at the point (which i don't think he is). but i don't think criticizing steph in THIS GAME is warranted.

13 of 19 on the road and we're 6-13. kind of makes sense, no?

we kind of have to start winning sooner than later b/c there is alot riding on it so hopefully this homestand helps.

I never criticized Marbury for THIS GAME. I've criticized the Marbury trade for putting us in this position, especially if he isn't the long term answer for us at PG. If that's the case then what was the point of the trade in the first place? For some street cred? That's moronic and shows zero foresight. How can a GM be that shortsighted at that great of a cost to the organization?

hey, i'm in your boat concerning steph BUT i think a major flaw in the deal was isiah banking on h20 being healthy and h20 and steph would've been a great fit. yes, we gave up alot for him and i just wish isiah would admit that based on our situation now, the steph deal hasn't worked out as hoped and is ready to turn the page. i still think we're going to move him, probably in a draft night deal to get some picks.

at that salary, what team would give up a draft pick for Marbury? Toronto might've possibly been open to a Steph for Jalen swap but I'm quite sure IT asked for picks and that ended all discussions.

Houston may want to deal for Steph but it would take a 3rd team with capspace.

the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
tkf
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12/10/2005  12:37 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by tkf:

really isle, wouldn't it just be easier to go root for another team? I mean why bother?

Because I've invested 25 years rooting for this team and I want to see them win another championship before another 25 years goes by. Is that ok with you?


I say cut your loses, sometimes you have to do that, especially if the investment starts to turn you into a bitter person...

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
BlueSeats
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12/10/2005  12:38 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

hey, i'm in your boat concerning steph BUT i think a major flaw in the deal was isiah banking on h20 being healthy and h20 and steph would've been a great fit. yes, we gave up alot for him and i just wish isiah would admit that based on our situation now, the steph deal hasn't worked out as hoped and is ready to turn the page. i still think we're going to move him, probably in a draft night deal to get some picks.

I agree with this, and I think it's a discredit to isiah (who I like) that he pounced on the Marbury deal so quickly on the job, before sussing out Houston's health. There was still more than a month to go before the deadline, and Marbury and Penny (almost 30M in payroll) were going nowhere else at the time. Waiting a few more weeks would have not only given isiah time to assess our present personnel, but I think at a minimum it would have also allowed him to sweat a better deal out of Colangelo.
BlueSeats
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12/10/2005  12:46 PM
Posted by tkf:

you feel me blue? I know you do...

Of course. You know you'll always be my favorite homer...

kissy kiss
McK1
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12/10/2005  12:47 PM
Isiah should've assessed the value of the draft picks. 1st job as team architect isn't to guage the trade market, its to guage the draft market. 04 was a very good draft to solve the problems at point long-term or finding the replacement at 2 for Houston. People say well he got Frye in 05. League rules prevent trading picks in successive years. If he could Dampier would be a Knick and Frye would be a Warrior.

[Edited by - McK1 on 12-10-2005 12:48 PM]
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
islesfan
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12/10/2005  1:08 PM
Posted by tkf:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by tkf:

really isle, wouldn't it just be easier to go root for another team? I mean why bother?

Because I've invested 25 years rooting for this team and I want to see them win another championship before another 25 years goes by. Is that ok with you?


I say cut your loses, sometimes you have to do that, especially if the investment starts to turn you into a bitter person...

No offense but the day I let you or anybody else tell me who to be a fan of and when to stop, it will be one cold day in hell.

Gee why would anyone be bitter or frustrated by watching a team performing and put together this badly. That just makes me normal. What's your excuse for not
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
mythfaze
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12/10/2005  1:25 PM
Posted by tkf:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by tkf:

really isle, wouldn't it just be easier to go root for another team? I mean why bother?

Because I've invested 25 years rooting for this team and I want to see them win another championship before another 25 years goes by. Is that ok with you?


I say cut your loses, sometimes you have to do that, especially if the investment starts to turn you into a bitter person...

Give me a break. Anybody who up and leaves because of hard times isn't a real fan. Enough calling isles out and questioning whether he's a fan or not; he obviously is. Because his opinions differ from many peoples and aren't filled with an endless supply of "kool aid" doesn't mean anything.
martin
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12/10/2005  1:32 PM
Posted by mythfaze:
Posted by tkf:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by tkf:

really isle, wouldn't it just be easier to go root for another team? I mean why bother?

Because I've invested 25 years rooting for this team and I want to see them win another championship before another 25 years goes by. Is that ok with you?


I say cut your loses, sometimes you have to do that, especially if the investment starts to turn you into a bitter person...

Give me a break. Anybody who up and leaves because of hard times isn't a real fan. Enough calling isles out and questioning whether he's a fan or not; he obviously is. Because his opinions differ from many peoples and aren't filled with an endless supply of "kool aid" doesn't mean anything.

I have to tell you guys, as much as I sometimes disagree with Isles I would say that he is one of my more fav posters cause of his unique and fairly consistent opinions. Some of his posts are whack but what the hell. Dude ain't drinkin the Kook Aid but maybe it's Beam or something real strong
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eViL
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12/10/2005  1:49 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Marbury played with Marion when he was a 20-10 player, so how can Nash playing with Marion be an excuse???

And the Suns ended up in the playoffs pushing the Spurs as far as any team did. No one beat the Spurs that year so I don't think we should hang that playoff series loss over his head.

Ultimately, I ask you - what's your point? The Knicks traded a pick. It might turn into a good player that we'll miss out on. SO WHAT?? How about we dwell on it for the next 30 years. There are a lot of people on this forum who manage to have diverse opinions, who don't fall into the hater/lover dichotomy, why don't you join us? I've agreed to validity of a lot of points against Marbury and the Knicks' plan in general, but even in doing so - I've stood my assertion that the team is on it's way to being really good.

You show up when the time is right, just to $h!t on the Knicks. If I had such a bleak view of the Knicks future, I wouldn't be spending time posting on a forum about them. How many posts do you have? In how many did you say something even remotely positive? Why are you here? Do you think you're gonna somehow make an impact on the organization with your posting talents? Are you here to express your opinion, just like everyone has a right to do? Well then - show some depth, instead of being the shallow parody of yourself that you have become. You are predictable. You are one-dimensional. You are the posting equivalent of Jerome James (without the upside).
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BlueSeats
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12/10/2005  1:53 PM
Posted by martin:

I have to tell you guys, as much as I sometimes disagree with Isles I would say that he is one of my more fav posters cause of his unique and fairly consistent opinions. Some of his posts are whack but what the hell. Dude ain't drinkin the Kook Aid but maybe it's Beam or something real strong

Excellent. See this is the difference between this board and realgm. On realgm the moderators are actually sanctioned to attack the credibility of "haters", and insinuate they are bad for the board. Trust me, I got it a lot over there and for taking issue with moderators who suggest skeptical views have no real place on the board I was suspended.

The funny thing is that now that myself and a couple of others are gone or less active, I see threads springing up by many of the people so often opposed to our views parroting our observations as though they are their own original thoughts. Folks saying stuff like, "is it me or does anyone else notice that Steph isn't that great of a playmaker", or "I'm noticing Steph has trouble feeding the post or setting up bigs for easy baskets", or "did anyone see the look he gave so and so, is it possible Steph is bad for chemistry?"

But never will you hear them say "hey, looks like some of that stuff the haters were saying for years might be true and we shouldn't have been bashing their skulls all this time." You don't hear a lot of that....
mythfaze
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12/10/2005  2:10 PM
Posted by eViL:
Posted by islesfan:

Marbury played with Marion when he was a 20-10 player, so how can Nash playing with Marion be an excuse???

And the Suns ended up in the playoffs pushing the Spurs as far as any team did. No one beat the Spurs that year so I don't think we should hang that playoff series loss over his head.

Ultimately, I ask you - what's your point? The Knicks traded a pick. It might turn into a good player that we'll miss out on. SO WHAT?? How about we dwell on it for the next 30 years. There are a lot of people on this forum who manage to have diverse opinions, who don't fall into the hater/lover dichotomy, why don't you join us? I've agreed to validity of a lot of points against Marbury and the Knicks' plan in general, but even in doing so - I've stood my assertion that the team is on it's way to being really good.

You show up when the time is right, just to $h!t on the Knicks. If I had such a bleak view of the Knicks future, I wouldn't be spending time posting on a forum about them. How many posts do you have? In how many did you say something even remotely positive? Why are you here? Do you think you're gonna somehow make an impact on the organization with your posting talents? Are you here to express your opinion, just like everyone has a right to do? Well then - show some depth, instead of being the shallow parody of yourself that you have become. You are predictable. You are one-dimensional. You are the posting equivalent of Jerome James (without the upside).

So you should only spend time discussing the Knicks when you have happy fluffy things to say about them? Consistancy isn't the same thing as being one dimensional. Because his posts are consitantly critical of the organization doesn't make them one dimensional. And I think they're a lot better than the "OMG Ariza is the next T-Mac without a doubt the Knicks are going to win it all this year!!!! " posts that find their way to the surface sometimes.
eViL
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12/10/2005  2:24 PM
So in order to combat the "homers", you guys have to be one-dimensional "haters". How about seeing both sides? If you consistantly have only one thing to say, you are one-dimensional.
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Nalod
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12/10/2005  2:26 PM
I never understood the venom spewed toward the Suns and Pluto Nash. what we are doing and what they did is unrelated. The Suns sucking does not make Marbs, or our team any better or worse.

At 13 and 6, and 9 game win streak the Suns are hot and Nash has justified to the doubter he was deserving of the MVP. That team has replaced Amare and Shoeless Joe with Boris and KT, and they are doing it.

Does Playing with Nash make you better? Tought to say, but Nash playing makes the team very good, and I think the definition of MVP is not who is the best player, but which player makes his team that much better. Nash is very deserving of that consideration and I am glad it went to a point guard over another big man.

PHX will go further than us in the playoffs. Its till way early. Lets hope we can meet them in the Finals sometime soon!
nykshaknbake
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12/10/2005  3:13 PM
It's a risk you tkae when you sign a marquee player. If Garnett's knees break down next season, the Wolves are stuck w/ his contract too. Anyway, tell me what were we gonna get better at PG then or even say if we had the same material now to trade? If nothing better, then why is being stuck w/ Marbury a bad thing? If we really wanted him gone as many of you do, we could just waive him. We'd still be a trillion dollars over the cap either way. It'd be nice if he would have played for the the MLE, but having his contract and talent is better than letting all those bozos we traded go away on their own or anything we could have gotten for them. That's why it was a great trade.
Posted by SlimPack:
Posted by nykshaknbake:

Slim, let's take salary out of the picture once and for all. It isn't relevant at all, but just is used as rhetoric. 2nd what did we give up for Marbury? Lampe? expiring contracts? a broken Dice? Not exactly a high price. We weren't gonna get a KG or Duncan or Kobe for expiring contracts and a couple of draft picks. I still think it was a great trade.

well the reason why I keep mentioning it is becuase, it limits the knick's options, if marbury doesnt work out, or a better deal becomes available, the knicks may not be able to trade marbury becuase of his atrocious contract if the wanted to. which lends to the theory that it was a bad trade.

[Edited by - SlimPack on 12-10-2005 12:12 PM]
SlimPack
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12/10/2005  3:37 PM
Posted by nykshaknbake:

It's a risk you tkae when you sign a marquee player. If Garnett's knees break down next season, the Wolves are stuck w/ his contract too. Anyway, tell me what were we gonna get better at PG then or even say if we had the same material now to trade? If nothing better, then why is being stuck w/ Marbury a bad thing? If we really wanted him gone as many of you do, we could just waive him. We'd still be a trillion dollars over the cap either way. It'd be nice if he would have played for the the MLE, but having his contract and talent is better than letting all those bozos we traded go away on their own or anything we could have gotten for them. That's why it was a great trade.
Posted by SlimPack:
Posted by nykshaknbake:

Slim, let's take salary out of the picture once and for all. It isn't relevant at all, but just is used as rhetoric. 2nd what did we give up for Marbury? Lampe? expiring contracts? a broken Dice? Not exactly a high price. We weren't gonna get a KG or Duncan or Kobe for expiring contracts and a couple of draft picks. I still think it was a great trade.

well the reason why I keep mentioning it is becuase, it limits the knick's options, if marbury doesnt work out, or a better deal becomes available, the knicks may not be able to trade marbury becuase of his atrocious contract if the wanted to. which lends to the theory that it was a bad trade.

[Edited by - SlimPack on 12-10-2005 12:12 PM]

yeah but, kevin garnett's team doesn't seem to be better off without him. you're making some good points but my arguement stems from the fact that I theorize that stephon marbury is a legitamite marquee player and that the knicks would have been a better team with a pg with pg skills, instead of an undersized shooting guard running the point. like baron davis, jose calderon, luke ridnour, raymond felton, brevin knight, and guys like that. I'm pretty sure that out of everyone on this list if NY had pushed for it strongly enough we could of had at least 1 of them. especially now that larry brown is our coach. barond davis has a large contract too but he actually seems to help his team win alot. I question whether marbury does.
Bonn1997
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12/10/2005  3:39 PM
Baron Davis helps his team win a lot? He once made it to the the 2nd round but I think his teams have also been in the lottery a higher percentage of his career than Marbury's have. I wouldn't give him an edge over Marbury. The only difference between the two is that Marbury doesn't miss games; Baron misses about 15 to 20 per year.
SlimPack
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12/10/2005  3:46 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Baron Davis helps his team win a lot? He once made it to the the 2nd round but I think his teams have also been in the lottery a higher percentage of his career than Marbury's have. I wouldn't give him an edge over Marbury. The only difference between the two is that Marbury doesn't miss games; Baron misses about 15 to 20 per year.

I wish marbury did miss games. Then I'd know for sure but he doesnt. if marbury is the only thing keeping this team from being an even worse team, than fine Ill accept that and abandon my beleif that he should be traded, I just wish there was some way to know for sure. cuase everytime marbury comes out of the game, it seems that the knicks go on a run. the warriors are a lottery team for sure without b-diddy, that much has been confirmed.

[Edited by - SlimPack on 12-10-2005 3:48 PM]
Andrew
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12/10/2005  3:53 PM
Posted by McK1:

AD haters

Phoenix' starting frontcourt dominated the Knicks starting frontcourt on the boards 31-21 without playing anyone over 6' 9 or anyone more than 240 lbs.

They didn't have to unleash El Toro. Lucky us...


Huh? As a team they were outrebounded by 7 and the SUns starting frontcourt played a bunch more minutes. Good compairison.
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McK1
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12/10/2005  3:58 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Baron Davis helps his team win a lot? He once made it to the the 2nd round but I think his teams have also been in the lottery a higher percentage of his career than Marbury's have. I wouldn't give him an edge over Marbury. The only difference between the two is that Marbury doesn't miss games; Baron misses about 15 to 20 per year.

Davis played for the Hornets from 99/00 to 04/05. New Orleans was .500 or better in every year but his last.

http://www.nba.com/hornets/history/SeasonBySeason.html

Warriors are 22-17 since acquiring Davis
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
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I guess Nash doesn't need the excuses like Marbury does
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