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the chad brings the spazz - ranks the east
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fishmike
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8/30/2005  2:08 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by rvhoss:

this summer, fish has gone crazy...that's just MHO.

I joined BECAUSE of fish...I loved his enthusiasm, loved his sig, he convinced me to join the board by his enthusiasm for the kool aid alone...

Now he's basically Isle's fan reincarnate...maybe he liked Kurt, maybe he liked nazr, but for sure, he's all negativity.

and yes, I'm speaking specifically of Fish.
I actually agree with all that. He was one of my favorite posters at MSG. I remember when he would defend Isiah whenever Isles would bash him. (This brings back so many MSG memories!) But like you said, he and Isles are becoming more and more indistinguishable.
you guys are such homers! Can I still come over after school!

I loved what Isiah was doing! He was purging Layden's fodder. He brought in a player worth watching on TV! The Knicks started playing harder right away! He waived Slavko and activated Sweets! Gone were Spoon, Ward and Eisley. While TT didnt work out at least there was logic. I thought no more poison contracts. Crawford was a good young player and I still like him. Ariza was a steal. There was a plan.

Then along the way he killed any shot at getting the $20mm in 07 cap space they could have been headed towards and traded for Malik Rose. Then Mo Taylor, then gave Jerome JAmes a poison contract.

Sorry... those moves SUCK. Even Vin Baker (totally suck move) was not a biggie because there's only a 2 year commitment, and it doesnt affect future flexibility.

The other moves do, and I'm now pretty sure Isiah could care less about what happens in 2 years. If the league says you can give a guy 5 years and $30mm he's going to do it. Thats lame.

This in no way subtracts from my excitement about next season, about Crawford's development at the end of the season, about Marbury playing under LB, about Sweets possibly having a breakout year, about Frye, Lee, Nate and Ariza. About Q bringing Brandy to games.

Still pumped about those things... it just hasnt blinded me to the obvious as it has some.


"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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islesfan
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8/30/2005  2:17 PM
This in no way subtracts from my excitement about next season, about Crawford's development at the end of the season, about Marbury playing under LB, about Sweets possibly having a breakout year, about Frye, Lee, Nate and Ariza. About Q bringing Brandy to games.

Stop being such a homer Fish. You disgust me with your Kool-Aid induced ramblings.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
fishmike
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8/30/2005  2:19 PM
maybe we both need a hooker! Or at least a back rub and a happy ending.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
rvhoss
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8/30/2005  2:22 PM
It's funny, you list more positives in your next to last paragraph:
This in no way subtracts from my excitement about next season, about Crawford's development at the end of the season, about Marbury playing under LB, about Sweets possibly having a breakout year, about Frye, Lee, Nate and Ariza. About Q bringing Brandy to games.
Than negatives in your entire post.

Think about the positives, not the 3 ****ball roster moves you can't let go of, that may pan out much like David Lee did (who is better than Nazr IMHO and used with the "useless" first round pick it was branded as).

Still pumped about those things... it just hasnt blinded me to the obvious as it has some

which just shows you are mad at somebody for some reason for being optimistic about the things you said in the previous sentence.

see sig.
all kool aid all the time.
islesfan
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8/30/2005  2:32 PM
Think about the positives, not the 3 ****ball roster moves you can't let go of, that may pan out much like David Lee did (who is better than Nazr IMHO and used with the "useless" first round pick it was branded as).

David Lee has already panned out? Did I miss the start of the season already??? Wow, and to think, I thought he hasn't played a single second of NBA ball yet but according to you, he's already panned out.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
fishmike
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8/30/2005  2:35 PM
FYI: your sig is lame
but not as lame as this:
which just shows you are mad at somebody for some reason for being optimistic about the things you said in the previous sentence.
now pointing out obvious moves means I'm mad. Nice.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
rvhoss
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8/30/2005  3:07 PM
if it isn't fish' girlfriend running to his rescue...i figured Islesfan would show up.

He needs you buddy...he's flailing again, now he's attacking signatures.

Boo Hoo...boo hoo.

5,500 posts and half were this summer ranting over spilled milk (the other half were about knee surgery).

Can't wait until the eat crow posts.

Oh.."FYI: your sig is lame", FYI: your come back was lame. BTW...lame isn't used anymore by adults.

Go Knicks! Suckas


[Edited by - rvhoss on 08-30-2005 3:13 PM]
all kool aid all the time.
islesfan
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8/30/2005  3:28 PM
Figures. I guess you don't want to even attempt to backup your ridiculous statement that David Lee has already panned out without playing a single second yet. Not surprising that you have no interest in actually standing up to your comments.

What happens when you don't have the intelligence to back up your own statements? Apparently you make ridiculously lame 2nd grade insults. What's the matter, "We Rule, You Drool" was taken already? Pathetic.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
fishmike
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8/30/2005  3:38 PM
I like how you never have an answer. How some are willing to discuss why something is a good or bad move, and the best you have is we are negative, its spilled milk and I'm angry or "lashing out."

Its ok to be a homer... it really is. I mean honest to god I think its great. You think everything Knicks smells like roses, that every move will be great, that every rookie will be a star and every veteran will find their niche. You think we will compete for a title this year. You probably think I am patronizing you but I'm not. The problem is you dont know this about yourself. So when some members are trying to have a discussion about basketball and question if a move is really good for the team you have to chime in with "of course its good." When someone offers a logical reason it might not be a good move your reaction is spilled milk and "your angry." Thats a bit annoying.

Start a kool-aid only thread. I've done it several times in the past. Say logic need not apply and only the good and harp on about what your excited about. I bet most here add to it, including myself.

This thread was about whether or not Chad's assesment was fair. Of course its NOT fair because Isiah farts perfume and all you smell is roses, but some good and fair points have been made that Chad's assesment is very fair, and that saying a 33 win team will compete for the playoffs is quite a big compliment.

I only mentioned your sig because you wrote "check out my sig." I did, and responded in turn.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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8/30/2005  6:03 PM
You think everything Knicks smells like roses, that every move will be great, that every rookie will be a star and every veteran will find their niche. You think we will compete for a title this year. You probably think I am patronizing you but I'm not. The problem is you dont know this about yourself. So when some members are trying to have a discussion about basketball and question if a move is really good for the team you have to chime in with "of course its good." When someone offers a logical reason it might not be a good move your reaction is spilled milk and "your angry." Thats a bit annoying.
I think very few if any Isiah supporters fit that description. Most agree with the majority but not all of his decisions. I know your statement was directed toward RVHOSS and not me, but I notice a puzzling trend among Isiah critics to claim that supporters think everything Isiah did was perfect.
nyballer
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8/30/2005  6:28 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
You think everything Knicks smells like roses, that every move will be great, that every rookie will be a star and every veteran will find their niche. You think we will compete for a title this year. You probably think I am patronizing you but I'm not. The problem is you dont know this about yourself. So when some members are trying to have a discussion about basketball and question if a move is really good for the team you have to chime in with "of course its good." When someone offers a logical reason it might not be a good move your reaction is spilled milk and "your angry." Thats a bit annoying.
I think very few if any Isiah supporters fit that description. Most agree with the majority but not all of his decisions. I know your statement was directed toward RVHOSS and not me, but I notice a puzzling trend among Isiah critics to claim that supporters think everything Isiah did was perfect.


the same thing happens when somebody criticizes a move...if someone thinks that jerome james is overpaid everoyne goes "i guess you'd rather have layden?!?! we have 3 rookies, etc. etc." ... just because people disagree with some moves doesn't mean they think everything Isiah has done is bad. I think pretty much everyone is happy we got 3 rookies, even if some people didnt want channing frye, in general people think that we had a pretty good draft. Nobody really hates the Q deal either...the deals people most have a problem wtih are Mo Taylor and Jerome James' signing, and the Malik trade
"easy like sunday morning..." - walt clyde
rvhoss
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8/30/2005  7:47 PM
see sig
all kool aid all the time.
Bonn1997
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8/30/2005  7:50 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by rvhoss:

this summer, fish has gone crazy...that's just MHO.

I joined BECAUSE of fish...I loved his enthusiasm, loved his sig, he convinced me to join the board by his enthusiasm for the kool aid alone...

Now he's basically Isle's fan reincarnate...maybe he liked Kurt, maybe he liked nazr, but for sure, he's all negativity.

and yes, I'm speaking specifically of Fish.
I actually agree with all that. He was one of my favorite posters at MSG. I remember when he would defend Isiah whenever Isles would bash him. (This brings back so many MSG memories!) But like you said, he and Isles are becoming more and more indistinguishable.
you guys are such homers! Can I still come over after school!

I loved what Isiah was doing! He was purging Layden's fodder. He brought in a player worth watching on TV! The Knicks started playing harder right away! He waived Slavko and activated Sweets! Gone were Spoon, Ward and Eisley. While TT didnt work out at least there was logic.
I think you just don't distinguish between "having no plan" and "having a plan that you don't like" (or "lacking logic"). If Isiah is trying to get young players who can help the team both now and in the future and get veterans who can help the team now, then which moves has he made that don't theoretically make sense? That's a different question than asking "which moves worked out poorly?" Like you said, a GM can have a reasonable plan but make some moves that don't work out well just because GMs are human and make mistakes at times; your TT example was a good one (although I'm not sure I'd prefer Van Horn but that's another discussion).
I know you view the Mo T trade as meaning Isiah has no plan, but what if it simply means that Isiah viewed Mo (perhaps *incorrectly*) as a veteran who could help the team win more games now than Baker and Moochie could (and more than their $3.5 mil each expiring contracts could one year later)? Then the Mo T deal is NOT an indication that Isiah has no plan or has an ambiguous plan; it's just an indication that *while sticking to his plan* of getting veterans who can help now and young players who can help now and in the future, he sometimes makes a mistake.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08-30-2005 7:53 PM]
rvhoss
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8/30/2005  7:55 PM
why you so angry fish?

Keep in mind, one shouldn't cry over spilled milk.

also, you shouldn't lash out so much.

Try not to be so negative.


Hey, I'm all about being a homer:



[Edited by - rvhoss on 08-30-2005 7:59 PM]
all kool aid all the time.
Bonn1997
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8/30/2005  7:56 PM
Posted by nyballer:
Posted by Bonn1997:
You think everything Knicks smells like roses, that every move will be great, that every rookie will be a star and every veteran will find their niche. You think we will compete for a title this year. You probably think I am patronizing you but I'm not. The problem is you dont know this about yourself. So when some members are trying to have a discussion about basketball and question if a move is really good for the team you have to chime in with "of course its good." When someone offers a logical reason it might not be a good move your reaction is spilled milk and "your angry." Thats a bit annoying.
I think very few if any Isiah supporters fit that description. Most agree with the majority but not all of his decisions. I know your statement was directed toward RVHOSS and not me, but I notice a puzzling trend among Isiah critics to claim that supporters think everything Isiah did was perfect.
the same thing happens when somebody criticizes a move...if someone thinks that jerome james is overpaid everoyne goes "i guess you'd rather have layden?!?!
I agree! Many supporters too often call critics haters. Then critics get devastated and think it's the worst thing in the world that someone thought they were a hater; they whine about it, put it in their signatures, and discuss it with their psychiatrists (okay I made that last one up). Similarly, many critics call supporters "'homers' who think Isiah is God"; "apologists"; "'kool-aid' drinkers who think Isiah never made one mistake." It's amusing but also stupid how people view those on the other side of the issue in such black and white terms and people react so defensively to the terms.

rvhoss
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8/30/2005  7:58 PM
shades of grey baby...shades of grey.
all kool aid all the time.
Marv
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8/30/2005  7:59 PM
Posted by rvhoss:


Hey, I'm all about being a homer:


[Edited by - rvhoss on 08-30-2005 7:57 PM]

That is great!!!
djsunyc
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8/30/2005  8:00 PM
i think everyone that criticizes some of isiah's moves (myself included) are sort of looking at the way isiah is trying to rebuild here in a manner that has NEVER been done before. all, i know, i'm used to is breaking it down and building it back up. i've never seen a team so CARELESSLY throw money around like us before. closest thing was portland in 2000 - but the players they brought in were MUCH more talented than we were. yes, isiah has brought in young players but damn, he sure did pay for it. and this method of pretty much disregarding the cap is just new to me. and i can't see how it can conceivably work b/c you lose flexibility. yeah, there's that word again, flexibility. so in some aspects, he's doing what he should be doing and that's acquiring young talent. we still don't know if they'll pan out but that's a good plan. the vets he acquired to "help now" have been a BUST b/c our record got worse. i have no clue if this is going to work out but we sure as hell have seen A TON of moves and A TON of dollars thrown around, from coaches to players. this could turn out to be a damn EXPENSIVE mistake. it could turn out to be an EXPENSIVE homerun. or it could be an EXPENSIVE mediocre job. we still don't know but so far, although the overall plan is moving in the right direction, there are too many moves under it that can be questioned. so in my eyes, isiah has not OPTIMIZED his resources. and that's why there's room to question some of his moves.

i know alot of you don't like it when we question stuff b/c you're knicks fans and don't want to hear it BUT it is a valid side of the coin. it just hasn't worked out like we thought it would so far. last year was an UTTER FAILURE. that's ONE ENTIRE SEASON. so hells yeah, there's stuff to b tch about. and if you don't think there is, then you're not seeing the entire picture.
Bonn1997
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8/30/2005  8:30 PM
I agree with most of what you said, DJ, but have a few comments below.
i know, i'm used to is breaking it down and building it back up. i've never seen a team so CARELESSLY throw money around like us before.
What about the Yankees? The Knicks are basically building to become basketball's version of the Yankees, except I think Isiah is doing better operating under a salary cap than Cashman would if he had to start out with a garbage team and work under a cap.
last year was an UTTER FAILURE. that's ONE ENTIRE SEASON. so hells yeah, there's stuff to b tch about. and if you don't think there is, then you're not seeing the entire picture.
If you admit that the team is rebuilding (which you did; you called a different manner of rebuilding), then why does the first full year have to be judged by wins and losses rather than by roster moves?

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08-30-2005 8:31 PM]
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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8/30/2005  8:30 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Its ok to be a homer... it really is. I mean honest to god I think its great. You think everything Knicks smells like roses, that every move will be great, that every rookie will be a star and every veteran will find their niche. You think we will compete for a title this year.

Fish, if you replace the word "think" with the word "hope", it would accurately describe the perfect fan IMO. When several good moves are made, most fans would simply hope that the things you mentioned above would happen sooner than later.

Back in the dark days of LayDown, I was called a hater all the time, but didn't care because there were changes I wanted to see happen. Those dreams are now the reality, so I guess I am a Homer.

I wear that title like the badge of honor it is. A lot of us do, and no one should have to start a kool-aid thread any more than some folks would need to start a "Doom & Gloom, sky is falling no matter what improvements we make" thread.

Fellas, there's been too much good happen to this team this offseason for any legitimate debate on the justification of having some optimism. The offseason is driving us mad from boredom, and now we're turning on eachother like we're all stranded on some island. Let's just hope for the best a little more. There are more than enough people (that most of us come in contact with at some point) out there ready and willing to hate relentlessly on our Knicks. There should be alot more positive reinforcement IMO. Of course there are topics we all have our opinions about, sometimes it seems like the devil's advocate thing gets taken too far and stuff gets ugly. That's been happening in alot of the threads lately. Cats are getting really antsy on both "sides", so maybe we all need to take a deep breath and chill. Then we can get back to hoping for the best for the Knicks.

Damn, the season can't start soon enough.






Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
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