hey fish always enjoy reading your post...tkf yours too sometimes I wonder if we as fans try to find something to complain about just for the fun of it. the knicks are my team and sure theres nothing perfect about this team but...the GM is not the problem putting a championship team together that's the problem..

and thats who's responsibility? We all just want to see the Knicks get good again. I think this was the first offseason where we really got closer to winning a championship. Not because Frye or Nate will bring one per say, but because this philosophy will at least get us closer.

Posted by tkf:

Posted by fishmike:

well he did add Crawford, JYD, Baker and Ariza last offseason and we got significantly WORSE in the wins column. Do we just dust that under the carpet? In terms of wins and losses we havent been much better than when Frank Williams was pushing the ball and KVH was running the break for Don Chaney.

A year and a half is too short a time to really judge the w/l with a new GM, thats why you look at the other 2 things. However if we were winning more games I'm pretty sure there would be a lot of song and dance regarding our record with Isiah. There was a time when people were putting wins with Marbury vs. wins without in the freakin signatures, so if we can praise him for it we can knock him for it.

Thats why I said good GMs around the league have done at least 2 of the 3.

That is fair, but it is still a bit early to judge number 3, I mean when IT took over, added Steph, that same year we went from possibly being in the lottery to making the playoffs. Last year we regressed but in all fairness, injuries played a bigger part in that area than anything else..

injuries are an excuse. Every team deals with them. We didnt lose Tim Duncan or Shaq, but when Miami or San did they still found ways to win games. The pacers lost Artest 60+, Jackson 20+, Oneil 20+, etc and made the playoffs, by alot. When your payroll is $110mm your supposed to be able to survive for 3 weeks without Jamal Crawford. This is just reality, injuries arent an excuse for this team.

Posted by fishmike:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by fishmike:

well he did add Crawford, JYD, Baker and Ariza last offseason and we got significantly WORSE in the wins column. Do we just dust that under the carpet? In terms of wins and losses we havent been much better than when Frank Williams was pushing the ball and KVH was running the break for Don Chaney.

A year and a half is too short a time to really judge the w/l with a new GM, thats why you look at the other 2 things. However if we were winning more games I'm pretty sure there would be a lot of song and dance regarding our record with Isiah. There was a time when people were putting wins with Marbury vs. wins without in the freakin signatures, so if we can praise him for it we can knock him for it.

Thats why I said good GMs around the league have done at least 2 of the 3.

That is fair, but it is still a bit early to judge number 3, I mean when IT took over, added Steph, that same year we went from possibly being in the lottery to making the playoffs. Last year we regressed but in all fairness, injuries played a bigger part in that area than anything else..

injuries are an excuse. Every team deals with them. We didnt lose Tim Duncan or Shaq, but when Miami or San did they still found ways to win games. The pacers lost Artest 60+, Jackson 20+, Oneil 20+, etc and made the playoffs, by alot. When your payroll is $110mm your supposed to be able to survive for 3 weeks without Jamal Crawford. This is just reality, injuries arent an excuse for this team.

good point, hard to ague that one, I guess so far he has not done well in the wins and losses column, but I will give it a "I" for incomplete....

Posted by fishmike:

injuries are an excuse. Every team deals with them. We didnt lose Tim Duncan or Shaq, but when Miami or San did they still found ways to win games. The pacers lost Artest 60+, Jackson 20+, Oneil 20+, etc and made the playoffs, by alot. When your payroll is $110mm your supposed to be able to survive for 3 weeks without Jamal Crawford. This is just reality, injuries arent an excuse for this team.

That's a great post. Although losing a player like Crawford for 3 whole weeks is pretty rough. Even though Isiah supporters admit that he's better suited as a backup than a starter. Good thing we gave him that huge contract and also gave up the MLE because his agent apparently forced our tool of a GM into signing Vin Baker in a package deal.

Posted by tkf:

Posted by fishmike:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by fishmike:

well he did add Crawford, JYD, Baker and Ariza last offseason and we got significantly WORSE in the wins column. Do we just dust that under the carpet? In terms of wins and losses we havent been much better than when Frank Williams was pushing the ball and KVH was running the break for Don Chaney.

A year and a half is too short a time to really judge the w/l with a new GM, thats why you look at the other 2 things. However if we were winning more games I'm pretty sure there would be a lot of song and dance regarding our record with Isiah. There was a time when people were putting wins with Marbury vs. wins without in the freakin signatures, so if we can praise him for it we can knock him for it.

Thats why I said good GMs around the league have done at least 2 of the 3.

That is fair, but it is still a bit early to judge number 3, I mean when IT took over, added Steph, that same year we went from possibly being in the lottery to making the playoffs. Last year we regressed but in all fairness, injuries played a bigger part in that area than anything else..

injuries are an excuse. Every team deals with them. We didnt lose Tim Duncan or Shaq, but when Miami or San did they still found ways to win games. The pacers lost Artest 60+, Jackson 20+, Oneil 20+, etc and made the playoffs, by alot. When your payroll is $110mm your supposed to be able to survive for 3 weeks without Jamal Crawford. This is just reality, injuries arent an excuse for this team.

good point, hard to ague that one, I guess so far he has not done well in the wins and losses column, but I will give it a "I" for incomplete....

That's the whole point. You can't give anything other than an either incomplete to Fish's 3rd question or a prediction of increased wins. I would cautiously predict that replacing some of TT and Crawford's minutes with Q (a much better rebounder and a better defender) would make a big difference, that the young guys will help at least a little, and that adding Larry would make a big difference. The only logical analysis is either an incomplete or significant increase in wins, not a flatout "no" to the question of whether the team will win more games.

You guys know my view of Fish's 2nd question on cap space. I'd agree with Fish on the 1st question that the talent has improved significantly.

Posted by fishmike:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by fishmike:

well he did add Crawford, JYD, Baker and Ariza last offseason and we got significantly WORSE in the wins column. Do we just dust that under the carpet? In terms of wins and losses we havent been much better than when Frank Williams was pushing the ball and KVH was running the break for Don Chaney.

A year and a half is too short a time to really judge the w/l with a new GM, thats why you look at the other 2 things. However if we were winning more games I'm pretty sure there would be a lot of song and dance regarding our record with Isiah. There was a time when people were putting wins with Marbury vs. wins without in the freakin signatures, so if we can praise him for it we can knock him for it.

Thats why I said good GMs around the league have done at least 2 of the 3.

That is fair, but it is still a bit early to judge number 3, I mean when IT took over, added Steph, that same year we went from possibly being in the lottery to making the playoffs. Last year we regressed but in all fairness, injuries played a bigger part in that area than anything else..

injuries are an excuse. Every team deals with them. We didnt lose Tim Duncan or Shaq, but when Miami or San did they still found ways to win games. The pacers lost Artest 60+, Jackson 20+, Oneil 20+, etc and made the playoffs, by alot. When your payroll is $110mm your supposed to be able to survive for 3 weeks without Jamal Crawford. This is just reality, injuries arent an excuse for this team.

I don't buy the payroll argument for the Knicks. Houston has been useless for Isiah's entire tenure here (one could argue he screwed up the balance we had last season, he certainly pissed off Penny). On top of Houston, TT and Penny were dead weight last season, so was Shandon - if you lop those guys off - that's $57 million and suddenly the Knicks active roster is making $54 million - with 20 of that going to Marbury. Part of the dead weight is Isaih's fault, part of it comes out of trying to rid ourselves of the Layden mess.

I think we have to wait until the end of this season to effectively judge the payroll aspect.

The talent has been a plus, which I think everyone can agree.

The wins have been up and down, mostly down, but I firmly believe Isiah NEEDED to make the playoffs in his first season before doing anything else (check Dolan's press conference comments). Last year was a step back, but since making the playoffs for Dolan, he's added Ariza, Crawford, Q, Nate, Frye, Lee, Rose (and one more pick), Taylor and James and Larry Brown. The only BAD move was Taylor.

I think other than Taylor, the only BAD move was the hiring of Lenny, but that was also aimed at a short playoff run - and as we all remember do to the ridiculous Letterman moment and the Daily News' ridiculous "breaking" of the Fratello story, Zeke was forced into action - and made a bad move.

Really, other than the coaching thing and the monumentally stupid trade for Mo Taylor, I'm on board with almost everything Zeke has done. He has been under pressure from Dolan to do certain things, and yeah that's an excuse, but it's also reality.

Zeke has done a good job. Could other people have done better? Yes, probably. Are we in much better shape going into this season than I thought we would be? Absolutely. I think Zeke has done a good job. This is the best team we've had since 2000-1, and that team was on the way down while this team is on the way up with many young players and several valuable trading chips.

It wasn't the Crawford injury that killed us. It was Houston only playing 10games. Which also forced Crawford to have a more important role which made his injury hurt more than it should as well.

We had Herb Williams a rookie coach not Rick Carslie(spell) one of todays best coaches. Sure that is Isiahs fault, for hiring Lenny Wilkins then firing him. But he more than made that up by landing Larry Brown which he still can't get credit for by some.

I agree 100% though. Until results come all the praising is premature. Isiah could land Tim Duncan but if something happen which prevented Duncan from producing Ws in his tenure here then the move wouldn't mean anything. So adding talent without results don't mean anything. But adding talent is usually the first step. Add in talent and then a great coach and your in the right path.

The fear is that the Knicks organization is happy with being mediocre as long as they make playoffs every yr. And that is a legit fear until they prove otherwise.

Posted by Marv:

Posted by newyorknewyork:

It wasn't the Crawford injury that killed us. It was Houston only playing 10games.

i agree with that. what hurt us equally was tt getting so tiny and vin proving to have zero in the tank. i for one don't believe vin was picked up just to appease an agent. i think he was really going to be looked to as a major cog under the hoop.

Me too. He was gonna start for us last year until we made the trade for Nazzy. He didn't look to bad to me when he played, he blocked shots the times I saw him in, he just had a hard time scoring. But I guess there is a reason he didnt play much even after Nazzy was gone.