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What about tonight's game.... (vs WASH)
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bobs3304
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7/10/2005  1:04 PM
Nate, skill-wise, is top 10 talent. I think he'll be ready to start seriously contributing by next year. If Marbury isn't dealt this summer, I fully expect him to be done in NY by 06...
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
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oohah
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7/10/2005  1:53 PM
what still puzzles me are the lee to JYD comparisons, they are very different, lee is quicker, taller, jumps higher, finishes better,

I have seen JYD do all that and more just last year. In at least one game JYD missed a free throw his own rebound and slammed it over everyone. in a couple of other games this years he crammed it over CENTERS (I think one of those games was in Chicago. He only had a few big games this year, it was one of those.) Take a look at some of JYD's clips from College and you will see much nastier slams than what we saw from Lee last night (They were good slams though.) There is a reason that JYD is so popular besides his hustle: he is athletic and VERY good finisher. He deserved more time than TT last year for sure.

JYD is also a good spot up shooter. david Lee's shot looks real funky. I haven't see it go in yet.

Malik Rose: he ain't no High-flyer, but does anyone remember him cramming it in Mutombo's face a few years ago? When Lee can do that he can be compared to MR and JYD.
I mean when was the last time you saw one of our forwards beat his man down the court, take a pass and go for a reverse dunk? I will save you the trouble... NEVER... I have seen ariza do that but none of our PF's. that is for sure.....

Ariza is a higher level athlete even for the NBA. Remember David Lee's reverse dunk was a no defense play and the second dunk was with no defense either courtesy of PJ the bum Ramos.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 07/10/2005 14:00:41]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
oohah
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7/10/2005  1:56 PM
Nate, skill-wise, is top 10 talent. I think he'll be ready to start seriously contributing by next year. If Marbury isn't dealt this summer, I fully expect him to be done in NY by 06...

If Marbury gets dealt (VERY UNLIKELY) it won't be because Nate Robinson beats him out. Marbury is one of the best point guards in the NBA, NR is an undersized player with an incredible game and ability. But that doesn't make him Marbury' s replacement...he has a lot to prove before he can do that and he probably can't do it in one or two years.

oohah
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Marv
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7/10/2005  2:02 PM
I haven't watched Nate yet but I'm psyched to.

My thought at this point - whay not be extremely happy to have this guy in the backcourt rotation and not turn it into a "replace Marbury" thing? Nate's biggest advantage for us could be off the bench. He might be of a lot less value as a starter. Teams do real well when they have a guy off the bench who brings a lift and spark like him. There tends to be a lot more taking advantage of their unique skills that way, instead of putting them in as starters and exposing their flaws.
tkf
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7/10/2005  2:09 PM
Posted by oohah:
what still puzzles me are the lee to JYD comparisons, they are very different, lee is quicker, taller, jumps higher, finishes better,

I have seen JYD do all that and more just last year. In at least one game JYD missed a free throw his own rebound and slammed it over everyone. in a couple of other games this years he crammed it over CENTERS (I think one of those games was in Chicago. He only had a few big games this year, it was one of those.) Take a look at some of JYD's clips from College and you will see much nastier slams than what we saw from Lee last night (They were good slams though.) There is a reason that JYD is so popular besides his hustle: he is athletic and VERY good finisher. He deserved more time than TT last year for sure.

JYD is also a good spot up shooter. david Lee's shot looks real funky. I haven't see it go in yet.

Malik Rose: he ain't no High-flyer, but does anyone remember him cramming it in Mutombo's face a few years ago? When Lee can do that he can be compared to MR and JYD.
I mean when was the last time you saw one of our forwards beat his man down the court, take a pass and go for a reverse dunk? I will save you the trouble... NEVER... I have seen ariza do that but none of our PF's. that is for sure.....

Ariza is a higher level athlete even for the NBA. Remember David Lee's reverse dunk was a no defense play and the second dunk was with no defense either courtesy of PJ the bum Ramos.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 07/10/2005 14:00:41]

I well remember JYD in college, he was a good athlete but not the run and jump athlete lee is right now I am sorry, I have seen JYD get a few dunks but he and rose are not dunking on guys in traffic, nor are they beating anyone to the basket on their own and finishing, rose does so when there is a big breakdown in the defense and JYD is doing it off feeds. To call lee a JYD type player I think is selling him short, I think his game is more fundamentally sound than JYD, meaning he is a better passer and handles the ball much better, when JYD puts the ball on the floor it usually is not a good thing... I like JYD and rose, I just think lee may be the better player down the road..

BTW: if you remember lee's first dunk, he started the play by tipping the ball from the defender, then he completely outran blatche and got the ball for the dunk, the reason why is was a so called "no defense play" is because the defense was trailing, he outran the defense and that is why IT got this kid, for plays just like that....

[Edited by - tkf on 07/10/2005 14:11:32]
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
oohah
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7/10/2005  2:09 PM
I haven't watched Nate yet but I'm psyched to.

My thought at this point - whay not be extremely happy to have this guy in the backcourt rotation and not turn it into a "replace Marbury" thing? Nate's biggest advantage for us could be off the bench. He might be of a lot less value as a starter. Teams do real well when they have a guy off the bench who brings a lift and spark like him. There tends to be a lot more taking advantage of their unique skills that way, instead of putting them in as starters and exposing their flaws.

Marv--exactly. We shouldn't be looking to replace Marbury, but back him up properly, which it appears we have. Lee has potential but he isn't ready to replace JYD or Rose or Sweetney yet. Channing Frye will get the most chances to play out of anyone because he's tall. That's basketball!

oohah
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
tkf
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7/10/2005  2:13 PM
Posted by oohah:
I haven't watched Nate yet but I'm psyched to.

My thought at this point - whay not be extremely happy to have this guy in the backcourt rotation and not turn it into a "replace Marbury" thing? Nate's biggest advantage for us could be off the bench. He might be of a lot less value as a starter. Teams do real well when they have a guy off the bench who brings a lift and spark like him. There tends to be a lot more taking advantage of their unique skills that way, instead of putting them in as starters and exposing their flaws.

Marv--exactly. We shouldn't be looking to replace Marbury, but back him up properly, which it appears we have. Lee has potential but he isn't ready to replace JYD or Rose or Sweetney yet. Channing Frye will get the most chances to play out of anyone because he's tall. That's basketball!

oohah

Lee should be getting JYd and Rose minutes, he and sweetney should be getting the majority of the minutes at PF with Frye getting the majority of the minutes at center simply because he is our biggest skilled player... what are we going to gain by playing JYD and rose over lee? really? tell me?
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
bobs3304
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7/10/2005  2:23 PM
can't win without veterans. but i agree, we probably should be looking to cut out all the extra fat, marbury included.


question is....will the guy who's responsible for bringing in all these players be willing to trade them?

isiah's a very proud man. and i question his ability to do what's right for the team and for the city, as opposed to what's right for him...
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
Marv
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7/10/2005  2:24 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

can't win without veterans. but i agree, we probably should be looking to cut out all the extra fat, marbury included.


question is....will the guy who's responsible for bringing in all these players be willing to trade them?

isiah's a very proud man. and i question his ability to do what's right for the team and for the city, as opposed to what's right for him...

He didn't hesitate to lose Nazr.

He sure pulled Lenny's cord quickly.

You gotta think he's dying to get the F rid of Gazy and Penniless.
bobs3304
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7/10/2005  2:28 PM
Penny and Timmy aren't even the worst of our problems. They're EXPIRING dog, and IMO, I'd much rather just let their contracts slide off the cap. The PROBLEM, is the glut at guard and at PF, not to mention the hole at Center.

And I was mostly referring to Marbury or Crawford as guys Isiah would almost refuse to deal, even if it was (and it is) best for the team...
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
Marv
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7/10/2005  2:32 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

Penny and Timmy aren't even the worst of our problems. They're EXPIRING dog, and IMO, I'd much rather just let their contracts slide off the cap. The PROBLEM, is the glut at guard and at PF, not to mention the hole at Center.

And I was mostly referring to Marbury or Crawford as guys Isiah would almost refuse to deal, even if it was (and it is) best for the team...

I would never refer to our situation as glut at guard. Last year we were exposed as being threadbare only Marbury and Craw. Now we've added Q, who can also get minutes at the 3, and Nate, who's a rookie, and can probably get some minutes at the 2 as well as the 1. I don't see this as a glut and I think we better hold on to all 4.
bobs3304
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7/10/2005  2:44 PM
and that's your opinion. but we'll see next season. we're like a poor man's version of last year's wizards......a very poor man's version.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
Marv
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7/10/2005  2:51 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

and that's your opinion. but we'll see next season. we're like a poor man's version of last year's wizards......a very poor man's version.

sorry about the caps - screwed up and too lazy to retype

WELL THE WIZARDS THEMSELVES ARE ABOUT TO BE A POOR MAN'S VERSION OF THEMSELVES.

NOTICE I DIDN'T DISAGREE WITH YOU ABOUT CENTER AND PF. WE NEED TO PICK UP A C THROUGH FA/TRADE/SIGN AND TRADE. WE NEED TO SEE WHETHER BUTLERS'S A GENUINE CANDIDATE OR NOT. WE HAVE TIME AND RESOUCES TO BALANCE OUT BETTER.
rvhoss
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7/10/2005  3:05 PM
bobs...you are slowly exposing yourself as a marbs hater...glut at guard? unless your referring to penny and houst you justwant to be rid of marbs...don't try to pass that off as good advice.

having a top notch backup pg (ROOKIE) is a godsend...but last year proved craw isn't ready...give up on the marbs bashing...it's getting old.

Q plays sf opening up minutes for nate and craw. you're the kind of guy that would want billups traded cause they got aroyo.
marbs is battl tested and an all star.
get off his back. how well would marbs do in summer league?

give it up.

[Edited by - rvhoss on 07/10/2005 15:08:02]
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bobs3304
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7/10/2005  3:22 PM
I LOVE Marbury as a player. He's got a bullet-proof vest on. He take his lumps like the best of them. The problem isn't NECESSARILY Marbury, it's what he means to the team. I don't see us becoming championship contenders even with Stromile Swift, who is a longshot to get anyway. I think keeping Marbury is basically saying the orginization is counting on him to lead us (as our best player) to the playoffs and beyond. But I just don't see that heppning w/o an extreme improvement at the 4/5. I'm talking Boozer/Brand/Rasheed type of improvement. Anything else is an addition, but not really an improvement.

Even with Nate, Lee, Frye, and Q, and James or Kwame or whoever we add, this team is .500 AT BEST (and that's with a decent to good coach). I think that's mediocre, and with the payroll where it is, and the expectations that most of us have, I think it's unacceptable. I think Isiah and Co. are in fantasy land if they think either A.) we'll be able to do anything significant next season or the season after (even with Kwame or James) or B.) they'd be poised enough to last through another piss-poor season.


I think not. Changes are due.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
oohah
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7/10/2005  3:31 PM
I well remember JYD in college, he was a good athlete but not the run and jump athlete lee is right now

I disagree. Maybe we saw different games. I myself used to watch every Big East Game I could and I remember him streaking right along Allan Iverson and throwing down monster jams against bruising Big East frontlines. I doubt I can find a video link anymore. so I guess it just one word against another.
I have seen JYD get a few dunks but he and rose are not dunking on guys in traffic,

Then You must have missed the games I pointed out last year: one where JYD caught his own free-throw rebound in traffic and jammed it (Against full fledged NBA comp.) and another where he put it ON TOP OF A CENTER's SKULL. This was in a half court set off a baseline cut, which requires even more explosiveness (And Strength, Lee is still skinny in the chest and arms.) than rising on the break. which JYD can do as well. You also didn't see Malik Rose on Mutombo I guess.
nor are they beating anyone to the basket on their own and finishing,

Have you seen David Lee do this? Do you mean off the dribble or the nice fast break jam he had? If you are saying off a dribble move, pease show me, tell me, when.

I am so tired of all the forwards that are touted to "handle the ball like a guard" Did you know they used to say the same thing about JYD? He was a guard who sprouted late just like David Lee.

I watched David Lee bring the ball up yesterday and he looked like a decent dribbler for a big man. Most importantly he knew when to give the ball up. If I were to go by your assessment of his ball-handling skill I would be thinking Van Horn/Novitzki.
rose does so when there is a big breakdown in the defense and JYD is doing it off feeds.

Big men are supposed to do it off feeds. They don't usually lead the break or the half-court offense. If you think DL's going to be freakin' people off the dribble and slicing them up for layups, you are in for a long wait. And who wants that from Lee anyway? We need players under the basket. We already have our creators. that will not be DL's role, ever.
I think his game is more fundamentally sound than JYD, meaning he is a better passer and handles the ball much better,

That's a big statement for a player who hasn't played an NBA minute yet.
when JYD puts the ball on the floor it usually is not a good thing

Nor will it be when Lee tries dribble outside of transition type situations.
I like JYD and rose, I just think lee may be the better player down the road..

I like JYD and I can't stand Rose. I like Lee and you may well be right about him being a better player down the road. But both JYD and Rose are and have been pretty good NBA players and I think Lee's potential lies in that range. I do hope he is better, like a taller, more of a forward, less of a guard, Dan Majerle, but that is a big dream.

You'll notice that in complimenting Lee, it is not necessary for me to disparage JYD or rose.

Lee should be getting JYD and Rose minutes, he and sweetney should be getting the majority of the minutes at PF with Frye getting the majority of the minutes at center simply because he is our biggest skilled player...

I hope Lee gets better minutes than JYD and Rose minutes, those guy recorded more DNP's than anything last year. We have to cut at least one forward loose probably two. I vote for Mo taylor and Rose to go.

what are we going to gain by playing JYD and rose over lee? really? tell me?

This is a brand new statement out of left field. I responded to your description of Lee as a much better and well-rounded player than proven vets JYD and Rose.

Now I'll respond to this brand new point of yours:
When it comes to winning time, Sweetney, JYD, or Rose will get the call unless Lee is having the game of his young career. I would count on any of those guys at crunch time for defense, boards, steals, etc. than Lee yet. However, I am all for him getting a reasonable amount of minutes. And if he does outperform those guys he should get more time than they. But not until he proves it.

I am glad you are excited about his game as am I.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
rvhoss
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7/10/2005  3:37 PM
i beg to differ. if anybody remembers last year the suns and sonics before the season? And using this previous years bulls as an example (ben gordon), calling for the best players head and using chemistry as an example is short sighted.

Marbs has had a little over one full season and 3 coaches during that span. In that time, we lost 12 games by 6 or fewer points and have been ravaged with injuries (h20 adios, TT and craw missed time).

Now that we finally have a youthful core and players with grit, you think it's his fault?

Come on...how could a 20/8 guy be the reason we sucked last year?

He is the exact person we need to bring us the title.

he did it on the high school level and college level (not sure about GT, but they must have had a good year)...now, on the professional level he's had what, 7 coaches? for pete's sake.

Did ANY of those coaches have success in the NBA? And don't say that guy in minnesota...with the exception of last year, he had the "marbury disease" of not making it out of the first round of the playoffs.

So...now that we have a team, and, while you claim to LOVE the guy, you think it's his fault.

There could be NO OTHER factors? It's just plain old Marbs. I see...you're right...NOT.

Marbs is the man...has always been and will always be. Nobody even cared about us until he got here...Nazr was his center...Kurt was his center.

The only year Iverson had a good year was when he had larry brown...but you never hear philly fans saying trade iverson...what is it with you "fans"...don't you recognize a franchise talent when you see it?

if he was never taken out of context in the "best PG in the league" he would have made the all star game this last year and possibly we would have gotten in the playoffs.

This year will be different...I promise you...H20 was supposed to play last year, he played all of a handful of games...but marbs is why they sucked. TT sucked in the entire first half of the season, but marbs is why we sucked.

Get a grip.

OK..now that I vented, i didn't mean to tread on your first amendment right...I just think this is getting a little unfair.

You wonder why he has that scowl.

BTW...has any team that traded marbury away WON a title?
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rvhoss
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7/10/2005  3:42 PM
oohah...i love you man. but jyd putting the ball on the floor is quite possibly the ugliest thing in the world.

And you know it.

And what open jumper has he hit while on the knicks?

We must have been attending and watching different knick games last year.

Sht...in the games I was watching, they all but left him wide open when he got the ball. It's essentially 5 on 4 with him on the offensive end...now, that sucks when marbs is all we got, but this coming year, that won't be so bad.

I say Lee makes JYD or Rose redundant...whoever makes less money stays.

all kool aid all the time.
Marv
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7/10/2005  3:59 PM
Posted by rvhoss:


And what open jumper has he hit while on the knicks?

No i'll back up oohaha on this one. i remembr specifically in several games being horrified when JYD was about to launch a jumper and then saying, "Holy crap, he hit it!"

(P.S. sorry for screwing up your name oohah but after I saw my mistake I cracked up over it so decided to leave it [;))]
oohah
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7/10/2005  5:03 PM
oohah...i love you man.

Back at you Hoss.
but jyd putting the ball on the floor is quite possibly the ugliest thing in the world.

I never claimed he was a "good dribbler" especially not at the NBA level. I saw him actaully lead fast breaks in college, but that was in college, which ain't the NBA.
And you know it.

I've seen a lot worse from forwards in the NBA.
And what open jumper has he hit while on the knicks?

A few. This is another similarity in JYD and D Lee is that they both play within their limits. To call JYD a shooter would be wrong, but he can keep his man honest out to about 15-17 feet. Lee still has to prove that he can do this and the one shot he took yesterday made JYD's shooting form look like Mark Price's.
No i'll back up oohaha on this one. i remembr specifically in several games being horrified when JYD was about to launch a jumper and then saying, "Holy crap, he hit it!"

Thanks Marv!
We must have been attending and watching different knick games last year.

If you attended a game that JYD played in the you were lucky or you attended many more than I did because he barely played last season. I base my opinions mostly on his career in Toronto and Chicago. I think this is more of a case of a player's rep overshadowing reality. Because he's the "Junkyard Dog" and a "scrapper" he automatically is not a skilled player. In truth, JYD is not a "skill player" but he is far from unskilled.
Sht...in the games I was watching, they all but left him wide open when he got the ball. It's essentially 5 on 4 with him on the offensive end...now, that sucks when marbs is all we got, but this coming year, that won't be so bad.

That's just not accurate...JYD knows his role and embraces it with vigor, that is why the fans love him so much whereever he goes. He doesn't care about shots, but he wants all the scraps. Also you don't ever need 5 offensive players on the court at one time--that's never a champion. (See Dallas and Phoenix '05) When he was left wide open it is a defensive strategy against a superior offensive player like Marbury.

The only proven offense I see added so far this offseason is Q. Nate Robinson is a potential offensive dynamo, but he has to do it against the real deal before I can see him as steady relief for our offense. Most likely he will have to pick his spots to shine like all the other little guys in history
(P.S. sorry for screwing up your name oohah but after I saw my mistake I cracked up over it so decided to leave it

At least it wasn't ooh-lala

oohah


[Edited by - oohah on 07/10/2005 17:07:34]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
What about tonight's game.... (vs WASH)

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