BigDaddyG wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

foosballnick wrote:So the media now has the DM price at RJ, Obi (or Grimes /IQ) and 5 first rounders (3 unprotected)? Ainge must really be working his media back-channels.

Can't wait for the season the start.

This. Time to play some poker.

Knicks need to stick to Obi, EF, 3 first (2 unprotected) 3 seconds. Have McBride and Roka as fillers if need be. If not. Fuck em.

I've folded and am waiting for the next hand. I don't think Mitchell makes us as much better as this requires. The time to move for him was before signing Brunson. I don't believe they co-exist based on a deeper dive into their stats. You end up with a fraction of the total ability of both. I actually am happy to take another year of the existing contracts, see if the 2022 regression was real or contrived and re-evaluate Barrett, Fournier, Randle and the 2023 draft.

Reasons for my change of mind

1) A look at Brunson and Mitchell's shot charts makes them appear to be very similar shot usage and efficiency. Given the size constraints on both, Mitchell's wingspan would have been preferable to Brunson, but Brunson only cost cap space to obtain. I don't think a lineup will be effective, I think Brunson needs a strong, sizable SG next to him to cover matchups. Barrett would work here, but he appears to be moving to SF sized bulk.

2) I think the Knicks need to consolidate some players into talent. I think the easiest way to do that is to wait until the 2023 draft and use their excess draft capital to ensure they get the players they want. The depth of the 2023 draft is such that I think they can add the SG of their dreams on a rookie scale. I don't think there is a single player they can bring in to close the gap between the Knicks and the top 10 teams in the league.

3) I want to see Brunson and Toppin on the same court. My emotional response is that Brunson can make Toppin look like a slightly smaller Amare.

4) The guard situation needs to be resolved. Brunson, Rose, McBride, Fournier, IQ, Grimes, (Barrett) is leaving talent on the Bench. Rose is borderline untouchable. I only let him move if he asks for it. Other than that I am more hopeful of upside than sure. If there was a three for 1 that made sense, like Fournier, IQ and McBride for Mikal Bridges, that is the kind of deal I would be looking for. Suns get a bit of depth, where we consolidate. Suns don't make that deal straight up, but its the kind of trade I would be looking for.

Would agree. Also makes me wonder if an Ivey deal should have been pursued more. JB does seem redundant. Although he did have success with yet another high usage player in Luka.

I know you are big on Obi but Amare was nothing like Obi. I see Obi more like a Kenny Sky Walker.
Amare was automatic from 15 and was so much more advanced in things like post moves and PnR.
I see Obi as a perfect second unit player. Instant energy. Especially on a running unit.
But agree we should wait and see how some of these questions develop.

In terms of guards. I have less faith that Rose can come back as strong as he finished the
previous season. Think EF is always going to be shopped and eventually will get a taker but closer to trade deadline. Grimes, MR and IQ seem to be long term staples. RJ is good but hard to argue he deserves a rookie max without being an All Star. Especially since his shooting and FT % are so low.

Once again, all these questions seem to make sense that we wait until trade deadline. If RJ, EF, Randle, Rose, Obi and Cam do not progressed or have made an impact on winning, the natural course would be to trade them for assets and retool towards something that can compete for a chip.

I'm not sure Ivey was ever realistic. Detroit had no real intention of trading him unless the Knicks offered a super package out of desperation. I agree the Knicks need to consolidate their talent. Not sure they'll have any more success moving up in 2023 than they've had any other year. But now, even Mitchell in the equation, they have a guard glut in the roster. I'd like to see an influx of combo forwards on the roster if possible.

Cam does fill that need but as said, he has yet to establish/salary. Grimes also but he gets two more years! Based on present needs if DM is traded for IQ or Drose needs to go.
Rudy Gay seems to be part of some packages.

I can't properly value RJ but he is easy worth two of the protecteds in my narrow view. We can argue all his labels but he avged like 24 pts in the last 12 weeks of the season. He is often over looked by his peer groups.

If no DM trade, and team is .500 and progressing I doubt EF gets off loaded unless an offer we can't refuse and GrimeTime is for real.

HofstraBBall wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

foosballnick wrote:So the media now has the DM price at RJ, Obi (or Grimes /IQ) and 5 first rounders (3 unprotected)? Ainge must really be working his media back-channels.

Can't wait for the season the start.

This. Time to play some poker.

Knicks need to stick to Obi, EF, 3 first (2 unprotected) 3 seconds. Have McBride and Roka as fillers if need be. If not. Fuck em.

I've folded and am waiting for the next hand. I don't think Mitchell makes us as much better as this requires. The time to move for him was before signing Brunson. I don't believe they co-exist based on a deeper dive into their stats. You end up with a fraction of the total ability of both. I actually am happy to take another year of the existing contracts, see if the 2022 regression was real or contrived and re-evaluate Barrett, Fournier, Randle and the 2023 draft.

Reasons for my change of mind

1) A look at Brunson and Mitchell's shot charts makes them appear to be very similar shot usage and efficiency. Given the size constraints on both, Mitchell's wingspan would have been preferable to Brunson, but Brunson only cost cap space to obtain. I don't think a lineup will be effective, I think Brunson needs a strong, sizable SG next to him to cover matchups. Barrett would work here, but he appears to be moving to SF sized bulk.

2) I think the Knicks need to consolidate some players into talent. I think the easiest way to do that is to wait until the 2023 draft and use their excess draft capital to ensure they get the players they want. The depth of the 2023 draft is such that I think they can add the SG of their dreams on a rookie scale. I don't think there is a single player they can bring in to close the gap between the Knicks and the top 10 teams in the league.

3) I want to see Brunson and Toppin on the same court. My emotional response is that Brunson can make Toppin look like a slightly smaller Amare.

4) The guard situation needs to be resolved. Brunson, Rose, McBride, Fournier, IQ, Grimes, (Barrett) is leaving talent on the Bench. Rose is borderline untouchable. I only let him move if he asks for it. Other than that I am more hopeful of upside than sure. If there was a three for 1 that made sense, like Fournier, IQ and McBride for Mikal Bridges, that is the kind of deal I would be looking for. Suns get a bit of depth, where we consolidate. Suns don't make that deal straight up, but its the kind of trade I would be looking for.

Would agree. Also makes me wonder if an Ivey deal should have been pursued more. JB does seem redundant. Although he did have success with yet another high usage player in Luka.

I know you are big on Obi but Amare was nothing like Obi. I see Obi more like a Kenny Sky Walker.
Amare was automatic from 15 and was so much more advanced in things like post moves and PnR.
I see Obi as a perfect second unit player. Instant energy. Especially on a running unit.
But agree we should wait and see how some of these questions develop.

In terms of guards. I have less faith that Rose can come back as strong as he finished the
previous season. Think EF is always going to be shopped and eventually will get a taker but closer to trade deadline. Grimes, MR and IQ seem to be long term staples. RJ is good but hard to argue he deserves a rookie max without being an All Star. Especially since his shooting and FT % are so low.

Once again, all these questions seem to make sense that we wait until trade deadline. If RJ, EF, Randle, Rose, Obi and Cam do not progress or have made little impact on winning, the natural course would be to trade them for assets and retool towards something that can. The draft may be the best along with some upcoming FAs

We agree. Deadline it is!

Regarding my Amare/Toppin fantasy, in fairness, Amare wasn't the Amare we remember until he got Nash. I don't think Toppin has the same bestial strength that Amare had - that elite athleticism is not there. But I do think he is the kind of player that gets unlocked by a bona fide PG. I'd hate to see him in Memphis with Ja. Maybe Shawn Marion is a better comparison.

The wait and see is more the point with Obi. Toppin's shot chart will help Brunson more than most on this team other than Grimes. His Top Left Key 3pt and Right Corner 3pt shooting percentages are pretty good together with a high percentage at the cylinder. If Toppin moves without the ball between the top left of the key, the rim and the right corner, he will create a lot of space for Brunson and will have a lot of "oop" opportunities at the end of the clock.

I'm also not buying Ainge leaking that he likes offers from other teams cause if that were true, why hasn't he pulled the trigger or leaked the offer?

Personally, I'd walk away. The more I think about it, the more I sour on the idea of adding Spider to this team for such an expensive offer. I don't think he's the type of player that takes a team to that next level. I don't feel comfortable sending multiple unprotected picks for a guy who is not at the level of Giannis, Luka, Embiid, ect. I honestly think it's better to hold onto our picks and wait to see who the next star becomes available and chances are their GM won't be as annoying as Ainge.

If the trade doesnt happen. Brunson, Hart, gives the team an even bigger boost than expected, among other players. Fournier is putting up numbers like he did with the Magic. Now that (for now) he's been with a team for more than a season. We look like a playoff sleeper.

I can see a star(s) adding the Knicks to their list of teams they would like to be traded to. Maybe a star who is a better fit.

ekstarks94 wrote:

SergioNYK wrote:I'm not buying Ainge being interested in RJ at all. It just doesn't make any sense to me that a team looking to rebuild would trade for a player who will likely want a MAX. Plus I think their goal is to be as bad as possible for Wanbamyama, which makes a ton of sense.

I'm also not buying Ainge leaking that he likes offers from other teams cause if that were true, why hasn't he pulled the trigger or leaked the offer?

Personally, I'd walk away. The more I think about it, the more I sour on the idea of adding Spider to this team for such an expensive offer. I don't think he's the type of player that takes a team to that next level. I don't feel comfortable sending multiple unprotected picks for a guy who is not at the level of Giannis, Luka, Embiid, ect. I honestly think it's better to hold onto our picks and wait to see who the next star becomes available and chances are their GM won't be as annoying as Ainge.

Question: Who was the last major star that fit our particular window that forced a trade? Not saying we need to do this, but these types of deals that fit hand and glove do not come along too often. Not looking to get robbed by Ainge. Yes the opportunity cost may be lower in the alternative bin, but with the lower costs what else do you get(or not get). If you think of all the ptoential guys that can get moved say 2 yrs ago, none of them are on the table now with the exception of Mitchell...who Rose & co have been gearing themselves up for this deal. The good thing is that Rose is not Mills and jumping at the opportunity to pay primo prices...Ainge is using a lot of tactics to push..but proof is in the actions...if there were a better deal he would of taken it..

The last major star that forced a trade here was Carmelo. Personally, I thought it was the right move and we had 3 winning seasons plus a playoff run in 2013. The window closed because Carmelo’s supporting cast here was very old. The 2013 team that won 54 games was the NBA’s oldest roster by far

We have a much younger roster than we did when the Carmelo trade happened in 2010. You bring Mitchell here we have a window of possibly competing for a title or at least deep playoff runs next 5-6 years. I’ll take that.

Jimbo5 wrote:The news about Thibs and some Knicks decision makers are ok to trade RJ and keep Grimes is very interesting. Do they think Grimes can be special? Is it to much to ask for the knicks fans and the front office to extend their patience? Its a universal thought that trading for Mitchell wont bring the knicks closer to being contenders rather alot of people think it will just be a 10 game win jump. Can we just let the Cavs pay for Mitchell in a trade and maybe, just maybe when he hits free agency he can join the knicks. In the meantime try to continue to develop RJ, Grimes, IQ and Obi. Maybe we can have our own version of homegrown stars -to-be like Boston's Tatum and Brown. I think RJ can be one and maybe Grimes but both IQ and Obi also has potential.

Thibs the coach and Thibs the talent evaluator/front office decision maker are two different beasts, as witnessed during his stint in Minnesota. Thankfully, he's not making player/personnel decisions.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1562641949806325760

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https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1562660584050798598

Odd trade by itself for the Jazz if there are no picks, so could be part of a sequence. Pat Bev did tweet that prayer emoji when the Lakers/Clips game date was leaked just before the schedule was released.

Means likely a Russ trade is set up and eminent (no way they add Pat-Bev to the team before they know for sure they can get rid of Russ, he absolutely hates him and has never forgiven him for tearing his meniscus with a dirty play😂).

Likely either Russ and two picks for Turner and Field (Pacers), or maybe another trade with the jazz once the wolves players can be combined (early September)- maybe Russ and the two Lakers picks for Bogdanovic, Beasley and Clarkson.

Another suspicious indicator that the D-Mitch trade might be pretty much done.

EwingsGlass wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

foosballnick wrote:So the media now has the DM price at RJ, Obi (or Grimes /IQ) and 5 first rounders (3 unprotected)? Ainge must really be working his media back-channels.

Can't wait for the season the start.

This. Time to play some poker.

Knicks need to stick to Obi, EF, 3 first (2 unprotected) 3 seconds. Have McBride and Roka as fillers if need be. If not. Fuck em.

I've folded and am waiting for the next hand. I don't think Mitchell makes us as much better as this requires. The time to move for him was before signing Brunson. I don't believe they co-exist based on a deeper dive into their stats. You end up with a fraction of the total ability of both. I actually am happy to take another year of the existing contracts, see if the 2022 regression was real or contrived and re-evaluate Barrett, Fournier, Randle and the 2023 draft.

Reasons for my change of mind

1) A look at Brunson and Mitchell's shot charts makes them appear to be very similar shot usage and efficiency. Given the size constraints on both, Mitchell's wingspan would have been preferable to Brunson, but Brunson only cost cap space to obtain. I don't think a lineup will be effective, I think Brunson needs a strong, sizable SG next to him to cover matchups. Barrett would work here, but he appears to be moving to SF sized bulk.

2) I think the Knicks need to consolidate some players into talent. I think the easiest way to do that is to wait until the 2023 draft and use their excess draft capital to ensure they get the players they want. The depth of the 2023 draft is such that I think they can add the SG of their dreams on a rookie scale. I don't think there is a single player they can bring in to close the gap between the Knicks and the top 10 teams in the league.

3) I want to see Brunson and Toppin on the same court. My emotional response is that Brunson can make Toppin look like a slightly smaller Amare.

4) The guard situation needs to be resolved. Brunson, Rose, McBride, Fournier, IQ, Grimes, (Barrett) is leaving talent on the Bench. Rose is borderline untouchable. I only let him move if he asks for it. Other than that I am more hopeful of upside than sure. If there was a three for 1 that made sense, like Fournier, IQ and McBride for Mikal Bridges, that is the kind of deal I would be looking for. Suns get a bit of depth, where we consolidate. Suns don't make that deal straight up, but its the kind of trade I would be looking for.

Would agree. Also makes me wonder if an Ivey deal should have been pursued more. JB does seem redundant. Although he did have success with yet another high usage player in Luka.

I know you are big on Obi but Amare was nothing like Obi. I see Obi more like a Kenny Sky Walker.
Amare was automatic from 15 and was so much more advanced in things like post moves and PnR.
I see Obi as a perfect second unit player. Instant energy. Especially on a running unit.
But agree we should wait and see how some of these questions develop.

In terms of guards. I have less faith that Rose can come back as strong as he finished the
previous season. Think EF is always going to be shopped and eventually will get a taker but closer to trade deadline. Grimes, MR and IQ seem to be long term staples. RJ is good but hard to argue he deserves a rookie max without being an All Star. Especially since his shooting and FT % are so low.

Once again, all these questions seem to make sense that we wait until trade deadline. If RJ, EF, Randle, Rose, Obi and Cam do not progress or have made little impact on winning, the natural course would be to trade them for assets and retool towards something that can. The draft may be the best along with some upcoming FAs

We agree. Deadline it is!

Regarding my Amare/Toppin fantasy, in fairness, Amare wasn't the Amare we remember until he got Nash. I don't think Toppin has the same bestial strength that Amare had - that elite athleticism is not there. But I do think he is the kind of player that gets unlocked by a bona fide PG. I'd hate to see him in Memphis with Ja. Maybe Shawn Marion is a better comparison.

The wait and see is more the point with Obi. Toppin's shot chart will help Brunson more than most on this team other than Grimes. His Top Left Key 3pt and Right Corner 3pt shooting percentages are pretty good together with a high percentage at the cylinder. If Toppin moves without the ball between the top left of the key, the rim and the right corner, he will create a lot of space for Brunson and will have a lot of "oop" opportunities at the end of the clock.

One thing to keep in mind is that Rose knows it will take more than what we have and just DM. My gut feeling is that the reason it has taken so long is that they are looking for a third team. Maybe even a 4th. Seems like the only way the Knicks will get the additional/right pieces and for Utah to get their picks. The FO is smarter then the media and us. Confident that, unlike previous era's, they will make this team better. If not..... they are dead to me. Lol

But is it really that transparent when we transpose Thibs past then try to label where the RJ stuff is coming from?
Lets be real, and I am a RJ fan: RJ is a tweener for the moment. He is not automatically getting extended. 24pts inefficient from Jan 1st was knicks letting him develop. To tighten that up and get it to 26pts would be the goal. Then he is “the man”.
But he is not there yet. RJ, like the other yoots are our draftees and they are Knicks. We get irrational devotion to “our guys”.
its not what RJ is, its at just turned 22 this summer what he can be STILL. There are stats that say he is on track to be a Jayllen Brown/Derozen type career. To be fair, when did Jimmy Butler really make a name for himself? I’d guess it was about age 25. For all we know Thibs might be very strongly advocating for his inclusion at the 3 and feels Grimes can start at the two.
Question we don’t know is what does Thibs think of DM?
Leon/Perry/Brock have a tough decision to make. Right now Danny holds all the cards. He knows this is where DM wants to be and knicks want him. How does DM change the convo? When does he change it? Can he come out and say “I did not ask for a trade, but naturally if I had my choice I want to play at home, that does not mean I am not happy here! But if I am traded I intend to honor my contract but also at some time exercise my right to choose where I play and thus extending might not be automatic depending on where I play”. That makes Wiz or Miami sweat a bit perhaps? If their offers are a bit lower then that benefits us?

I’m guessing at scenarios.

Also, does Conley, Gay or Bogdnovich have any bearing on any of this?

With Durant making peace and off the trade block for now does this accelerate things? PHX has to do something to improve.

Nalod wrote:Thibs under owner Glen Taylor does not really give a fair depiction as to how good an exec he could have been. That owner just ****ed that team up over a long stretch. What did Thibs in was Jimmy Butler going nuclear on the then immature KAT. He paid retail for Jimmy then when it was apparent he’d not resign he lost value. Jimmy then bolted Philly as well for miami.
Not sure were ALL the blame goes.

But is it really that transparent when we transpose Thibs past then try to label where the RJ stuff is coming from?
Lets be real, and I am a RJ fan: RJ is a tweener for the moment. He is not automatically getting extended. 24pts inefficient from Jan 1st was knicks letting him develop. To tighten that up and get it to 26pts would be the goal. Then he is “the man”.
But he is not there yet. RJ, like the other yoots are our draftees and they are Knicks. We get irrational devotion to “our guys”.
its not what RJ is, its at just turned 22 this summer what he can be STILL. There are stats that say he is on track to be a Jayllen Brown/Derozen type career. To be fair, when did Jimmy Butler really make a name for himself? I’d guess it was about age 25. For all we know Thibs might be very strongly advocating for his inclusion at the 3 and feels Grimes can start at the two.
Question we don’t know is what does Thibs think of DM?
Leon/Perry/Brock have a tough decision to make. Right now Danny holds all the cards. He knows this is where DM wants to be and knicks want him. How does DM change the convo? When does he change it? Can he come out and say “I did not ask for a trade, but naturally if I had my choice I want to play at home, that does not mean I am not happy here! But if I am traded I intend to honor my contract but also at some time exercise my right to choose where I play and thus extending might not be automatic depending on where I play”. That makes Wiz or Miami sweat a bit perhaps? If their offers are a bit lower then that benefits us?

I’m guessing at scenarios.

Also, does Conley, Gay or Bogdnovich have any bearing on any of this?

With Durant making peace and off the trade block for now does this accelerate things? PHX has to do something to improve.

If you could make your best 10 man rotation today (ignoring the future) and combining whichever players from Utah and NYK, what would it be?

Nalod wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Nalod wrote:Thibs under owner Glen Taylor does not really give a fair depiction as to how good an exec he could have been. That owner just ****ed that team up over a long stretch. What did Thibs in was Jimmy Butler going nuclear on the then immature KAT. He paid retail for Jimmy then when it was apparent he’d not resign he lost value. Jimmy then bolted Philly as well for miami.
Not sure were ALL the blame goes.

But is it really that transparent when we transpose Thibs past then try to label where the RJ stuff is coming from?
Lets be real, and I am a RJ fan: RJ is a tweener for the moment. He is not automatically getting extended. 24pts inefficient from Jan 1st was knicks letting him develop. To tighten that up and get it to 26pts would be the goal. Then he is “the man”.
But he is not there yet. RJ, like the other yoots are our draftees and they are Knicks. We get irrational devotion to “our guys”.
its not what RJ is, its at just turned 22 this summer what he can be STILL. There are stats that say he is on track to be a Jayllen Brown/Derozen type career. To be fair, when did Jimmy Butler really make a name for himself? I’d guess it was about age 25. For all we know Thibs might be very strongly advocating for his inclusion at the 3 and feels Grimes can start at the two.
Question we don’t know is what does Thibs think of DM?
Leon/Perry/Brock have a tough decision to make. Right now Danny holds all the cards. He knows this is where DM wants to be and knicks want him. How does DM change the convo? When does he change it? Can he come out and say “I did not ask for a trade, but naturally if I had my choice I want to play at home, that does not mean I am not happy here! But if I am traded I intend to honor my contract but also at some time exercise my right to choose where I play and thus extending might not be automatic depending on where I play”. That makes Wiz or Miami sweat a bit perhaps? If their offers are a bit lower then that benefits us?

I’m guessing at scenarios.

Also, does Conley, Gay or Bogdnovich have any bearing on any of this?

With Durant making peace and off the trade block for now does this accelerate things? PHX has to do something to improve.

If you could make your best 10 man rotation today (ignoring the future) and combining whichever players from Utah and NYK, what would it be?

Rooted in some form of reality.........

DM
Bruns
RJ
Randle
Mitch

Drose
Grimes
Obi
Cam
iHart

EF and IQ to utah, 5 picks out, 2 of them knicks unprotected. My sweetner is Rokas/Deuce and 2nd.

What don't I know? Where Aller/Perry "apparent value" is and how they view whats a fair deal for both teams. ALso how do they factor competing bids?
My take is there is so much we don't know its impossible to react with any accuracy.

I was hoping Randle/Mitch to PHX that would net us Ayton as part of a bigger deal would emerge. How PHX gets Randle and what we get in return is above my pay grade.

I posted this on a previous page within this thread.

Based on the math I explained above. If those 4 all get Randle type mins (~35mins per) then IQ gets ~15

RJ 33 Grimes 15 = 48
Randle 34 Sims 14 = 48
Brunson 35 Rose 13 = 48
D.Mitch 35 IQ 13 = 48
M.Rob 25 Hart 23 = 48

Perfect 10 man rotation for Thibs. So the rotation problem is fixed. Grimes, IQ and others get the usual backup mins. Rose not playing every game. Same with Mitch. But lets say everybody stays healthy, plenty of mins to go around in a 10 man rotation. IQ will get similar minutes from his past seasons with the knicks. Basically as far as mins wise, nothing really changes much. IQ and Grimes are backups, just like last year.

I finally did a little work (Nolad should appreciate that) and showed how the minute distribution would look like, with this 10 man rotation. Eventhough I think we are overpaying for D.Mitch, it helps to clear up our rotation glut. But until Ainge agrees with this trade, it's not happening. I believe player wise, we are set on the trade. It comes down to how many unprotected picks we give up. So this could be the roster once the smoke is clear.