nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

toad wrote:You're completely ignoring that last season's success was due to a very quick start fueled by vets who have a pedigree--Kidd and Wallace. Without their leadership and focus right out of the gate, we don't have that many wins in the regular season. To think that can be replaced by Bargnani, Udrih, THJ is laughable. I think people who think we're a better team this season is in for a rude awakening. Unless Amar'e's knees miraculously hold up and he gives us moments of brilliance, we're not winning 54 games and I don't see this group getting any further in the playoffs.

Bingo, and i was just about to ask that....

Who is the leader on this team?

Where is the veteran presence gonna come from?

When shyt hits the fans which it will because ALL teams have it, who is that one guy to step up and steer the ship?

Who on this team will inspire the Knicks facing a losing streak and comes out with a broke foot and competes.....twice?

Sheed and Kurt did that.

They gonna miss those old dudes on the sidelines...they helped steer ths ship.

This current team has alot of talent in it...Isiah's Knicks did as well.

Not saying the result will be the same...but wont be better than last year.

After those old guys were all gone and broke down, Prigs stepped in and proved that he could have the same kind of positive impact that Kidd did in the win streak to start the year. When Prigs stepped into the SL the team went on a strong win streak. Give me a break with the old guys talk.

AB even in his WORST season was still able to score 13ppg which is better than what we got from Sheed. Sheed was 7/4 and at his worst with an injured elbow AB was about 13/4. We will have Woody coaching AB up and I think he's gonna get more out of AB.

Sheed and KT are being replaced with younger and more talented players. AB and MWP in particular. Also we didn't have KMart at the start but we will this year.

Beno will be able to give us even more than Kidd did. Beno is able to do more than Kidd could as a PG.

I'd go out on a limb and say that THJ will be better than White or Brewer last year.

I'd go out on a limb and say that Tyler has a chance to give us more than Camby ever did last year!!!

It isnt about the talent, they have that....they dont have winning components.

Funny you mention Pablo, who do you think helped him along the way...Jason Kidd.

Pablo had to learn the NBA and it literally took him the whole year, but he was tutored quite well and in that time the team won alot of games WITHOUT him.

Kidd became useless on the court when he couldnt hit a shot....remember when Pablo refused to take them?

One helped the other, and I like Pablo, but enough with that.

The team wont reflect a better season, I guarantee that.

Q. knickscity - (slightly agitated) who is the leader on this team?

A. On the court, heart and soul is Ray Felton. The de-facto captain with a championship ring is Tyson Chandler. The scoring leader is Carmelo Anthony. The defensive leader is I Man Shumpert. The leader of team huddles away from the coaches is Ron Artest. The leader of game tempo

Q. knickscity. (Biting nails) - where is the veteran presence gonna come from?

A. Any one of the starters, who are all veterans

Q. knickscity - (standing on the edge of a ledge, 32 stories up) when shyt hits the fan, who is that one guy who will step up and steer the ship?

A. Same man who stepped up and steered (and righted)!the sinking ship after the disastrous west coast swing at the end of the season, mister 54 wins himself, Head Coach, Mike Woodson.

No fear.

misterearl wrote:dk7th calls bs on the answer man

Q. knickscity - who is the leader on this team?

A. On the court, heart and soul is Ray Felton. The de-facto captain with a championship ring is Tyson Chandler. The scoring leader is Carmelo Anthony. The defensive leader is I Man Shumpert. The leader of team huddles away from the coaches is Ron Artest. The leader of game tempo

Q. knickscity - where is the veteran presence gonna come from?

A. Any one of the starters, who are all veterans

Q. knickscity - when shyt hits the fan, who is that one guy who will step up and steer the ship?

A. Same man who stepped up and steered (and righted)!the sinking ship after the disastrous west coast swing at the end of the season, mister 54 wins himself, Head Coach, Mike Woodson.

No fear.

The heart of the team is Melo, it comes and goes squarely on his shoulders, but I specifically asked leader....

You can look at any other playoff team and immediately identify theirs.

The starters arent even identified, and when i ask for vet presence I'm not talking just in years of service.

The ship was falling apart in Woodsons hands, he had no answer during that WC trip...but Kurt Thomas did which Woodson was trying to take him OUT OF THE GAME.

So I'll ask again those same questions....

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

IronWillGiroud wrote:

nixluva wrote:Yeah we're the crazy ones who are simply recognizing that we have a F'n Playoff team that went to the 2nd round and actually IMPROVED the freakin roster this summer. Sure we're off base! Man you guys are so full of crap!!! You can't justify your stance when faced with the facts. This team is not some losing team anymore. It was the #2 seed in the East and they EARNED that spot with hard work, despite losing players to injury or age. How you can expect us to accept your pessimistic drivel is beyond me. You guys don't have a freakin leg to stand on. The most you can say is that MAYBE the additions to the roster don't help as much as expected but since we're returning practically all of the important players from last year then at the least this team is no worse than the team that earned the #2 seed. You guys are unfreakinbelievable!

you don't get it,

we lost kidd and novak, and bargnani is a negative sum player,

we're actually worse than last year,

you are lucky with 46 wins this year. book it

We also added Artest and Udrih, not just Bargs. Kmart also only played 18 games for us last season and made a huge impact and he was resigned. Us winning less then 54 games wouldn't be because we have a worse roster because we don't. It would be because the teams around us improved a lot.

and when you don't improve at that same rate, guess what?

hahaha. It's like claiming to be a great financial investor but being unable to even keep up with inflation

exactly..lol

There is a difference between claiming the Knicks got worse personnel wise and will win less games because they became a worse team then last yr due to the players lost and players gained. And claiming that the east will be more competitive this yr due to the improvement of multiple teams that are getting there injured players back or made moves to improve there roster which will make this season a lot tougher to repeat the success we had last regular season.

At the same time if games were won on paper then there would be no need to play them. Teams improvement at this point is all speculation and assumptions. If I told you last offseason that the Knicks would have defeated Miami 3 out 4 times, went 2-0 vs Spurs, 3-1 vs Boston, 3-1 vs Philly and would split series with Lakers, OKC, Nets, Pacers on top of that to win 54 games. I would have been laughed at. Last offseason everyone was ready to hand the Lakers the title and Philly was in line to become a power house. Its also not like these teams are so superior to our team that we are going to get destroyed every single time we play them. Teams improved and some may have a edge over us, but we are still capable of competing with any of them.

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:Look man, we're on different spectrums...this team imo is worse...it's fragile and has no leadership, and neither last years team nor this years team will be built on defense...which all solid playoff teams are.

You believe that the talent will outweigh those things.....and i doubt that.

It is what it is, the playoff games will decide it all.

You say the team is worse than last year because it's fragile and has no leadership but last years team was FAR MORE FRAGILE and we saw that with the way we lost so many players to injury last year. We got more talented, younger and stronger compared to last years team. In what way are we a lesser team? Sheed we got off the couch. Kidd and KT were rusting apart and Camby could never get on the court. Brewer couldn't last and White was pure garbage.

It's not easy to just "build a team on defense". The Knicks have to deal with the players they can get. They have Tyson and Shump as the teams best defenders and have added KMart and MWP to that mix. The rest is on Woody to coach up the team so that they give max effort on D. From my view of what they've done, i'd say they did look to make sure we have some defensive players on this squad.

We also needed more scoring talent to help make up for not being a great defensive team. We just watched this team go thru the playoffs not being able to score effectively. I believe Grunwald addressed both scoring and defense this summer and he's still got a roster spot left to do more.

I wont bother to adress the rest let the games decide that, since all we have now if different OPINIONS.

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

toad wrote:You're completely ignoring that last season's success was due to a very quick start fueled by vets who have a pedigree--Kidd and Wallace. Without their leadership and focus right out of the gate, we don't have that many wins in the regular season. To think that can be replaced by Bargnani, Udrih, THJ is laughable. I think people who think we're a better team this season is in for a rude awakening. Unless Amar'e's knees miraculously hold up and he gives us moments of brilliance, we're not winning 54 games and I don't see this group getting any further in the playoffs.

Bingo, and i was just about to ask that....

Who is the leader on this team?

Where is the veteran presence gonna come from?

When shyt hits the fans which it will because ALL teams have it, who is that one guy to step up and steer the ship?

Who on this team will inspire the Knicks facing a losing streak and comes out with a broke foot and competes.....twice?

Sheed and Kurt did that.

They gonna miss those old dudes on the sidelines...they helped steer ths ship.

This current team has alot of talent in it...Isiah's Knicks did as well.

Not saying the result will be the same...but wont be better than last year.

After those old guys were all gone and broke down, Prigs stepped in and proved that he could have the same kind of positive impact that Kidd did in the win streak to start the year. When Prigs stepped into the SL the team went on a strong win streak. Give me a break with the old guys talk.

AB even in his WORST season was still able to score 13ppg which is better than what we got from Sheed. Sheed was 7/4 and at his worst with an injured elbow AB was about 13/4. We will have Woody coaching AB up and I think he's gonna get more out of AB.

Sheed and KT are being replaced with younger and more talented players. AB and MWP in particular. Also we didn't have KMart at the start but we will this year.

Beno will be able to give us even more than Kidd did. Beno is able to do more than Kidd could as a PG.

I'd go out on a limb and say that THJ will be better than White or Brewer last year.

I'd go out on a limb and say that Tyler has a chance to give us more than Camby ever did last year!!!

I dont need to go out on a limb, i know this team wont win 54 games and wont get past the second round, they might get knocked out in the first.

It isnt about the talent, they have that....they dont have winning components.

Funny you mention Pablo, who do you think helped him along the way...Jason Kidd.

Pablo had to learn the NBA and it literally took him the whole year, but he was tutored quite well and in that time the team won alot of games WITHOUT him.

Kidd became useless on the court when he couldnt hit a shot....remember when Pablo refused to take them?

One helped the other, and I like Pablo, but enough with that.

The team wont reflect a better season, I guarantee that.

Kidd was a good coach on the floor, but Pablo came in knowing how to play BB. He mainly just needed time to get used to the NBA game. It's overstating it to assume that Pablo's success was due to Kidd helping him. He wasn't some kid that didn't understand how to play. Take it easy with that crap.

On that same note, now we have more talent at PG and SG than we did last year. Shump is going to start the year stronger than last year. We also added THJ in place of Brewer and White who couldn't really get it done.
Beno will add another dimension to the game for us, since really all Kidd did was stand out at the 3pt line. Kidd couldn't drive and wasn't a good mid range shooter. Beno can do those things and is a good passer as well. Kidd just physically couldn't do it anymore. Beno is better than a broke down Kidd.

It's just not as simple as you want to make it seem that this roster is worse now than last year. Of course it's possible, but I don't think its probable that this team won't be better than last years team. We have most of the core players coming back and replaced the guys we lost with better and younger options.

newyorknewyork wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

IronWillGiroud wrote:

nixluva wrote:Yeah we're the crazy ones who are simply recognizing that we have a F'n Playoff team that went to the 2nd round and actually IMPROVED the freakin roster this summer. Sure we're off base! Man you guys are so full of crap!!! You can't justify your stance when faced with the facts. This team is not some losing team anymore. It was the #2 seed in the East and they EARNED that spot with hard work, despite losing players to injury or age. How you can expect us to accept your pessimistic drivel is beyond me. You guys don't have a freakin leg to stand on. The most you can say is that MAYBE the additions to the roster don't help as much as expected but since we're returning practically all of the important players from last year then at the least this team is no worse than the team that earned the #2 seed. You guys are unfreakinbelievable!

you don't get it,

we lost kidd and novak, and bargnani is a negative sum player,

we're actually worse than last year,

you are lucky with 46 wins this year. book it

We also added Artest and Udrih, not just Bargs. Kmart also only played 18 games for us last season and made a huge impact and he was resigned. Us winning less then 54 games wouldn't be because we have a worse roster because we don't. It would be because the teams around us improved a lot.

and when you don't improve at that same rate, guess what?

hahaha. It's like claiming to be a great financial investor but being unable to even keep up with inflation

exactly..lol

There is a difference between claiming the Knicks got worse personnel wise and will win less games because they became a worse team then last yr due to the players lost and players gained. And claiming that the east will be more competitive this yr due to the improvement of multiple teams that are getting there injured players back or made moves to improve there roster which will make this season a lot tougher to repeat the success we had last regular season.

At the same time if games were won on paper then there would be no need to play them. Teams improvement at this point is all speculation and assumptions. If I told you last offseason that the Knicks would have defeated Miami 3 out 4 times, went 2-0 vs Spurs, 3-1 vs Boston, 3-1 vs Philly and would split series with Lakers, OKC, Nets, Pacers on top of that to win 54 games. I would have been laughed at. Last offseason everyone was ready to hand the Lakers the title and Philly was in line to become a power house. Its also not like these teams are so superior to our team that we are going to get destroyed every single time we play them. Teams improved and some may have a edge over us, but we are still capable of competing with any of them.

No you wouldnt have, the Knicks have always played the better teams better, even the garbage Knicks squads did that, the difference last year was they didnt fall very often to the lower teams.

The common perception during last offseason (especially after we let Lin go) was that we were going to win 40+games get the 6th-8th seed and lose in the 1st rd. Miami, Brooklyn, Bulls, 76ers, Celtics, Pacers, with some claiming Cavs, Wizards, Miluakee would be tough to beat as well would keep us at a low seed.

Nobody could predict rose not suiting up at all, bynum the same situation...those other teams i dont recall any of that.

foosballnick wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:This is what I don't understand about guys that think like you on this forum. Exactly what moves would you expect the team to make this summer that would guarantee a Championship?

Gone: Kidd, Cope, Sheed, KT, Novak, Camby, QRich

Added: Bargnani, Udrih, Hardaway, MWP, Tyler, Leslie

There's no way you can look at that list of players and not say that the team got younger and more talented.

We also have to look at the fact that Shump will come in off a full summer of training rather than just trying to get rehabbed. People are poo pooing MWP but this guy is strong and experienced and has the same mentality as KMart. They won't back down from anyone or any challenge. They'll add a toughness to the roster that this team needs. Bargnani and Udrih bring a high skill level and experience to the roster.

So just what is there to be "Down" about? Why should we Knicks fans not be happy about the moves this team made? Sure none of the moves was sexy, but really could we have expected that given the limited resources? I think this was a GREAT summer given how little we had to offer players. AB didn't really cost us anything of value. MWP, Udrih, KMart and Prigs came cheap given what they can bring to the team. THJ, CJ and Tyler are talented young players who might pan out. What is there to complain about this team?

Here is what you're not understanding....most posters have seen better.

I go as far back to when Bernard King was battling the vaunted Pistons and the HOF stacked Celtics, in matchups that Knicks squad should never have had a chance in, but the won one of those series and gave a massive battle and effort against the Celtics.

This current Knicks team doesnt have that skill, nor heart like those clubs did.

There isnt a single Knicks player currently who even has the heart of John Starks who literally had to guard the players he knew would completely light his ass up nightly.

Those Knicks teams knew they were overmatched but still put up a fight...I personally see no fight in this club...but rather "entitled" players.

I honestly dont have any issue with the "moves" the team made...they did what they could...but this squad is no contender.

They arent built like one, the core does not play like one, and when pushed....they dont act or respond like one.

For me I'm old school, I celebrate all wins....but I care how you lost.

If a better team beat you, i can live with that.....as long as you put in that NY pride.

They didnt do it last year.

There's really no way to argue any of this because most of what you have offered is subjective opinion. Things like "heart" and "entitlement" are cliche opinions formed by your personal preferences. They can not be measured in terms of offering a comparison.

While you see John Starks as a player with heart, I saw him as an overachieving tough guy who hustled, but also made hot headed and bone headed plays. I most remember him from shooting us out of the Knicks best chance at a ship in the past 40 years.

Bernard King is my favorite Knick of all time. However if he played today, I have no doubt that he would be roasted as a volume shooting ball hog on this board by some.

Comparing this Knicks team unfavorably to a past roster that couldn't get over the playoff hurdles to win a ship is a weak argument IMO.

it's not the idea of not getting over the hurdle.....read my comment again....i accept that, if they put up a battle.

tkf wrote:
I am down because I am projecting the future here... what I see is a team that is nowhere close to championship caliber, that has exhausted all of it's resources in terms of picks and that in a couple of years will be far behind the younger teams in the east building upon their young talent, with that ability to make deals for legitimate players because they have the assets to do so..

so what I want is to find a sucker to take guys like chandler, carmelo, give us picks and young players and then, lets sit and talk about shumpert, develop him, and then asses what we have moving forward with a real plan.. this is what I want, and a step the knicks need to take.. walsh was getting us there, but dolan had to have his toy....

TKF, it's cool that you like to build through younger homegrown guys. However some of what you present is revisionist history. Walsh was not getting us there as you indicate. He was strip-mining the Isiah roster in order to clear cap space as quickly as possible to make a run at Lebron. In that upheaval, he also traded away resources (picks) and went all in on Amare, an injury waiting to happen.

Since Walsh has departed, the Knicks have been hamstrung by the Cap/Apron. IMO they have made prudent moves....not always successful, mind you. But enough to give them a punchers chance until the 2015 window comes for a reload. I do not agree that trading everyone and tanking ov the next 2-3 years in order to start again with young guys is the way to go.

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knickscity wrote:

toad wrote:You're completely ignoring that last season's success was due to a very quick start fueled by vets who have a pedigree--Kidd and Wallace. Without their leadership and focus right out of the gate, we don't have that many wins in the regular season. To think that can be replaced by Bargnani, Udrih, THJ is laughable. I think people who think we're a better team this season is in for a rude awakening. Unless Amar'e's knees miraculously hold up and he gives us moments of brilliance, we're not winning 54 games and I don't see this group getting any further in the playoffs.

Bingo, and i was just about to ask that....

Who is the leader on this team?

Where is the veteran presence gonna come from?

When shyt hits the fans which it will because ALL teams have it, who is that one guy to step up and steer the ship?

Who on this team will inspire the Knicks facing a losing streak and comes out with a broke foot and competes.....twice?

Sheed and Kurt did that.

They gonna miss those old dudes on the sidelines...they helped steer ths ship.

This current team has alot of talent in it...Isiah's Knicks did as well.

Not saying the result will be the same...but wont be better than last year.

These same old guys that are irreplaceable now, Knicks management were heavily criticized for bringing them in because of there age.

Isiah brought in talent but the talent didn't compliment each other and ended up canceling each other out.

And that there is the key....this squad is built literally like Isiah's Knicks....Woodson even wants to play them as such.

Wasnt Marbury-Francis the new Clyde and Pearl? Notice how Woody likes the 2 pg lineup....exact same situation.

If you have an inefficent scorer...why on earth would you surround him with more? Bargnani is talented, thats not at question...but he isnt efficient....it will be an uphill climb to get those two in sync, they both have the same weaknesses on offense and Bargs is worse in the other areas.

See the hope is that he will become that...and thats not how it works...he needs to already BE that.

It's like Kobe and Pau....Kobe is great a two way player but isnt efficient, but Pau already was, so his transition was effortless and the result was winning.

To actually believe another inefficient player could compliment another is going against proper logic...it may work for stretches but it cant be sustained when the moment is great and the defense is elite....as we saw with Melo and JR.

Inefficiency never wins compounding it with more inefficiency makes matters worse.

While hoping for Bargnani, we all better pray for Amare.

When Gasol moved from the Grizzlies to the Lakers his FG% when up 7% over 100 games 9 if you count the playoffs. The bottom line to me is this. Andrea Bargnani should be able to get better shots playing with better players where he is not option 1. He needs to rebound and get to the line a little more--where he is around 85% His FG% should be NO lower than 47% that would be my cut off and I would like to see him around 50%. Ih he gets good shots hes going to make half of them and Coach Woodson needs to make sure he gets several touches in the low post--where for the most part he should have someone smaller on him. With Amare Tyson and Bargs flanked by Tyler and Kenyon Martin--we should be efficient and score a good deal of front-court points. Play a lot of motion in the halfcourt--run when we can sub freely heck go 11 deep every game--play 5 bigs--we should be a high quality diverse team with a ton of options and with Artest Chandler Prigioni and Martin--we still have those types of players who can give an edge on D. Im looking 4ward to the season--I think this team is much better than most give credit for. This is a 54 win team that got better--we beat Miami and Indiana--I do not think this is a case where we know we cant beat a certain team 4 times--we can.

BRIGGS wrote:When Gasol moved from the Grizzlies to the Lakers his FG% when up 7% over 100 games 9 if you count the playoffs. The bottom line to me is this. Andrea Bargnani should be able to get better shots playing with better players where he is not option 1. He needs to rebound and get to the line a little more--where he is around 85% His FG% should be NO lower than 47% that would be my cut off and I would like to see him around 50%. Ih he gets good shots hes going to make half of them and Coach Woodson needs to make sure he gets several touches in the low post--where for the most part he should have someone smaller on him. With Amare Tyson and Bargs flanked by Tyler and Kenyon Martin--we should be efficient and score a good deal of front-court points. Play a lot of motion in the halfcourt--run when we can sub freely heck go 11 deep every game--play 5 bigs--we should be a high quality diverse team with a ton of options and with Artest Chandler Prigioni and Martin--we still have those types of players who can give an edge on D. Im looking 4ward to the season--I think this team is much better than most give credit for. This is a 54 win team that got better--we beat Miami and Indiana--I do not think this is a case where we know we cant beat a certain team 4 times--we can.

This is a more capable version of last years team. We still have a good set of PG's but Beno has more left in the tank than Kidd did. Prigs is gonna start the year knowing how the NBA game is played and Shump should be starting at a higher level than last year. JR can ease back into shape and THJ fills in nicely as opposed to Brewer or White.

This summers acquisitions weren't about splash, but rather fit for what the team is looking to do. These players fit into roles that are clearly defined for how we play.