Anji wrote:May bad, I guess the sign and trade counts as three, even though it's more of a free agency loop hole.

not for nothing but he has been listed as a sg his first season. something to think about when assessing his point guard play.

so ar as sign and trade stop playing games. the guy has been "moved" four times and no doubt will be moved from new york in the foreseeable future-- guaranteed.

1) charlotte to new york
2) new york to denver
3) denver to portland
4) portland to new york

i will root for the knicks to win and win big time but i don't see felton as instrumental in this. some poster has recently postulated that he "fits in with the team's objectives perfectly." LOL at such nonsense. yes he is a scrapper but his cardinal flaw is that he does not play within his limitations and always tries to outplay superior point guards to validate his worth. i promise you that this will hurt the team once we get past the first round.

gunsnewing wrote:I think Amare will be inserted in the starting lineup by the time Felton returns. Woodson lets them play on offense. Kidd and Prigioni don't seem to understand that Amare likes the pick n roll. Doesn't help that Woodson has JR running plays and ignoring Amare on the pnr by calling his own number.

doesn't the entire league know Amare loves the pick and roll? i would expect jason kidd, of all PGs in the league to be an expert on what each players strengths are.

I did see a number of times where they'd run the pick n roll and the initial pass wouldnt be there so they'd move the ball. On a couple of those plays Amare was wide open as the ball swung around but someone ended up taking a jump shot instead. They happened to go in a lot but ideally when Amare is in the paint wide open percentages dictate you get him the ball for a bucket or to draw a fall or to draw a double and kick out for an even better shot than the one you're about to take.

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

sebstar wrote:

dk7th wrote:
26-54
31-47
32-47
35-47
42-38
28-26

those teams he played with in the first few years of his career were awful. The point remains that Felton was the PG for the Bobcats first winning record, and playoff appearance in franchise history, and was a favorite of coach larry brown. The knicks record with Felton at the helm has been great.

see what you did there? it's called a red herring. you do this a lot. and then you get on a roll with said red herring:

"Kidd is wonderful as a specialist, role player --- but as a featured pg? A liability. He cant put pressure on a defense, nor make things happen as an athlete anymore at his age, which hurts the effectiveness of his teammates. Anyone who watches knows as much."

this part about hurting the effectiveness of teammates because he lacks athleticism is another red herring. what about the positive ways he affects those same teammates with his skills and savvy?

Like many things that you invoke but arent smart enough to fully conceptualize, you dont know what red herring means because you are misapplying. I was providing support for my argument, not trying to radically take the convo into a different direction with misleading info. SMH

but then you just can't help yourself and continue hammering an empty point home:

"Efficiency often rewards those who do less, not impact the game more."

says who? this is an unfounded assertion which you try to qualify with "often." not going to fly.

Perhaps if you werent so obsessed with butchering the logic fallacy red herring, you might have been able to recognize that Jason Kidd's efficiency rating was part and parcel to that argument. Kidd is not a top 3 pg, as reasonable person can attest, but he is rewarded for his limited output in that metric.

and then you finish with personal opinions masquerading as fact. basically you are saying that you see the game a certain way and that's that. i'll break it down for you:

"Feltons aggressive play," is a euphemism for rash and reckless.

"and decent shooting for a PG the most important position," 39.6% FG is not close to decent

"stresses the defense w/ consistent pressure." nonsense. defenses sag off because they want him to shoot, broken hands or no broken hands. again, the last 5 games he shot 15-20 times a game.

"As a legit offensive threat, the d is on their heels," now you repeat this falsehood to set up another false conclusion:

"which has a positive effect on Melo and the team as a whole." if only he actually distributed the ball properly. so, no... wrong again.

"Even when he misses, its potentially a positive as a cumulative effect (and direct effect w/ an offensive rebound)." LOL

"The formula for success with him as pg works, but it doesnt show up on a sheet sometimes." yeah tell me about it.

My personal opinions are reflected both qualitatively and quantitatively. The shooting percentage % for both Melo and Tyson have dropped in Felton's absence. Again, Felton's struggles with % are directly attributed to devastating hand injuries, yet you keep regurgitating his shooting stat. Any idiot that watches the games can tell that the offense is struggling w/o Felton's penetration and consistent threat on offense. God, I feel like Im talking to children here.

correct me if i am wrong but did bonn or anybody mention that kidd is a point guard? that is YOUR invention, to put it charitably, having ZERO to do with the discussion of felton as point guard. if nobody but you raised this then it. is. a. red. herring.

kidd's efficiency was part and parcel to YOUR premise of speaking about him as a point guard. can't believe you can come up with this tripe with a straight face.

chandler 62% down from around 70%
melo 42.3% down from 47%

while this is factually the case, you are assuming that felton's absence is the reason for this. maybe you have a point with chandler because felton likes alley-ooping. i'll grant you that one.

with melo, however, in spite of repeating the same unfounded points about felton, it is in fact melo's OWN shot selection that has caused his numbers to go down. why? because when felton puts pressure on defenses felton shoots the ball 75% of the time! you can't lose what you never had.

If I may interject my two cents...Bonn has stated many times in this forum and probably this very thread that JKidd is the best PG on this team...

I still think he is but we would need a healthy play-making SG to pair him with.

One who can play the role of a PG?

No. Are Harden, Wade, and Kobe PGs? You don't need anything that outstanding but something better than White.

Well nice try...Kidd is done as a PG...We see it nightly...Funny thing tho...He seems to thrive with Felton getting him easy looks off the ball...But that might result in you giving Felton credit so we can't state the obvious...So lets reach for Kobe and Harden...Lots of people can look good next the Kobe and Wade...Question is can he stand on his own at this stage in his career???...Doesn't look like it but it's early...

Someone like Iggy or Reddick would be fine.

gunsnewing wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:his biggest weakness was scoring. For a PG, his play-making abilities are probably below average but for an SG they are excellent.

yep. but if he scored anymore he'd be in consideration for Rookie of the year. Averaging 9pts as a rookie is not the end of the world. Brewer and Fields averaging 6 each and they are vets

He is like Kidd I think in that he can get those secondary plays off the swing pass which will help his passing and shot. Unlike Kidd he will be able to drive to finish. Shump made improvements in his game once he moved to the two each and every month but dropped off the last month. I also think Shump is way ahead of schedule and that the team has been very cautious with him. Just look at how he was jumping and moving in the summer and if they were worried about Shump they would not have had him leading the team before the game with his dances.

On another note. In a month once Shump is playing regular minutes they need to put Brewer on a conditioning program and get him rested and healthy for the stretch run before the playoffs.

"Be aggressive. For sure, these are big games for us. We wanted to come out aggressive offensively and defensively, get the ball moving."

Felton picked up his pace in the third quarter and it was a good thing.

mrKnickShot wrote:

misterearl wrote:Double Double

"Be aggressive. For sure, these are big games for us. We wanted to come out aggressive offensively and defensively, get the ball moving."

Felton picked up his pace in the third quarter and it was a good thing.

Feltons defense was ass.

His offense was good.

dude, this is what you bring to the site? Try doing it better.

To me it's not the isolation/post ups that are the problem it is the lack of movement on the weak side that is more the problem. They need to make cuts and and set screens to take advantage of the defense tilting the D.

RonRon wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:It is not all Felton's fault a lot of that is on the bigs to hedge on the Pg. Felton was actually passing up shots to make the extra pass and got lucky those passes were not turnovers. As he continues to comeback he needs to get Amar'e more involved and divide the post ups between Amar'e and Melo. Melo needs to play off the ball and play off of Amar'e. THey have shown signs both ways and need to keep growing.

To me it's not the isolation/post ups that are the problem it is the lack of movement on the weak side that is more the problem. They need to make cuts and and set screens to take advantage of the defense tilting the D.

great post, would like to add it shouldn't be Felton's job to make Amare/Melo happy
His job is to get the Knick's the highest % shots, utilize all players on the floor as threats, and attack our opponents defense

It is all about sacrifice for the sake of the team and in the end it is about the W's and consistency rather than the result of the play
Whether it is with PnR, penetration, post up, screens on and off the ball, playing off each other's abilities, and attacking the opponents DEFENSE TOGETHER

You are right it is not about making those two happy but getting those guys touches create touches for others. What will hopefully we will continue to get is those drives off the PnR that leads to open spot ups because you can't help off of Amar'e or Melo which leaves Shump, Jr, Kidd, and the return of Novakain open. I did like what I saw mid third qtr and into the 4th there was movement on the weakside.

Also, the late 4 qtr looked a lot like LA's did without the movement and with Kobe making the past. Melo to many times get blinders on once he makes his move to score. He is good at kicking out or finding the open man but he needs to do a better job passing of the move once the D has collapse like the Net game. SOme of that goes back to the lack of movement but other times its him having blinders.