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djsunyc
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12/18/2016  12:31 PM
GustavBahler wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carl-gibson/mark-dayton-minnesota-economy_b_6737786.html


This Billionaire Governor Taxed the Rich and Increased the Minimum Wage — Now, His State’s Economy Is One of the Best in the Country

By C. Robert Gibson

The next time your right-wing family member or former high school classmate posts a status update or tweet about how taxing the rich or increasing workers’ wages kills jobs and makes businesses leave the state, I want you to send them this article.

When he took office in January of 2011, Minnesota governor Mark Dayton inherited a $6.2 billion budget deficit and a 7 percent unemployment rate from his predecessor, Tim Pawlenty, the soon-forgotten Republican candidate for the presidency who called himself Minnesota’s first true fiscally-conservative governor in modern history. Pawlenty prided himself on never raising state taxes — the most he ever did to generate new revenue was increase the tax on cigarettes by 75 cents a pack. Between 2003 and late 2010, when Pawlenty was at the head of Minnesota’s state government, he managed to add only 6,200 more jobs.

During his first four years in office, Gov. Dayton raised the state income tax from 7.85 to 9.85 percent on individuals earning over $150,000, and on couples earning over $250,000 when filing jointly — a tax increase of $2.1 billion. He’s also agreed to raise Minnesota’s minimum wage to $9.50 an hour by 2018, and passed a state law guaranteeing equal pay for women. Republicans like state representative Mark Uglem warned against Gov. Dayton’s tax increases, saying, “The job creators, the big corporations, the small corporations, they will leave. It’s all dollars and sense to them.” The conservative friend or family member you shared this article with would probably say the same if their governor tried something like this. But like Uglem, they would be proven wrong.

Between 2011 and 2015, Gov. Dayton added 172,000 new jobs to Minnesota’s economy — that’s 165,800 more jobs in Dayton’s first term than Pawlenty added in both of his terms combined. Even though Minnesota’s top income tax rate is the fourth highest in the country, it has the fifth lowest unemployment rate in the country at 3.6 percent. According to 2012-2013 U.S. census figures, Minnesotans had a median income that was $10,000 larger than the U.S. average, and their median income is still $8,000 more than the U.S. average today.

By late 2013, Minnesota’s private sector job growth exceeded pre-recession levels, and the state’s economy was the fifth fastest-growing in the United States. Forbes even ranked Minnesota the ninth best state for business (Scott Walker’s “Open For Business” Wisconsin came in at a distant #32 on the same list). Despite the fearmongering over businesses fleeing from Dayton’s tax cuts, 6,230 more Minnesotans filed in the top income tax bracket in 2013, just one year after Dayton’s tax increases went through. As of January 2015, Minnesota has a $1 billion budget surplus, and Gov. Dayton has pledged to reinvest more than one third of that money into public schools. And according to Gallup, Minnesota’s economic confidence is higher than any other state.

Gov. Dayton didn’t accomplish all of these reforms by shrewdly manipulating people — this article describes Dayton’s astonishing lack of charisma and articulateness. He isn’t a class warrior driven by a desire to get back at the 1 percent — Dayton is a billionaire heir to the Target fortune. It wasn’t just a majority in the legislature that forced him to do it — Dayton had to work with a Republican-controlled legislature for his first two years in office. And unlike his Republican neighbor to the east, Gov. Dayton didn’t assert his will over an unwilling populace by creating obstacles between the people and the vote — Dayton actually created an online voter registration system, making it easier than ever for people to register to vote.

The reason Gov. Dayton was able to radically transform Minnesota’s economy into one of the best in the nation is simple arithmetic. Raising taxes on those who can afford to pay more will turn a deficit into a surplus. Raising the minimum wage will increase the median income. And in a state where education is a budget priority and economic growth is one of the highest in the nation, it only makes sense that more businesses would stay.

It’s official — trickle-down economics is bunk. Minnesota has proven it once and for all. If you believe otherwise, you are wrong.

Stay informed with the latest news and video. Download HuffPost’s news app on iOS or Android.

great article - thanks.

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djsunyc
Posts: 44929
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12/18/2016  12:42 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-supporters-violent_us_5854c489e4b08debb7896896

Donald Trump has finally conceded Friday that his supporters were “vicious, violent, nasty and mean” during the presidential campaign. But he insists they’ve turned “mellow” now that he’s the president-elect.

Trump’s praise for his more laid-back supporters was a marked departure from his earlier calls for violence at campaign rallies, including urging followers in Iowa to “knock the crap” out of protesters and offering to cover legal fees for assaults. And his fans chanted their approval of Trump’s vow to imprison his Democratic opponent Hillary Clinton, though he’s since admitted he only made the threat to win votes.

His crowds could get ugly, Trump conceded Friday in a speech before some 11,000 fans in Orlando, Florida, that’s part of his “thank you” tour.

“You people were vicious, violent, screaming, ‘Where’s the wall? We want the wall!’ Screaming, ‘Prison! Prison! Lock her up!’ I mean you are going crazy. I mean, you were nasty and mean and vicious and you wanted to win, right?” said Trump, speaking from an outdoor stage at the Florida fairgrounds.

“But now, you’re mellow and you’re cool and you’re not nearly as vicious or violent, right? Because we won, right? Now you’re sort of laying back ... you’re basking in the glory of victory.”

However, his Florida fans weren’t all that mellow during his speech. They broke out twice into renewed chants of “lock her up, lock her up.” That prompted Trump to smile and say, “Oh, that’s so terrible.”

One supporter shouted that Clinton should be “waterboarded” and threw an empty water bottle at a reporter, calling him trash, CNN reported. During his address, Trump had called the media “dishonest,” pointing to reporters at the rally, and calling them “these very dishonest people here.” “They’ve written very dishonestly about all of us,” he added.

Trump’s remarks were the first time he has conceded that his followers have been violent. During the campaign, he blamed the several fights at his rallies on Democratic activists who were paid to stage them.

The Florida comments were viewed as an oblique attempt to address the spike in hate crimes. since his victory. His rhetoric, including pledges to build a U.S.-Mexico border wall, ramp up deportations, create a Muslim registry and enact a ban on certain people entering America have been linked to the rise.

Unlike Trump’s perspective on the current climate, the Southern Poverty Law Center tallied the increase and found that his victory did not defuse violence and threats ― and it likely did help unleash the surge.

In other comments, Trump called again for action against protesters who burn the flag, which is speech under the First Amendment.

“I don’t like when I see people burning our flag,” he said. “I don’t like it and we’re going to try doing something about it.”

Trump also lamented — again — that Time magazine named him Person of the Year instead of man of the year.

And he called for national unity.

“Whether you are African-American, Hispanic-American, Asian-American, whatever the hell you might be, we are all Americans and we are all united by one shared destiny,” he said.

cult-like following i guess.

djsunyc
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12/18/2016  12:59 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/18/2016  1:05 PM
"We did great with the African-American community,” Trump said at a Thursday rally in Pennsylvania. “So good. Remember the famous line, because I talk about crime, I talk about lack of education, I talk about no jobs. And I’d say, what the hell do you have to lose? Right? It’s true. And they’re smart and they picked up on it like you wouldn’t believe. And you know what else? They didn’t come out to vote for Hillary. They didn’t come out. And that was a big. So thank you to the African-American community.

b/c when i think of blacks, i think of crime, high school dropouts and folks on welfare. when trump keeps equating those things to african americans, it forms a narrative of the entire race. it's F CKED UP. and remember, there's alot of DUMB MOFOS out there that eat this up and believe it. and he's addressing this to a 99% white audience.

i still remember the town hall debate when the one black guy asked him about what he would to to unite the country and he goes into a diatribe about the "inner cities" - code phrase for places black people live. the racism with him is not subtle at all.

oh and thanks for not voting - we don't want you to.

holfresh
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12/18/2016  1:22 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/18/2016  1:24 PM
Trump tweets..China stole the US drone in an "unpresidented" act..Then later corrects it...
nixluva
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12/18/2016  2:01 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
nixluva wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
nixluva wrote:
djsunyc wrote:
nixluva wrote:The Dems are something else! They RAN from Obama in the last Mid Term Election when they should've stuck by him! They didn't listen to him or his people this election and screwed the pooch!!! They didn't use the same methods Obama's Campaign did in reaching out to White Working Class Voters or Minorities.

This Russia thing was a mess but Obama was in a tough spot! He's damned if he went hard on Russia and damned if he didn't. He's a professional and tries to do things the right way. IMO Obama is not the one to really bash over this. This is on EVERYONE including the Republicans in Congress that KNEW the Russians were interfering and blocked telling the American people cuz it benefited them!!!

i agree obama was in a tough spot. there were choices though - he took the high road trying to work with people that had no real intention of working with him. this country is showing us that the high road is not necessarily the right way to go. i think there needs to be some recognition by the dems regarding that and to not give too much credit to the american people.

a tough option would've been to expose the republican party the past 4 years but i understand why he didn't go that route. but with the benefit of hindsight, it's would've probably been the better road to take.

i'm trying to figure out why the republican party are so united and don't always take the high road when working with dems while the dems come off as a bit weak and disjointed. i have a few hypothesis...and it's just me spitballing...but it seems the republicans have 2 strong common characteristics between their government officials...they are mostly white and they are mostly christian. i think there is a built in bond there, even if it's not openly acknowledged. the dems are a bit more racially diverse with diverse religious backgrounds...combine that with historic systemic oppression for people of color and it's tougher to unite and build a cohesive attack.

now i'm not sure i believe any of that but it's just some thoughts in my head trying to understand. does anybody else have an ideas or theories?

I've tried to make it clear to people like arkrud that the Republican Party is basically the descendants of the old Dixiecrats from the original Democratic Party. The guys who have ALWAYS been organized to protect the status quo of a racist system that also protects the rich and could give a crap about the poor! They represent businesses and social conservatives. They have ties that run deep and they are VICIOUS!

These were the people against the Civil Rights movement and back in the day they had no problem resorting to violence. They used KKK Terrorism to keep power. So to me it's clear why Trump went with the Southern Strategy in this election. It's worked for the Republicans for a long time.

I think this will be the last time it's effective in this country tho. It's a dying strategy and it only worked this time cuz Hillary was such a flawed candidate. The Rural strongholds are weakening as the racial demographics keep changing. This election was the last hurrah for the old order.

Nixluva--do you dislike white people? I mean listen to your own words? They used KKK Terrorism to keep power. So to me it's clear why Trump went with the Southern Strategy in this election. It's worked for the Republicans for a long time.


These comments make no sense--theyre racist.

I just now saw this post. I have no idea what you're talking about!!! My KKK reference is based in FACT and I was clearly talking about the Civil Rights Era! It's clear in the context of the sentence I wrote. Surely you're not going to try and argue with me about the Terrorist actions of the KKK?

Regarding the "Southern Strategy" just look it up for yourself! Perhaps you just don't know what that is but it's a very real tactic.

Your question about me disliking White People is ridiculous. Talking about Racism doesn't make you a racist. That's a Republican mind trick. Just so you know there is more comfort with White People in the Black community than there is comfort with Blacks in White Communities. There are more Blacks with some White ancestry than Whites with Black ancestry. I have LOTS of White relatives!

Nix. Nothing personal but almost everyone of your posts are filled with racial proclamations. If you need to scream RACE as much as you do it just seems like you may have an outstanding issue I hope not you seem Like avery decent guy. Maybe it's time to put down the race stuff

Put down the race stuff??? What do you know about it??? I know FIRST HAND that this so called "race stuff" is still a huge problem in this country and this last 8 years plus this election have exposed the truth that it's still a big problem!!!

I have children and now a grandchild so you better believe this "race stuff" is gonna be important to me! Race and class are the 2 massive issues in this country as they've always been. My talking about Systemic Racism doesn't mean I have a problem with Race!!! You and the Republicans who love to try and flip this will not silence those who see the inequities of this system.

I can tell that you haven't really read a thing I've posted. All you do is key in on the fact that I'm pointing to racial injustice, which is a proven FACT in this country since it's inception. If it's not an issue anymore I'd LOVE to see your proof of this belief. Why don't you lay out your argument for the case that this is a post racial society and an equal system!!!

smackeddog
Posts: 38389
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Joined: 3/30/2005
Member: #883
12/18/2016  2:20 PM
nixluva wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
nixluva wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
nixluva wrote:
djsunyc wrote:
nixluva wrote:The Dems are something else! They RAN from Obama in the last Mid Term Election when they should've stuck by him! They didn't listen to him or his people this election and screwed the pooch!!! They didn't use the same methods Obama's Campaign did in reaching out to White Working Class Voters or Minorities.

This Russia thing was a mess but Obama was in a tough spot! He's damned if he went hard on Russia and damned if he didn't. He's a professional and tries to do things the right way. IMO Obama is not the one to really bash over this. This is on EVERYONE including the Republicans in Congress that KNEW the Russians were interfering and blocked telling the American people cuz it benefited them!!!

i agree obama was in a tough spot. there were choices though - he took the high road trying to work with people that had no real intention of working with him. this country is showing us that the high road is not necessarily the right way to go. i think there needs to be some recognition by the dems regarding that and to not give too much credit to the american people.

a tough option would've been to expose the republican party the past 4 years but i understand why he didn't go that route. but with the benefit of hindsight, it's would've probably been the better road to take.

i'm trying to figure out why the republican party are so united and don't always take the high road when working with dems while the dems come off as a bit weak and disjointed. i have a few hypothesis...and it's just me spitballing...but it seems the republicans have 2 strong common characteristics between their government officials...they are mostly white and they are mostly christian. i think there is a built in bond there, even if it's not openly acknowledged. the dems are a bit more racially diverse with diverse religious backgrounds...combine that with historic systemic oppression for people of color and it's tougher to unite and build a cohesive attack.

now i'm not sure i believe any of that but it's just some thoughts in my head trying to understand. does anybody else have an ideas or theories?

I've tried to make it clear to people like arkrud that the Republican Party is basically the descendants of the old Dixiecrats from the original Democratic Party. The guys who have ALWAYS been organized to protect the status quo of a racist system that also protects the rich and could give a crap about the poor! They represent businesses and social conservatives. They have ties that run deep and they are VICIOUS!

These were the people against the Civil Rights movement and back in the day they had no problem resorting to violence. They used KKK Terrorism to keep power. So to me it's clear why Trump went with the Southern Strategy in this election. It's worked for the Republicans for a long time.

I think this will be the last time it's effective in this country tho. It's a dying strategy and it only worked this time cuz Hillary was such a flawed candidate. The Rural strongholds are weakening as the racial demographics keep changing. This election was the last hurrah for the old order.

Nixluva--do you dislike white people? I mean listen to your own words? They used KKK Terrorism to keep power. So to me it's clear why Trump went with the Southern Strategy in this election. It's worked for the Republicans for a long time.


These comments make no sense--theyre racist.

I just now saw this post. I have no idea what you're talking about!!! My KKK reference is based in FACT and I was clearly talking about the Civil Rights Era! It's clear in the context of the sentence I wrote. Surely you're not going to try and argue with me about the Terrorist actions of the KKK?

Regarding the "Southern Strategy" just look it up for yourself! Perhaps you just don't know what that is but it's a very real tactic.

Your question about me disliking White People is ridiculous. Talking about Racism doesn't make you a racist. That's a Republican mind trick. Just so you know there is more comfort with White People in the Black community than there is comfort with Blacks in White Communities. There are more Blacks with some White ancestry than Whites with Black ancestry. I have LOTS of White relatives!

Nix. Nothing personal but almost everyone of your posts are filled with racial proclamations. If you need to scream RACE as much as you do it just seems like you may have an outstanding issue I hope not you seem Like avery decent guy. Maybe it's time to put down the race stuff

Put down the race stuff??? What do you know about it??? I know FIRST HAND that this so called "race stuff" is still a huge problem in this country and this last 8 years plus this election have exposed the truth that it's still a big problem!!!

I have children and now a grandchild so you better believe this "race stuff" is gonna be important to me! Race and class are the 2 massive issues in this country as they've always been. My talking about Systemic Racism doesn't mean I have a problem with Race!!! You and the Republicans who love to try and flip this will not silence those who see the inequities of this system.

I can tell that you haven't really read a thing I've posted. All you do is key in on the fact that I'm pointing to racial injustice, which is a proven FACT in this country since it's inception. If it's not an issue anymore I'd LOVE to see your proof of this belief. Why don't you lay out your argument for the case that this is a post racial society and an equal system!!!

I've really enjoyed reading your posts Nix, I think some people still have the mindset that the main problem with racism is people talking about it! It's like me robbing BRIGGS house and then when he kicks up a fuss, saying it's him causing the problem by continuously going on about it!

nixluva
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12/18/2016  2:50 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/18/2016  3:00 PM
smackeddog wrote:
nixluva wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
nixluva wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
nixluva wrote:
djsunyc wrote:
nixluva wrote:The Dems are something else! They RAN from Obama in the last Mid Term Election when they should've stuck by him! They didn't listen to him or his people this election and screwed the pooch!!! They didn't use the same methods Obama's Campaign did in reaching out to White Working Class Voters or Minorities.

This Russia thing was a mess but Obama was in a tough spot! He's damned if he went hard on Russia and damned if he didn't. He's a professional and tries to do things the right way. IMO Obama is not the one to really bash over this. This is on EVERYONE including the Republicans in Congress that KNEW the Russians were interfering and blocked telling the American people cuz it benefited them!!!

i agree obama was in a tough spot. there were choices though - he took the high road trying to work with people that had no real intention of working with him. this country is showing us that the high road is not necessarily the right way to go. i think there needs to be some recognition by the dems regarding that and to not give too much credit to the american people.

a tough option would've been to expose the republican party the past 4 years but i understand why he didn't go that route. but with the benefit of hindsight, it's would've probably been the better road to take.

i'm trying to figure out why the republican party are so united and don't always take the high road when working with dems while the dems come off as a bit weak and disjointed. i have a few hypothesis...and it's just me spitballing...but it seems the republicans have 2 strong common characteristics between their government officials...they are mostly white and they are mostly christian. i think there is a built in bond there, even if it's not openly acknowledged. the dems are a bit more racially diverse with diverse religious backgrounds...combine that with historic systemic oppression for people of color and it's tougher to unite and build a cohesive attack.

now i'm not sure i believe any of that but it's just some thoughts in my head trying to understand. does anybody else have an ideas or theories?

I've tried to make it clear to people like arkrud that the Republican Party is basically the descendants of the old Dixiecrats from the original Democratic Party. The guys who have ALWAYS been organized to protect the status quo of a racist system that also protects the rich and could give a crap about the poor! They represent businesses and social conservatives. They have ties that run deep and they are VICIOUS!

These were the people against the Civil Rights movement and back in the day they had no problem resorting to violence. They used KKK Terrorism to keep power. So to me it's clear why Trump went with the Southern Strategy in this election. It's worked for the Republicans for a long time.

I think this will be the last time it's effective in this country tho. It's a dying strategy and it only worked this time cuz Hillary was such a flawed candidate. The Rural strongholds are weakening as the racial demographics keep changing. This election was the last hurrah for the old order.

Nixluva--do you dislike white people? I mean listen to your own words? They used KKK Terrorism to keep power. So to me it's clear why Trump went with the Southern Strategy in this election. It's worked for the Republicans for a long time.


These comments make no sense--theyre racist.

I just now saw this post. I have no idea what you're talking about!!! My KKK reference is based in FACT and I was clearly talking about the Civil Rights Era! It's clear in the context of the sentence I wrote. Surely you're not going to try and argue with me about the Terrorist actions of the KKK?

Regarding the "Southern Strategy" just look it up for yourself! Perhaps you just don't know what that is but it's a very real tactic.

Your question about me disliking White People is ridiculous. Talking about Racism doesn't make you a racist. That's a Republican mind trick. Just so you know there is more comfort with White People in the Black community than there is comfort with Blacks in White Communities. There are more Blacks with some White ancestry than Whites with Black ancestry. I have LOTS of White relatives!

Nix. Nothing personal but almost everyone of your posts are filled with racial proclamations. If you need to scream RACE as much as you do it just seems like you may have an outstanding issue I hope not you seem Like avery decent guy. Maybe it's time to put down the race stuff

Put down the race stuff??? What do you know about it??? I know FIRST HAND that this so called "race stuff" is still a huge problem in this country and this last 8 years plus this election have exposed the truth that it's still a big problem!!!

I have children and now a grandchild so you better believe this "race stuff" is gonna be important to me! Race and class are the 2 massive issues in this country as they've always been. My talking about Systemic Racism doesn't mean I have a problem with Race!!! You and the Republicans who love to try and flip this will not silence those who see the inequities of this system.

I can tell that you haven't really read a thing I've posted. All you do is key in on the fact that I'm pointing to racial injustice, which is a proven FACT in this country since it's inception. If it's not an issue anymore I'd LOVE to see your proof of this belief. Why don't you lay out your argument for the case that this is a post racial society and an equal system!!!

I've really enjoyed reading your posts Nix, I think some people still have the mindset that the main problem with racism is people talking about it! It's like me robbing BRIGGS house and then when he kicks up a fuss, saying it's him causing the problem by continuously going on about it!

The crazy thing is that those in power have used race to divide the masses of Poor and Middle Class since Day One!!! White Yeoman Farmers and Craftsman started to resent Slaves because Slave Holders would rent their Slaves out to do work for LESS than say a White Carpenter or Iron Worker would get. When confronted on this the Rich Slave Holders refused to stop doing it.

After Slavery ended this situation continued to be a problem. There were efforts to unite the Black and White Working Class but Racists and the Elite Business Class fought to keep this from happening. They feared a united Working Class. One example of this is The Southern Tenant Farmers Union:

The Southern Tenant Farmers Union (STFU) was founded in Tyronza, Arkansas in July 1934 by black and white tenant farmers and Socialist Party members. The STFU is part of a rich tradition of labor organizing in the Depression-era South amongst mostly Black agricultural laborers. Since the Reconstruction era the vast majority of Southern farmers were exploited under semi-feudal labor conditions, paying for their land usage with crops, and easily subject to the whims of the white landowners. Their plight was exacerbated by the Great Depression and ironically by a highly touted New Deal reform, the Agricultural Administration Act (AAA). As provisions of the AAA reduced large farmers’ need for laborers, the lives of 1930s sharecroppers and tenant farmers grew more difficult. That they built successful unions, often with help from radical organizations, is one of the most inspiring chapters of African American and labor history. - See more at: http://www.blackpast.org/aah/southern-tenant-farmers-union#sthash.z3ummRXY.dpuf

martin
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12/18/2016  2:57 PM
Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
nixluva
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12/18/2016  3:04 PM
martin wrote:

That was PERFECT. LOL 😂

holfresh
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12/18/2016  3:05 PM
martin wrote:

"The Bish, He Cray"...

nixluva
Posts: 56258
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12/18/2016  3:30 PM
nixluva wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
nixluva wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
nixluva wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
nixluva wrote:
djsunyc wrote:
nixluva wrote:The Dems are something else! They RAN from Obama in the last Mid Term Election when they should've stuck by him! They didn't listen to him or his people this election and screwed the pooch!!! They didn't use the same methods Obama's Campaign did in reaching out to White Working Class Voters or Minorities.

This Russia thing was a mess but Obama was in a tough spot! He's damned if he went hard on Russia and damned if he didn't. He's a professional and tries to do things the right way. IMO Obama is not the one to really bash over this. This is on EVERYONE including the Republicans in Congress that KNEW the Russians were interfering and blocked telling the American people cuz it benefited them!!!

i agree obama was in a tough spot. there were choices though - he took the high road trying to work with people that had no real intention of working with him. this country is showing us that the high road is not necessarily the right way to go. i think there needs to be some recognition by the dems regarding that and to not give too much credit to the american people.

a tough option would've been to expose the republican party the past 4 years but i understand why he didn't go that route. but with the benefit of hindsight, it's would've probably been the better road to take.

i'm trying to figure out why the republican party are so united and don't always take the high road when working with dems while the dems come off as a bit weak and disjointed. i have a few hypothesis...and it's just me spitballing...but it seems the republicans have 2 strong common characteristics between their government officials...they are mostly white and they are mostly christian. i think there is a built in bond there, even if it's not openly acknowledged. the dems are a bit more racially diverse with diverse religious backgrounds...combine that with historic systemic oppression for people of color and it's tougher to unite and build a cohesive attack.

now i'm not sure i believe any of that but it's just some thoughts in my head trying to understand. does anybody else have an ideas or theories?

I've tried to make it clear to people like arkrud that the Republican Party is basically the descendants of the old Dixiecrats from the original Democratic Party. The guys who have ALWAYS been organized to protect the status quo of a racist system that also protects the rich and could give a crap about the poor! They represent businesses and social conservatives. They have ties that run deep and they are VICIOUS!

These were the people against the Civil Rights movement and back in the day they had no problem resorting to violence. They used KKK Terrorism to keep power. So to me it's clear why Trump went with the Southern Strategy in this election. It's worked for the Republicans for a long time.

I think this will be the last time it's effective in this country tho. It's a dying strategy and it only worked this time cuz Hillary was such a flawed candidate. The Rural strongholds are weakening as the racial demographics keep changing. This election was the last hurrah for the old order.

Nixluva--do you dislike white people? I mean listen to your own words? They used KKK Terrorism to keep power. So to me it's clear why Trump went with the Southern Strategy in this election. It's worked for the Republicans for a long time.


These comments make no sense--theyre racist.

I just now saw this post. I have no idea what you're talking about!!! My KKK reference is based in FACT and I was clearly talking about the Civil Rights Era! It's clear in the context of the sentence I wrote. Surely you're not going to try and argue with me about the Terrorist actions of the KKK?

Regarding the "Southern Strategy" just look it up for yourself! Perhaps you just don't know what that is but it's a very real tactic.

Your question about me disliking White People is ridiculous. Talking about Racism doesn't make you a racist. That's a Republican mind trick. Just so you know there is more comfort with White People in the Black community than there is comfort with Blacks in White Communities. There are more Blacks with some White ancestry than Whites with Black ancestry. I have LOTS of White relatives!

Nix. Nothing personal but almost everyone of your posts are filled with racial proclamations. If you need to scream RACE as much as you do it just seems like you may have an outstanding issue I hope not you seem Like avery decent guy. Maybe it's time to put down the race stuff

Put down the race stuff??? What do you know about it??? I know FIRST HAND that this so called "race stuff" is still a huge problem in this country and this last 8 years plus this election have exposed the truth that it's still a big problem!!!

I have children and now a grandchild so you better believe this "race stuff" is gonna be important to me! Race and class are the 2 massive issues in this country as they've always been. My talking about Systemic Racism doesn't mean I have a problem with Race!!! You and the Republicans who love to try and flip this will not silence those who see the inequities of this system.

I can tell that you haven't really read a thing I've posted. All you do is key in on the fact that I'm pointing to racial injustice, which is a proven FACT in this country since it's inception. If it's not an issue anymore I'd LOVE to see your proof of this belief. Why don't you lay out your argument for the case that this is a post racial society and an equal system!!!

I've really enjoyed reading your posts Nix, I think some people still have the mindset that the main problem with racism is people talking about it! It's like me robbing BRIGGS house and then when he kicks up a fuss, saying it's him causing the problem by continuously going on about it!

The crazy thing is that those in power have used race to divide the masses of Poor and Middle Class since Day One!!! White Yeoman Farmers and Craftsman started to resent Slaves because Slave Holders would rent their Slaves out to do work for LESS than say a White Carpenter or Iron Worker would get. When confronted on this the Rich Slave Holders refused to stop doing it.

After Slavery ended this situation continued to be a problem. There were efforts to unite the Black and White Working Class but Racists and the Elite Business Class fought to keep this from happening. They feared a united Working Class. One example of this is The Southern Tenant Farmers Union:

The Southern Tenant Farmers Union (STFU) was founded in Tyronza, Arkansas in July 1934 by black and white tenant farmers and Socialist Party members. The STFU is part of a rich tradition of labor organizing in the Depression-era South amongst mostly Black agricultural laborers. Since the Reconstruction era the vast majority of Southern farmers were exploited under semi-feudal labor conditions, paying for their land usage with crops, and easily subject to the whims of the white landowners. Their plight was exacerbated by the Great Depression and ironically by a highly touted New Deal reform, the Agricultural Administration Act (AAA). As provisions of the AAA reduced large farmers’ need for laborers, the lives of 1930s sharecroppers and tenant farmers grew more difficult. That they built successful unions, often with help from radical organizations, is one of the most inspiring chapters of African American and labor history. - See more at: http://www.blackpast.org/aah/southern-tenant-farmers-union#sthash.z3ummRXY.dpuf

Here is an addendum to my earlier post with another similar situation that predates the one above:

Colored Farmers' National Alliance and Cooperative Union was formed in 1886 in Texas. Despite the fact that both black and white farmers faced great difficulties due to the rising price of farming and the decreasing profits which were coming from farming, the protective organization known as the Southern Farmers' Alliance did not allow black farmers to join. A group of black farmers decided to organize their own alliance, to fill their need. The organization rapidly spread across the Southern United States, peaking with a membership of 1.2 million in 1891.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored_Farmers%27_National_Alliance_and_Cooperative_Union

The crazy thing about this is the White Farmers eventually realized that it was against their own best interests to deny inclusion of the Black Farmers. By doing that they allowed buyers to undercut the price White Farmers could get since the Buyers would just go to the Black Farmers who would accept a lower price!!! Despite realizing this they still couldn't get past their Racism to fully include the Black Farmers into their Union. This is the reason I talk about RACE!!! IMO many White Trump Voters made the same mistake again cuz they don't know the history of how race is used to divide and concur! The Southern Strategy is the method of choice to get that done.

holfresh
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12/18/2016  5:26 PM
GustavBahler
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12/18/2016  7:11 PM
A Spy Coup in America?

From Consortium News

As Official Washington's latest "group think" solidifies into certainty -- that Russia used hacked Democratic emails to help elect Donald Trump -- something entirely different may be afoot: a months-long effort by elements of the U.S. intelligence community to determine who becomes the next president.

I was told by a well-placed intelligence source some months ago that senior leaders of the Obama administration's intelligence agencies -- from the CIA to the FBI -- were deeply concerned about either Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump ascending to the presidency. And, it's true that intelligence officials often come to see themselves as the stewards of America's fundamental interests, sometimes needing to protect the country from dangerous passions of the public or from inept or corrupt political leaders.

It was, after all, a senior FBI official, Mark Felt, who -- as "Deep Throat" -- guided The Washington Post's Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein in their Watergate investigation into the criminality of President Richard Nixon. And, I was told by former U.S. intelligence officers that they wanted to block President Jimmy Carter's reelection in 1980 because they viewed him as ineffectual and thus not protecting American global interests.

It's also true that intelligence community sources frequently plant stories in major mainstream publications that serve propaganda or political goals, including stories that can be misleading or entirely false.

What's Going On?

So, what to make of what we have seen over the past several months when there have been a series of leaks and investigations that have damaged both Clinton and Trump -- with some major disclosures coming, overtly and covertly, from the U.S. intelligence community led by CIA Director John Brennan and FBI Director James Comey?

Some sources of damaging disclosures remain mysterious. Clinton's campaign was hobbled by leaked emails from the Democratic National Committee -- showing it undercutting Clinton's chief rival, Sen. Bernie Sanders -- and from her campaign chairman John Podesta -- exposing the content of her speeches to Wall Street banks that she had tried to hide from the voters, and revealing the Clinton Foundation's questionable contacts with foreign governments.

Clinton -- already burdened with a reputation for secrecy and dishonesty -- suffered from the drip, drip, drip of releases from WikiLeaks of the DNC and Podesta emails although it remains unclear who gave the emails to WikiLeaks. Still, the combination of the two email batches added to public suspicions about Clinton and reminded people why they didn't trust her.

But the most crippling blow to Clinton came from FBI Director Comey in the last week of the campaign when he re-opened and then re-closed the investigation into whether she broke the law with her sloppy handling of classified material in her State Department emails funneled through a home server.

Following Comey's last-minute revival of the Clinton email controversy, her poll numbers fell far enough to enable Trump to grab three normally Democratic states -- Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin -- enough to give him a victory in the Electoral College.

Taking Down Trump

However, over the past few weeks, the U.S. intelligence community, led by CIA Director Brennan and seconded by FBI Director Comey, has tried to delegitimize Trump by using leaks to the mainstream U.S. news media to pin the release of the DNC and Podesta emails on Russia and claiming that Russian President Vladimir Putin was personally trying to put Trump into the White House.

Russian President Vladimir Putin during a state visit to Austria on June 24, 2014.Russian President Vladimir Putin during a state visit to Austria on June 24, 2014.
(image by (Official Russian government photo)) License DMCA Details
This remarkable series of assessments from the CIA -- now endorsed by the leadership of the FBI -- come on the eve of the Electoral College members assembling to cast their formal votes to determine who becomes the new U.S. president. Although the Electoral College process is usually simply a formality, the Russian-hacking claims made by the U.S. intelligence community have raised the possibility that enough electors might withhold their votes from Trump to deny him the presidency.

A Spy Coup in America?

If on Monday enough Trump electors decide to cast their votes for someone else -- possibly another Republican -- the presidential selection could go to the House of Representatives where, conceivably, the Republican-controlled chamber could choose someone other than Trump.

In other words, there is an arguable scenario in which the U.S. intelligence community first undercut Clinton and, secondly, Trump, seeking -- however unlikely -- to get someone installed in the White House considered more suitable to the CIA's and the FBI's views of what's good for the country.

Who Did the Leaking?

At the center of this controversy is the question of who leaked or hacked the DNC and Podesta emails. The CIA has planted the story in The Washington Post, The New York Times and other mainstream outlets that it was Russia that hacked both the DNC and Podesta emails and slipped the material to WikiLeaks with the goal of assisting the Trump campaign. The suggestion is that Trump is Putin's "puppet," just as Hillary Clinton alleged during the third presidential debate.

But WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange has publicly denied that Russia was the source of the leaks and one of his associates, former British Ambassador to Uzbekistan Craig Murray, has suggested that the DNC leak came from a "disgruntled" Democrat upset with the DNC's sandbagging of the Sanders campaign and that the Podesta leak came from the U.S. intelligence community.

Although Assange recently has sought to muzzle Murray's public comments -- out of apparent concern for protecting the identity of sources -- Murray offered possibly his most expansive account of the sourcing during a podcast interview with Scott Horton on Dec. 13.


Murray, who became a whistleblower himself when he protested Britain's tolerance of human rights abuses in Uzbekistan, explained that he consults with Assange and cooperates with WikiLeaks "without being a formal member of the structure."

But he appears to have undertaken a mission for WikiLeaks to contact one of the sources (or a representative) during a Sept. 25 visit to Washington where he says he met with a person in a wooded area of American University. At the time, Murray was at American University participating in an awards ceremony for former CIA officer John Kiriakou who was being honored by a group of former Western intelligence officials, the Sam Adams Associates, named for the late Vietnam War-era CIA analyst and whistleblower Sam Adams.

Former CIA analyst Ray McGovern, a founder of the Sam Adams group, told me that Murray was "m-c-ing" the event but then slipped away, skipping a reception that followed the award ceremony.

Reading Between Lines

Though Murray has declined to say exactly what the meeting in the woods was about, he may have been passing along messages about ways to protect the source from possible retaliation, maybe even an extraction plan if the source was in some legal or physical danger.

Murray has disputed a report in London's Daily Mail that he was receiving a batch of the leaked Democratic emails. "The material, I think, was already safely with WikiLeaks before I got there in September," Murray said in the interview with Scott Horton. "I had a small role to play."

Murray also suggested that the DNC leak and the Podesta leak came from two different sources, neither of them the Russian government.

"The Podesta emails and the DNC emails are, of course, two separate things and we shouldn't conclude that they both have the same source," Murray said. "In both cases we're talking of a leak, not a hack, in that the person who was responsible for getting that information out had legal access to that information."

A Spy Coup in America?

Reading between the lines of the interview, one could interpret Murray's comments as suggesting that the DNC leak came from a Democratic source and that the Podesta leak came from someone inside the U.S. intelligence community, which may have been monitoring John Podesta's emails because the Podesta Group, which he founded with his brother Tony, served as a registered "foreign agent" for Saudi Arabia.

"John Podesta was a paid lobbyist for the Saudi government," Murray noted. "If the American security services were not watching the communications of the Saudi government's paid lobbyist in Washington, then the American security services would not be doing their job. ... His communications are going to be of interest to a great number of other security services as well."

Leak by Americans

Scott Horton then asked, "Is it fair to say that you're saying that the Podesta leak came from inside the intelligence services, NSA [the electronic spying National Security Agency] or another agency?"

"I think what I said was certainly compatible with that kind of interpretation, yeah," Murray responded. "In both cases they are leaks by Americans."

In reference to the leak of the DNC emails, Murray noted that "Julian Assange took very close interest in the death of Seth Rich, the Democratic staff member" who had worked for the DNC on voter databases and was shot and killed on July 10 near his Washington, D.C., home.

Murray continued, "WikiLeaks offered a $20,000 reward for information leading to the capture of his killers. So, obviously there are suspicions there about what's happening and things are somewhat murky. I'm not saying -- don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying that he was the source of the [DNC] leaks. What I'm saying is that it's probably not an unfair indication to draw that WikiLeaks believes that he may have been killed by someone who thought he was the source of the leaks ... whether correctly or incorrectly."

Though acknowledging that such killings can become grist for conspiracy buffs, Murray added: "But people do die over this sort of stuff. There were billions of dollars -- literally billions of dollars -- behind Hillary Clinton's election campaign and those people have lost their money.

"You have also to remember that there's a big financial interest -- particularly in the armaments industry -- in a bad American relationship with Russia and the worse the relationship with Russia is the larger contracts the armaments industry can expect especially in the most high-tech high-profit side of fighter jets and missiles and that kind of thing.

"And Trump has actually already indicated he's looking to make savings on the defense budget particularly in things like fighter [jet] projects. So, there are people standing to lose billions of dollars and anybody who thinks in that situation bad things don't happen to people is very naive."

An Intelligence Coup?

There's another possibility in play here: that the U.S. intelligence community is felling a number of birds with one stone. If indeed U.S. intelligence bigwigs deemed both Clinton and Trump unfit to serve as President -- albeit for different reasons -- they could have become involved in leaking at least the Podesta emails to weaken Clinton's campaign, setting the candidate up for the more severe blow from FBI Director Comey in the last week of the campaign.

Further, the Russia-bashing that is all the rage in the mainstream U.S. media will surely encourage the Congress to escalate the New Cold War, regardless of Trump's desires, and thus ensure plenty more money for both the intelligence agencies and the military contractors.Then, by blaming the leaks on Russian President Putin, the U.S. intelligence leadership could set the stage for Trump's defeat in the Electoral College, opening the door to the elevation of a more traditional Republican. However, even if that unlikely event -- defeating Trump in the Electoral College -- proves impossible, Trump would at least be weakened as he enters the White House and thus might not be able to move very aggressively toward a de'tente with Russia.

Official Washington's "group think" holding Russia responsible for the Clinton leaks does draw some logical support from the near certainty that Russian intelligence has sought to penetrate information sources around both Clinton and Trump. But the gap between the likely Russian hacking efforts and the question of who gave the email information to WikiLeaks is where mainstream assumptions may fall down.

As ex-Ambassador Murray has said, U.S. intelligence was almost surely keeping tabs on Podesta's communications because of his ties to Saudi Arabia and other foreign governments. So, the U.S. intelligence community represents another suspect in the case of who leaked those emails to WikiLeaks. It would be a smart play, reminiscent of the convoluted spy tales of John LeCarre', if U.S. intelligence officials sought to cover their own tracks by shifting suspicions onto the Russians.


But just the suspicion of the CIA joining the FBI and possibly other U.S. intelligence agencies to intervene in the American people's choice of a president would cause President Harry Truman, who launched the CIA with prohibitions against it engaging in domestic activities, and Sen. Frank Church, who investigated the CIA's abuses, to spin in their graves.

http://www.consortiumnews.com
Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories in the 1980s for the Associated Press and Newsweek. His latest book, Secrecy & Privilege: Rise of the Bush Dynasty from Watergate to Iraq, can be ordered at secrecyandprivilege.com. It's also available at
(more...)

holfresh
Posts: 38679
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12/18/2016  8:21 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
A Spy Coup in America?

From Consortium News

As Official Washington's latest "group think" solidifies into certainty -- that Russia used hacked Democratic emails to help elect Donald Trump -- something entirely different may be afoot: a months-long effort by elements of the U.S. intelligence community to determine who becomes the next president.

I was told by a well-placed intelligence source some months ago that senior leaders of the Obama administration's intelligence agencies -- from the CIA to the FBI -- were deeply concerned about either Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump ascending to the presidency. And, it's true that intelligence officials often come to see themselves as the stewards of America's fundamental interests, sometimes needing to protect the country from dangerous passions of the public or from inept or corrupt political leaders.

It was, after all, a senior FBI official, Mark Felt, who -- as "Deep Throat" -- guided The Washington Post's Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein in their Watergate investigation into the criminality of President Richard Nixon. And, I was told by former U.S. intelligence officers that they wanted to block President Jimmy Carter's reelection in 1980 because they viewed him as ineffectual and thus not protecting American global interests.

It's also true that intelligence community sources frequently plant stories in major mainstream publications that serve propaganda or political goals, including stories that can be misleading or entirely false.

What's Going On?

So, what to make of what we have seen over the past several months when there have been a series of leaks and investigations that have damaged both Clinton and Trump -- with some major disclosures coming, overtly and covertly, from the U.S. intelligence community led by CIA Director John Brennan and FBI Director James Comey?

Some sources of damaging disclosures remain mysterious. Clinton's campaign was hobbled by leaked emails from the Democratic National Committee -- showing it undercutting Clinton's chief rival, Sen. Bernie Sanders -- and from her campaign chairman John Podesta -- exposing the content of her speeches to Wall Street banks that she had tried to hide from the voters, and revealing the Clinton Foundation's questionable contacts with foreign governments.

Clinton -- already burdened with a reputation for secrecy and dishonesty -- suffered from the drip, drip, drip of releases from WikiLeaks of the DNC and Podesta emails although it remains unclear who gave the emails to WikiLeaks. Still, the combination of the two email batches added to public suspicions about Clinton and reminded people why they didn't trust her.

But the most crippling blow to Clinton came from FBI Director Comey in the last week of the campaign when he re-opened and then re-closed the investigation into whether she broke the law with her sloppy handling of classified material in her State Department emails funneled through a home server.

Following Comey's last-minute revival of the Clinton email controversy, her poll numbers fell far enough to enable Trump to grab three normally Democratic states -- Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin -- enough to give him a victory in the Electoral College.

Taking Down Trump

However, over the past few weeks, the U.S. intelligence community, led by CIA Director Brennan and seconded by FBI Director Comey, has tried to delegitimize Trump by using leaks to the mainstream U.S. news media to pin the release of the DNC and Podesta emails on Russia and claiming that Russian President Vladimir Putin was personally trying to put Trump into the White House.

Russian President Vladimir Putin during a state visit to Austria on June 24, 2014.Russian President Vladimir Putin during a state visit to Austria on June 24, 2014.
(image by (Official Russian government photo)) License DMCA Details
This remarkable series of assessments from the CIA -- now endorsed by the leadership of the FBI -- come on the eve of the Electoral College members assembling to cast their formal votes to determine who becomes the new U.S. president. Although the Electoral College process is usually simply a formality, the Russian-hacking claims made by the U.S. intelligence community have raised the possibility that enough electors might withhold their votes from Trump to deny him the presidency.

A Spy Coup in America?

If on Monday enough Trump electors decide to cast their votes for someone else -- possibly another Republican -- the presidential selection could go to the House of Representatives where, conceivably, the Republican-controlled chamber could choose someone other than Trump.

In other words, there is an arguable scenario in which the U.S. intelligence community first undercut Clinton and, secondly, Trump, seeking -- however unlikely -- to get someone installed in the White House considered more suitable to the CIA's and the FBI's views of what's good for the country.

Who Did the Leaking?

At the center of this controversy is the question of who leaked or hacked the DNC and Podesta emails. The CIA has planted the story in The Washington Post, The New York Times and other mainstream outlets that it was Russia that hacked both the DNC and Podesta emails and slipped the material to WikiLeaks with the goal of assisting the Trump campaign. The suggestion is that Trump is Putin's "puppet," just as Hillary Clinton alleged during the third presidential debate.

But WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange has publicly denied that Russia was the source of the leaks and one of his associates, former British Ambassador to Uzbekistan Craig Murray, has suggested that the DNC leak came from a "disgruntled" Democrat upset with the DNC's sandbagging of the Sanders campaign and that the Podesta leak came from the U.S. intelligence community.

Although Assange recently has sought to muzzle Murray's public comments -- out of apparent concern for protecting the identity of sources -- Murray offered possibly his most expansive account of the sourcing during a podcast interview with Scott Horton on Dec. 13.


Murray, who became a whistleblower himself when he protested Britain's tolerance of human rights abuses in Uzbekistan, explained that he consults with Assange and cooperates with WikiLeaks "without being a formal member of the structure."

But he appears to have undertaken a mission for WikiLeaks to contact one of the sources (or a representative) during a Sept. 25 visit to Washington where he says he met with a person in a wooded area of American University. At the time, Murray was at American University participating in an awards ceremony for former CIA officer John Kiriakou who was being honored by a group of former Western intelligence officials, the Sam Adams Associates, named for the late Vietnam War-era CIA analyst and whistleblower Sam Adams.

Former CIA analyst Ray McGovern, a founder of the Sam Adams group, told me that Murray was "m-c-ing" the event but then slipped away, skipping a reception that followed the award ceremony.

Reading Between Lines

Though Murray has declined to say exactly what the meeting in the woods was about, he may have been passing along messages about ways to protect the source from possible retaliation, maybe even an extraction plan if the source was in some legal or physical danger.

Murray has disputed a report in London's Daily Mail that he was receiving a batch of the leaked Democratic emails. "The material, I think, was already safely with WikiLeaks before I got there in September," Murray said in the interview with Scott Horton. "I had a small role to play."

Murray also suggested that the DNC leak and the Podesta leak came from two different sources, neither of them the Russian government.

"The Podesta emails and the DNC emails are, of course, two separate things and we shouldn't conclude that they both have the same source," Murray said. "In both cases we're talking of a leak, not a hack, in that the person who was responsible for getting that information out had legal access to that information."

A Spy Coup in America?

Reading between the lines of the interview, one could interpret Murray's comments as suggesting that the DNC leak came from a Democratic source and that the Podesta leak came from someone inside the U.S. intelligence community, which may have been monitoring John Podesta's emails because the Podesta Group, which he founded with his brother Tony, served as a registered "foreign agent" for Saudi Arabia.

"John Podesta was a paid lobbyist for the Saudi government," Murray noted. "If the American security services were not watching the communications of the Saudi government's paid lobbyist in Washington, then the American security services would not be doing their job. ... His communications are going to be of interest to a great number of other security services as well."

Leak by Americans

Scott Horton then asked, "Is it fair to say that you're saying that the Podesta leak came from inside the intelligence services, NSA [the electronic spying National Security Agency] or another agency?"

"I think what I said was certainly compatible with that kind of interpretation, yeah," Murray responded. "In both cases they are leaks by Americans."

In reference to the leak of the DNC emails, Murray noted that "Julian Assange took very close interest in the death of Seth Rich, the Democratic staff member" who had worked for the DNC on voter databases and was shot and killed on July 10 near his Washington, D.C., home.

Murray continued, "WikiLeaks offered a $20,000 reward for information leading to the capture of his killers. So, obviously there are suspicions there about what's happening and things are somewhat murky. I'm not saying -- don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying that he was the source of the [DNC] leaks. What I'm saying is that it's probably not an unfair indication to draw that WikiLeaks believes that he may have been killed by someone who thought he was the source of the leaks ... whether correctly or incorrectly."

Though acknowledging that such killings can become grist for conspiracy buffs, Murray added: "But people do die over this sort of stuff. There were billions of dollars -- literally billions of dollars -- behind Hillary Clinton's election campaign and those people have lost their money.

"You have also to remember that there's a big financial interest -- particularly in the armaments industry -- in a bad American relationship with Russia and the worse the relationship with Russia is the larger contracts the armaments industry can expect especially in the most high-tech high-profit side of fighter jets and missiles and that kind of thing.

"And Trump has actually already indicated he's looking to make savings on the defense budget particularly in things like fighter [jet] projects. So, there are people standing to lose billions of dollars and anybody who thinks in that situation bad things don't happen to people is very naive."

An Intelligence Coup?

There's another possibility in play here: that the U.S. intelligence community is felling a number of birds with one stone. If indeed U.S. intelligence bigwigs deemed both Clinton and Trump unfit to serve as President -- albeit for different reasons -- they could have become involved in leaking at least the Podesta emails to weaken Clinton's campaign, setting the candidate up for the more severe blow from FBI Director Comey in the last week of the campaign.

Further, the Russia-bashing that is all the rage in the mainstream U.S. media will surely encourage the Congress to escalate the New Cold War, regardless of Trump's desires, and thus ensure plenty more money for both the intelligence agencies and the military contractors.Then, by blaming the leaks on Russian President Putin, the U.S. intelligence leadership could set the stage for Trump's defeat in the Electoral College, opening the door to the elevation of a more traditional Republican. However, even if that unlikely event -- defeating Trump in the Electoral College -- proves impossible, Trump would at least be weakened as he enters the White House and thus might not be able to move very aggressively toward a de'tente with Russia.

Official Washington's "group think" holding Russia responsible for the Clinton leaks does draw some logical support from the near certainty that Russian intelligence has sought to penetrate information sources around both Clinton and Trump. But the gap between the likely Russian hacking efforts and the question of who gave the email information to WikiLeaks is where mainstream assumptions may fall down.

As ex-Ambassador Murray has said, U.S. intelligence was almost surely keeping tabs on Podesta's communications because of his ties to Saudi Arabia and other foreign governments. So, the U.S. intelligence community represents another suspect in the case of who leaked those emails to WikiLeaks. It would be a smart play, reminiscent of the convoluted spy tales of John LeCarre', if U.S. intelligence officials sought to cover their own tracks by shifting suspicions onto the Russians.


But just the suspicion of the CIA joining the FBI and possibly other U.S. intelligence agencies to intervene in the American people's choice of a president would cause President Harry Truman, who launched the CIA with prohibitions against it engaging in domestic activities, and Sen. Frank Church, who investigated the CIA's abuses, to spin in their graves.

http://www.consortiumnews.com
Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories in the 1980s for the Associated Press and Newsweek. His latest book, Secrecy & Privilege: Rise of the Bush Dynasty from Watergate to Iraq, can be ordered at secrecyandprivilege.com. It's also available at
(more...)

Couple of thing...17 intelligence agencies confirmed it was Russia..Russia all but bragged it was them..They were popping bottles Champaign post Trump victory..

markvmc
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12/18/2016  8:38 PM
Has anyone seen any actual evidence that it was Russia?
holfresh
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12/18/2016  9:07 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/18/2016  9:08 PM
markvmc wrote:Has anyone seen any actual evidence that it was Russia?

Would you know how to recognize a hack by a specific entity if you were offered evidence?

markvmc
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12/18/2016  9:27 PM
holfresh wrote:
markvmc wrote:Has anyone seen any actual evidence that it was Russia?

Would you know how to recognize a hack by a specific entity if you were offered evidence?

No, but others who could, for example, write articles or appear on tv, to explain what happened, could. By way of comparison, I also couldn't recognize predatory financial mortgage manipulations, but I know that others can, and they can explain the evidence to me on tv/in the paper. In a way that picks up on actual evidence, as opposed to suspicion.

I'm committed to apportioning belief to the evidence. That's been the overall trend in this thread (and it's predecessor) regarding claims that illegals voted, for example. No evidence was forthcoming, so, rightly, people didn't accept those claims. But now the shoe is on the other foot. There are abundant claims, and lots of circumstantial evidence that Russia hacked into the Democrat's server, but there's no actual evidence. So why should we believe it? The CIA said so, of course, but it's not like they've been the guardians of honesty in the past. If it served some realpolitik interest they perceived, of course they would lie.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying Russia isn't behind this. They have interests that conflict with ours, and I'm sure they aren't squeamish about their methods, no more than are we. I'm just saying, if we're going to apportion our beliefs to the evidence, there hasn't been any.

holfresh
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12/18/2016  9:36 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/18/2016  9:37 PM
markvmc wrote:
holfresh wrote:
markvmc wrote:Has anyone seen any actual evidence that it was Russia?

Would you know how to recognize a hack by a specific entity if you were offered evidence?

No, but others who could, for example, write articles or appear on tv, to explain what happened, could. By way of comparison, I also couldn't recognize predatory financial mortgage manipulations, but I know that others can, and they can explain the evidence to me on tv/in the paper. In a way that picks up on actual evidence, as opposed to suspicion.

I'm committed to apportioning belief to the evidence. That's been the overall trend in this thread (and it's predecessor) regarding claims that illegals voted, for example. No evidence was forthcoming, so, rightly, people didn't accept those claims. But now the shoe is on the other foot. There are abundant claims, and lots of circumstantial evidence that Russia hacked into the Democrat's server, but there's no actual evidence. So why should we believe it? The CIA said so, of course, but it's not like they've been the guardians of honesty in the past. If it served some realpolitik interest they perceived, of course they would lie.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying Russia isn't behind this. They have interests that conflict with ours, and I'm sure they aren't squeamish about their methods, no more than are we. I'm just saying, if we're going to apportion our beliefs to the evidence, there hasn't been any.

I saw an interview on Friday on CNBC..It was an indepednat cyber security firm, Crowdstrike that first found the hacking..The guy that actually found it said the hack had the same cyber footprints, for lack of a better term, that he recognized to be Russian..He escalated it up to the intelengence agencies..

If I find a link for the on air interview, I'll post...

GustavBahler
Posts: 42797
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12/18/2016  9:53 PM
holfresh wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
A Spy Coup in America?

From Consortium News

As Official Washington's latest "group think" solidifies into certainty -- that Russia used hacked Democratic emails to help elect Donald Trump -- something entirely different may be afoot: a months-long effort by elements of the U.S. intelligence community to determine who becomes the next president.

I was told by a well-placed intelligence source some months ago that senior leaders of the Obama administration's intelligence agencies -- from the CIA to the FBI -- were deeply concerned about either Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump ascending to the presidency. And, it's true that intelligence officials often come to see themselves as the stewards of America's fundamental interests, sometimes needing to protect the country from dangerous passions of the public or from inept or corrupt political leaders.

It was, after all, a senior FBI official, Mark Felt, who -- as "Deep Throat" -- guided The Washington Post's Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein in their Watergate investigation into the criminality of President Richard Nixon. And, I was told by former U.S. intelligence officers that they wanted to block President Jimmy Carter's reelection in 1980 because they viewed him as ineffectual and thus not protecting American global interests.

It's also true that intelligence community sources frequently plant stories in major mainstream publications that serve propaganda or political goals, including stories that can be misleading or entirely false.

What's Going On?

So, what to make of what we have seen over the past several months when there have been a series of leaks and investigations that have damaged both Clinton and Trump -- with some major disclosures coming, overtly and covertly, from the U.S. intelligence community led by CIA Director John Brennan and FBI Director James Comey?

Some sources of damaging disclosures remain mysterious. Clinton's campaign was hobbled by leaked emails from the Democratic National Committee -- showing it undercutting Clinton's chief rival, Sen. Bernie Sanders -- and from her campaign chairman John Podesta -- exposing the content of her speeches to Wall Street banks that she had tried to hide from the voters, and revealing the Clinton Foundation's questionable contacts with foreign governments.

Clinton -- already burdened with a reputation for secrecy and dishonesty -- suffered from the drip, drip, drip of releases from WikiLeaks of the DNC and Podesta emails although it remains unclear who gave the emails to WikiLeaks. Still, the combination of the two email batches added to public suspicions about Clinton and reminded people why they didn't trust her.

But the most crippling blow to Clinton came from FBI Director Comey in the last week of the campaign when he re-opened and then re-closed the investigation into whether she broke the law with her sloppy handling of classified material in her State Department emails funneled through a home server.

Following Comey's last-minute revival of the Clinton email controversy, her poll numbers fell far enough to enable Trump to grab three normally Democratic states -- Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin -- enough to give him a victory in the Electoral College.

Taking Down Trump

However, over the past few weeks, the U.S. intelligence community, led by CIA Director Brennan and seconded by FBI Director Comey, has tried to delegitimize Trump by using leaks to the mainstream U.S. news media to pin the release of the DNC and Podesta emails on Russia and claiming that Russian President Vladimir Putin was personally trying to put Trump into the White House.

Russian President Vladimir Putin during a state visit to Austria on June 24, 2014.Russian President Vladimir Putin during a state visit to Austria on June 24, 2014.
(image by (Official Russian government photo)) License DMCA Details
This remarkable series of assessments from the CIA -- now endorsed by the leadership of the FBI -- come on the eve of the Electoral College members assembling to cast their formal votes to determine who becomes the new U.S. president. Although the Electoral College process is usually simply a formality, the Russian-hacking claims made by the U.S. intelligence community have raised the possibility that enough electors might withhold their votes from Trump to deny him the presidency.

A Spy Coup in America?

If on Monday enough Trump electors decide to cast their votes for someone else -- possibly another Republican -- the presidential selection could go to the House of Representatives where, conceivably, the Republican-controlled chamber could choose someone other than Trump.

In other words, there is an arguable scenario in which the U.S. intelligence community first undercut Clinton and, secondly, Trump, seeking -- however unlikely -- to get someone installed in the White House considered more suitable to the CIA's and the FBI's views of what's good for the country.

Who Did the Leaking?

At the center of this controversy is the question of who leaked or hacked the DNC and Podesta emails. The CIA has planted the story in The Washington Post, The New York Times and other mainstream outlets that it was Russia that hacked both the DNC and Podesta emails and slipped the material to WikiLeaks with the goal of assisting the Trump campaign. The suggestion is that Trump is Putin's "puppet," just as Hillary Clinton alleged during the third presidential debate.

But WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange has publicly denied that Russia was the source of the leaks and one of his associates, former British Ambassador to Uzbekistan Craig Murray, has suggested that the DNC leak came from a "disgruntled" Democrat upset with the DNC's sandbagging of the Sanders campaign and that the Podesta leak came from the U.S. intelligence community.

Although Assange recently has sought to muzzle Murray's public comments -- out of apparent concern for protecting the identity of sources -- Murray offered possibly his most expansive account of the sourcing during a podcast interview with Scott Horton on Dec. 13.


Murray, who became a whistleblower himself when he protested Britain's tolerance of human rights abuses in Uzbekistan, explained that he consults with Assange and cooperates with WikiLeaks "without being a formal member of the structure."

But he appears to have undertaken a mission for WikiLeaks to contact one of the sources (or a representative) during a Sept. 25 visit to Washington where he says he met with a person in a wooded area of American University. At the time, Murray was at American University participating in an awards ceremony for former CIA officer John Kiriakou who was being honored by a group of former Western intelligence officials, the Sam Adams Associates, named for the late Vietnam War-era CIA analyst and whistleblower Sam Adams.

Former CIA analyst Ray McGovern, a founder of the Sam Adams group, told me that Murray was "m-c-ing" the event but then slipped away, skipping a reception that followed the award ceremony.

Reading Between Lines

Though Murray has declined to say exactly what the meeting in the woods was about, he may have been passing along messages about ways to protect the source from possible retaliation, maybe even an extraction plan if the source was in some legal or physical danger.

Murray has disputed a report in London's Daily Mail that he was receiving a batch of the leaked Democratic emails. "The material, I think, was already safely with WikiLeaks before I got there in September," Murray said in the interview with Scott Horton. "I had a small role to play."

Murray also suggested that the DNC leak and the Podesta leak came from two different sources, neither of them the Russian government.

"The Podesta emails and the DNC emails are, of course, two separate things and we shouldn't conclude that they both have the same source," Murray said. "In both cases we're talking of a leak, not a hack, in that the person who was responsible for getting that information out had legal access to that information."

A Spy Coup in America?

Reading between the lines of the interview, one could interpret Murray's comments as suggesting that the DNC leak came from a Democratic source and that the Podesta leak came from someone inside the U.S. intelligence community, which may have been monitoring John Podesta's emails because the Podesta Group, which he founded with his brother Tony, served as a registered "foreign agent" for Saudi Arabia.

"John Podesta was a paid lobbyist for the Saudi government," Murray noted. "If the American security services were not watching the communications of the Saudi government's paid lobbyist in Washington, then the American security services would not be doing their job. ... His communications are going to be of interest to a great number of other security services as well."

Leak by Americans

Scott Horton then asked, "Is it fair to say that you're saying that the Podesta leak came from inside the intelligence services, NSA [the electronic spying National Security Agency] or another agency?"

"I think what I said was certainly compatible with that kind of interpretation, yeah," Murray responded. "In both cases they are leaks by Americans."

In reference to the leak of the DNC emails, Murray noted that "Julian Assange took very close interest in the death of Seth Rich, the Democratic staff member" who had worked for the DNC on voter databases and was shot and killed on July 10 near his Washington, D.C., home.

Murray continued, "WikiLeaks offered a $20,000 reward for information leading to the capture of his killers. So, obviously there are suspicions there about what's happening and things are somewhat murky. I'm not saying -- don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying that he was the source of the [DNC] leaks. What I'm saying is that it's probably not an unfair indication to draw that WikiLeaks believes that he may have been killed by someone who thought he was the source of the leaks ... whether correctly or incorrectly."

Though acknowledging that such killings can become grist for conspiracy buffs, Murray added: "But people do die over this sort of stuff. There were billions of dollars -- literally billions of dollars -- behind Hillary Clinton's election campaign and those people have lost their money.

"You have also to remember that there's a big financial interest -- particularly in the armaments industry -- in a bad American relationship with Russia and the worse the relationship with Russia is the larger contracts the armaments industry can expect especially in the most high-tech high-profit side of fighter jets and missiles and that kind of thing.

"And Trump has actually already indicated he's looking to make savings on the defense budget particularly in things like fighter [jet] projects. So, there are people standing to lose billions of dollars and anybody who thinks in that situation bad things don't happen to people is very naive."

An Intelligence Coup?

There's another possibility in play here: that the U.S. intelligence community is felling a number of birds with one stone. If indeed U.S. intelligence bigwigs deemed both Clinton and Trump unfit to serve as President -- albeit for different reasons -- they could have become involved in leaking at least the Podesta emails to weaken Clinton's campaign, setting the candidate up for the more severe blow from FBI Director Comey in the last week of the campaign.

Further, the Russia-bashing that is all the rage in the mainstream U.S. media will surely encourage the Congress to escalate the New Cold War, regardless of Trump's desires, and thus ensure plenty more money for both the intelligence agencies and the military contractors.Then, by blaming the leaks on Russian President Putin, the U.S. intelligence leadership could set the stage for Trump's defeat in the Electoral College, opening the door to the elevation of a more traditional Republican. However, even if that unlikely event -- defeating Trump in the Electoral College -- proves impossible, Trump would at least be weakened as he enters the White House and thus might not be able to move very aggressively toward a de'tente with Russia.

Official Washington's "group think" holding Russia responsible for the Clinton leaks does draw some logical support from the near certainty that Russian intelligence has sought to penetrate information sources around both Clinton and Trump. But the gap between the likely Russian hacking efforts and the question of who gave the email information to WikiLeaks is where mainstream assumptions may fall down.

As ex-Ambassador Murray has said, U.S. intelligence was almost surely keeping tabs on Podesta's communications because of his ties to Saudi Arabia and other foreign governments. So, the U.S. intelligence community represents another suspect in the case of who leaked those emails to WikiLeaks. It would be a smart play, reminiscent of the convoluted spy tales of John LeCarre', if U.S. intelligence officials sought to cover their own tracks by shifting suspicions onto the Russians.


But just the suspicion of the CIA joining the FBI and possibly other U.S. intelligence agencies to intervene in the American people's choice of a president would cause President Harry Truman, who launched the CIA with prohibitions against it engaging in domestic activities, and Sen. Frank Church, who investigated the CIA's abuses, to spin in their graves.

http://www.consortiumnews.com
Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories in the 1980s for the Associated Press and Newsweek. His latest book, Secrecy & Privilege: Rise of the Bush Dynasty from Watergate to Iraq, can be ordered at secrecyandprivilege.com. It's also available at
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Couple of thing...17 intelligence agencies confirmed it was Russia..Russia all but bragged it was them..They were popping bottles Champaign post Trump victory..

"Slam Dunk"?

nixluva
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12/18/2016  9:54 PM
holfresh wrote:
markvmc wrote:
holfresh wrote:
markvmc wrote:Has anyone seen any actual evidence that it was Russia?

Would you know how to recognize a hack by a specific entity if you were offered evidence?

No, but others who could, for example, write articles or appear on tv, to explain what happened, could. By way of comparison, I also couldn't recognize predatory financial mortgage manipulations, but I know that others can, and they can explain the evidence to me on tv/in the paper. In a way that picks up on actual evidence, as opposed to suspicion.

I'm committed to apportioning belief to the evidence. That's been the overall trend in this thread (and it's predecessor) regarding claims that illegals voted, for example. No evidence was forthcoming, so, rightly, people didn't accept those claims. But now the shoe is on the other foot. There are abundant claims, and lots of circumstantial evidence that Russia hacked into the Democrat's server, but there's no actual evidence. So why should we believe it? The CIA said so, of course, but it's not like they've been the guardians of honesty in the past. If it served some realpolitik interest they perceived, of course they would lie.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying Russia isn't behind this. They have interests that conflict with ours, and I'm sure they aren't squeamish about their methods, no more than are we. I'm just saying, if we're going to apportion our beliefs to the evidence, there hasn't been any.

I saw an interview on Friday on CNBC..It was an indepednat cyber security firm, Crowdstrike that first found the hacking..The guy that actually found it said the hack had the same cyber footprints, for lack of a better term, that he recognized to be Russian..He escalated it up to the intelengence agencies..

If I find a link for the on air interview, I'll post...

I heard someone say that CrowdStrike saw the Russian Hackers STILL IN THE SYSTEM when they came on board. That's pretty interesting and I'm sure that helped them to further pinpoint who the hackers were.

OT: Politics Thread

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