Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

sebstar wrote:

dk7th wrote:
26-54
31-47
32-47
35-47
42-38
28-26

those teams he played with in the first few years of his career were awful. The point remains that Felton was the PG for the Bobcats first winning record, and playoff appearance in franchise history, and was a favorite of coach larry brown. The knicks record with Felton at the helm has been great.

see what you did there? it's called a red herring. you do this a lot. and then you get on a roll with said red herring:

"Kidd is wonderful as a specialist, role player --- but as a featured pg? A liability. He cant put pressure on a defense, nor make things happen as an athlete anymore at his age, which hurts the effectiveness of his teammates. Anyone who watches knows as much."

this part about hurting the effectiveness of teammates because he lacks athleticism is another red herring. what about the positive ways he affects those same teammates with his skills and savvy?

Like many things that you invoke but arent smart enough to fully conceptualize, you dont know what red herring means because you are misapplying. I was providing support for my argument, not trying to radically take the convo into a different direction with misleading info. SMH

but then you just can't help yourself and continue hammering an empty point home:

"Efficiency often rewards those who do less, not impact the game more."

says who? this is an unfounded assertion which you try to qualify with "often." not going to fly.

Perhaps if you werent so obsessed with butchering the logic fallacy red herring, you might have been able to recognize that Jason Kidd's efficiency rating was part and parcel to that argument. Kidd is not a top 3 pg, as reasonable person can attest, but he is rewarded for his limited output in that metric.

and then you finish with personal opinions masquerading as fact. basically you are saying that you see the game a certain way and that's that. i'll break it down for you:

"Feltons aggressive play," is a euphemism for rash and reckless.

"and decent shooting for a PG the most important position," 39.6% FG is not close to decent

"stresses the defense w/ consistent pressure." nonsense. defenses sag off because they want him to shoot, broken hands or no broken hands. again, the last 5 games he shot 15-20 times a game.

"As a legit offensive threat, the d is on their heels," now you repeat this falsehood to set up another false conclusion:

"which has a positive effect on Melo and the team as a whole." if only he actually distributed the ball properly. so, no... wrong again.

"Even when he misses, its potentially a positive as a cumulative effect (and direct effect w/ an offensive rebound)." LOL

"The formula for success with him as pg works, but it doesnt show up on a sheet sometimes." yeah tell me about it.

My personal opinions are reflected both qualitatively and quantitatively. The shooting percentage % for both Melo and Tyson have dropped in Felton's absence. Again, Felton's struggles with % are directly attributed to devastating hand injuries, yet you keep regurgitating his shooting stat. Any idiot that watches the games can tell that the offense is struggling w/o Felton's penetration and consistent threat on offense. God, I feel like Im talking to children here.

correct me if i am wrong but did bonn or anybody mention that kidd is a point guard? that is YOUR invention, to put it charitably, having ZERO to do with the discussion of felton as point guard. if nobody but you raised this then it. is. a. red. herring.

kidd's efficiency was part and parcel to YOUR premise of speaking about him as a point guard. can't believe you can come up with this tripe with a straight face.

chandler 62% down from around 70%
melo 42.3% down from 47%

while this is factually the case, you are assuming that felton's absence is the reason for this. maybe you have a point with chandler because felton likes alley-ooping. i'll grant you that one.

with melo, however, in spite of repeating the same unfounded points about felton, it is in fact melo's OWN shot selection that has caused his numbers to go down. why? because when felton puts pressure on defenses felton shoots the ball 75% of the time! you can't lose what you never had.

If I may interject my two cents...Bonn has stated many times in this forum and probably this very thread that JKidd is the best PG on this team...

I still think he is but we would need a healthy play-making SG to pair him with.

One who can play the role of a PG?

No. Are Harden, Wade, and Kobe PGs? You don't need anything that outstanding but something better than White.

Well nice try...Kidd is done as a PG...We see it nightly...Funny thing tho...He seems to thrive with Felton getting him easy looks off the ball...But that might result in you giving Felton credit so we can't state the obvious...So lets reach for Kobe and Harden...Lots of people can look good next the Kobe and Wade...Question is can he stand on his own at this stage in his career???...Doesn't look like it but it's early...

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:Red herring is an English-language idiom that commonly refers to a type of logical fallacy in which a clue is intentionally or unintentionally misleading or distracting from the actual issue.

Leave it to you to create a red herring while trying to define a red herring. Unbelievable stuff.

@ holfresh i can understand what bonn is saying here, if true.

kidd actually has the numbers to suggest, "suggest" mind you, that he has been fulfilling some of the responsibilities of point guard, notably the usage rate relative to his assist rate. it is in fact closer to those of a point guard than a shooting guard. meanwhile felton's usage rate relative to his assist rate is closer to those of a shooting guard.

someone here astutely noted that the two of them together make for one decent point guard. props for hat observation whoever that was as i think that is a very reasonable assessment. and i think right now we see that kidd to a very real extent needs felton just as felton needs kidd.

the solution to felton's absence is to start prigioni-- a suggestion several here have made for some time and with which i agree.

How do you draw the conclusion that Felton needs JKidd...What is your evidence...In four games Felton played without Kidd he had decent numbers....Three of the four were good games for Felton...Knicks won three of four...Felton in his previous stint with the Knicks thrived without JKidd...So what is the basis for your assessment??

ESPN and Charles Barkley was giving JKidd all the credit for the Knicks' early success...Are u in that camp too??

thrived in his previous incarnation, being 28-26 with a different team altogether with only stat as the holdover. ok i guess you can say that. honestly i didn't much like his game then either. same game as he has now. "thrive" is not a term i would use.

and can we look at the opponents here?

in a loss to brooklyn he goes 3-19. striving with superior point guards like williams is a big flaw with him. brooklyn was 9-4 at the time, same record as the knicks.

milwaukee 7-6 where novak goes 7-10. i don't remember this game too well but it was apparently a blowout by the middle of the 3rd.

washington 1-13

phoenix 7-11 i remember this game for the dirty foul smith got away with on dragic on a breakaway.

you see the pattern here? felton is doing well against decidedly inferior opponents. my sole focus is how felton performs against true rivals and better teams.

so far as barkley i am a fan guilty as charged. he has been spot on too many times for me to dismiss him as a clown. one obvious example was his critique of nowitzki not having a legit post game. and at the risk of infuriating others, i also thought jon barry was a good analyst. it looks like he grated on many among the fanbase cause he lost that studio gig.

i don't agree with barkley that the knicks are a first round exit. that goes too far. right now the knicks look like a tough out in the second round and not much more than that.

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

sebstar wrote:

dk7th wrote:
26-54
31-47
32-47
35-47
42-38
28-26

those teams he played with in the first few years of his career were awful. The point remains that Felton was the PG for the Bobcats first winning record, and playoff appearance in franchise history, and was a favorite of coach larry brown. The knicks record with Felton at the helm has been great.

see what you did there? it's called a red herring. you do this a lot. and then you get on a roll with said red herring:

"Kidd is wonderful as a specialist, role player --- but as a featured pg? A liability. He cant put pressure on a defense, nor make things happen as an athlete anymore at his age, which hurts the effectiveness of his teammates. Anyone who watches knows as much."

this part about hurting the effectiveness of teammates because he lacks athleticism is another red herring. what about the positive ways he affects those same teammates with his skills and savvy?

Like many things that you invoke but arent smart enough to fully conceptualize, you dont know what red herring means because you are misapplying. I was providing support for my argument, not trying to radically take the convo into a different direction with misleading info. SMH

but then you just can't help yourself and continue hammering an empty point home:

"Efficiency often rewards those who do less, not impact the game more."

says who? this is an unfounded assertion which you try to qualify with "often." not going to fly.

Perhaps if you werent so obsessed with butchering the logic fallacy red herring, you might have been able to recognize that Jason Kidd's efficiency rating was part and parcel to that argument. Kidd is not a top 3 pg, as reasonable person can attest, but he is rewarded for his limited output in that metric.

and then you finish with personal opinions masquerading as fact. basically you are saying that you see the game a certain way and that's that. i'll break it down for you:

"Feltons aggressive play," is a euphemism for rash and reckless.

"and decent shooting for a PG the most important position," 39.6% FG is not close to decent

"stresses the defense w/ consistent pressure." nonsense. defenses sag off because they want him to shoot, broken hands or no broken hands. again, the last 5 games he shot 15-20 times a game.

"As a legit offensive threat, the d is on their heels," now you repeat this falsehood to set up another false conclusion:

"which has a positive effect on Melo and the team as a whole." if only he actually distributed the ball properly. so, no... wrong again.

"Even when he misses, its potentially a positive as a cumulative effect (and direct effect w/ an offensive rebound)." LOL

"The formula for success with him as pg works, but it doesnt show up on a sheet sometimes." yeah tell me about it.

My personal opinions are reflected both qualitatively and quantitatively. The shooting percentage % for both Melo and Tyson have dropped in Felton's absence. Again, Felton's struggles with % are directly attributed to devastating hand injuries, yet you keep regurgitating his shooting stat. Any idiot that watches the games can tell that the offense is struggling w/o Felton's penetration and consistent threat on offense. God, I feel like Im talking to children here.

correct me if i am wrong but did bonn or anybody mention that kidd is a point guard? that is YOUR invention, to put it charitably, having ZERO to do with the discussion of felton as point guard. if nobody but you raised this then it. is. a. red. herring.

kidd's efficiency was part and parcel to YOUR premise of speaking about him as a point guard. can't believe you can come up with this tripe with a straight face.

chandler 62% down from around 70%
melo 42.3% down from 47%

while this is factually the case, you are assuming that felton's absence is the reason for this. maybe you have a point with chandler because felton likes alley-ooping. i'll grant you that one.

with melo, however, in spite of repeating the same unfounded points about felton, it is in fact melo's OWN shot selection that has caused his numbers to go down. why? because when felton puts pressure on defenses felton shoots the ball 75% of the time! you can't lose what you never had.

If I may interject my two cents...Bonn has stated many times in this forum and probably this very thread that JKidd is the best PG on this team...

I still think he is but we would need a healthy play-making SG to pair him with.

One who can play the role of a PG?

No. Are Harden, Wade, and Kobe PGs? You don't need anything that outstanding but something better than White.

Well nice try...Kidd is done as a PG...We see it nightly...Funny thing tho...He seems to thrive with Felton getting him easy looks off the ball...But that might result in you giving Felton credit so we can't state the obvious...So lets reach for Kobe and Harden...Lots of people can look good next the Kobe and Wade...Question is can he stand on his own at this stage in his career???...Doesn't look like it but it's early...

Someone like Iggy or Reddick would be fine.
Felton's passing is average. So of course at times he is going to be getting players good looks - far better looks than White or anyone else will get Kidd. It's not surprising Kidd's play went down.
I think the difference between us is that I want a championship team, whereas you said you'd be ecstatic if we lost in the finals and you were ecstatic when we won 20 of our first 28 regular season games. If you have lower standards than I do, you'll be fine with Felton as your PG.

No the difference between you and me is that you root for the individuals and I root for the team...If your favorite players are traded...You pout and rail against their replacement in Felton and Melo...You were perfectly happy to settle with a .500 team as long as your favorite coach MDA, Gallo and Lin are involved...Now, only a Championship is acceptable...I'm here for the journey with the best players we could put on the court ...U should recognize its is because of the play of Melo and Felton, coaching of Woody that u could now hold such standards...

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

sebstar wrote:

dk7th wrote:
26-54
31-47
32-47
35-47
42-38
28-26

those teams he played with in the first few years of his career were awful. The point remains that Felton was the PG for the Bobcats first winning record, and playoff appearance in franchise history, and was a favorite of coach larry brown. The knicks record with Felton at the helm has been great.

see what you did there? it's called a red herring. you do this a lot. and then you get on a roll with said red herring:

"Kidd is wonderful as a specialist, role player --- but as a featured pg? A liability. He cant put pressure on a defense, nor make things happen as an athlete anymore at his age, which hurts the effectiveness of his teammates. Anyone who watches knows as much."

this part about hurting the effectiveness of teammates because he lacks athleticism is another red herring. what about the positive ways he affects those same teammates with his skills and savvy?

Like many things that you invoke but arent smart enough to fully conceptualize, you dont know what red herring means because you are misapplying. I was providing support for my argument, not trying to radically take the convo into a different direction with misleading info. SMH

but then you just can't help yourself and continue hammering an empty point home:

"Efficiency often rewards those who do less, not impact the game more."

says who? this is an unfounded assertion which you try to qualify with "often." not going to fly.

Perhaps if you werent so obsessed with butchering the logic fallacy red herring, you might have been able to recognize that Jason Kidd's efficiency rating was part and parcel to that argument. Kidd is not a top 3 pg, as reasonable person can attest, but he is rewarded for his limited output in that metric.

and then you finish with personal opinions masquerading as fact. basically you are saying that you see the game a certain way and that's that. i'll break it down for you:

"Feltons aggressive play," is a euphemism for rash and reckless.

"and decent shooting for a PG the most important position," 39.6% FG is not close to decent

"stresses the defense w/ consistent pressure." nonsense. defenses sag off because they want him to shoot, broken hands or no broken hands. again, the last 5 games he shot 15-20 times a game.

"As a legit offensive threat, the d is on their heels," now you repeat this falsehood to set up another false conclusion:

"which has a positive effect on Melo and the team as a whole." if only he actually distributed the ball properly. so, no... wrong again.

"Even when he misses, its potentially a positive as a cumulative effect (and direct effect w/ an offensive rebound)." LOL

"The formula for success with him as pg works, but it doesnt show up on a sheet sometimes." yeah tell me about it.

My personal opinions are reflected both qualitatively and quantitatively. The shooting percentage % for both Melo and Tyson have dropped in Felton's absence. Again, Felton's struggles with % are directly attributed to devastating hand injuries, yet you keep regurgitating his shooting stat. Any idiot that watches the games can tell that the offense is struggling w/o Felton's penetration and consistent threat on offense. God, I feel like Im talking to children here.

correct me if i am wrong but did bonn or anybody mention that kidd is a point guard? that is YOUR invention, to put it charitably, having ZERO to do with the discussion of felton as point guard. if nobody but you raised this then it. is. a. red. herring.

kidd's efficiency was part and parcel to YOUR premise of speaking about him as a point guard. can't believe you can come up with this tripe with a straight face.

chandler 62% down from around 70%
melo 42.3% down from 47%

while this is factually the case, you are assuming that felton's absence is the reason for this. maybe you have a point with chandler because felton likes alley-ooping. i'll grant you that one.

with melo, however, in spite of repeating the same unfounded points about felton, it is in fact melo's OWN shot selection that has caused his numbers to go down. why? because when felton puts pressure on defenses felton shoots the ball 75% of the time! you can't lose what you never had.

If I may interject my two cents...Bonn has stated many times in this forum and probably this very thread that JKidd is the best PG on this team...

I still think he is but we would need a healthy play-making SG to pair him with.

One who can play the role of a PG?

No. Are Harden, Wade, and Kobe PGs? You don't need anything that outstanding but something better than White.

Well nice try...Kidd is done as a PG...We see it nightly...Funny thing tho...He seems to thrive with Felton getting him easy looks off the ball...But that might result in you giving Felton credit so we can't state the obvious...So lets reach for Kobe and Harden...Lots of people can look good next the Kobe and Wade...Question is can he stand on his own at this stage in his career???...Doesn't look like it but it's early...

Someone like Iggy or Reddick would be fine.
Felton's passing is average. So of course at times he is going to be getting players good looks - far better looks than White or anyone else will get Kidd. It's not surprising Kidd's play went down.
I think the difference between us is that I want a championship team, whereas you said you'd be ecstatic if we lost in the finals and you were ecstatic when we won 20 of our first 28 regular season games. If you have lower standards than I do, you'll be fine with Felton as your PG.

No the difference between you and me is that you root for the individuals and I root for the team...If your favorite players are traded...You pout and rail against their replacement in Felton and Melo...You were perfectly happy to settle with a .500 team as long as your favorite coach MDA, Gallo and Lin are involved...Now, only a Championship is acceptable...I'm here for the journey with the best players we could put on the court ...U should recognize its is because of the play of Melo and Felton, coaching of Woody that u could now hold such standards...

I wasn't content with the Pre-Melo team. I didn't even like that team. You are making stuff up.

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:Red herring is an English-language idiom that commonly refers to a type of logical fallacy in which a clue is intentionally or unintentionally misleading or distracting from the actual issue.

Leave it to you to create a red herring while trying to define a red herring. Unbelievable stuff.

@ holfresh i can understand what bonn is saying here, if true.

kidd actually has the numbers to suggest, "suggest" mind you, that he has been fulfilling some of the responsibilities of point guard, notably the usage rate relative to his assist rate. it is in fact closer to those of a point guard than a shooting guard. meanwhile felton's usage rate relative to his assist rate is closer to those of a shooting guard.

someone here astutely noted that the two of them together make for one decent point guard. props for hat observation whoever that was as i think that is a very reasonable assessment. and i think right now we see that kidd to a very real extent needs felton just as felton needs kidd.

the solution to felton's absence is to start prigioni-- a suggestion several here have made for some time and with which i agree.

How do you draw the conclusion that Felton needs JKidd...What is your evidence...In four games Felton played without Kidd he had decent numbers....Three of the four were good games for Felton...Knicks won three of four...Felton in his previous stint with the Knicks thrived without JKidd...So what is the basis for your assessment??

ESPN and Charles Barkley was giving JKidd all the credit for the Knicks' early success...Are u in that camp too??

thrived in his previous incarnation, being 28-26 with a different team altogether with only stat as the holdover. ok i guess you can say that. honestly i didn't much like his game then either. same game as he has now. "thrive" is not a term i would use.

and can we look at the opponents here?

in a loss to brooklyn he goes 3-19. striving with superior point guards like williams is a big flaw with him. brooklyn was 9-4 at the time, same record as the knicks.

milwaukee 7-6 where novak goes 7-10. i don't remember this game too well but it was apparently a blowout by the middle of the 3rd.

washington 1-13

phoenix 7-11 i remember this game for the dirty foul smith got away with on dragic on a breakaway.

you see the pattern here? felton is doing well against decidedly inferior opponents. my sole focus is how felton performs against true rivals and better teams.

so far as barkley i am a fan guilty as charged. he has been spot on too many times for me to dismiss him as a clown. one obvious example was his critique of nowitzki not having a legit post game. and at the risk of infuriating others, i also thought jon barry was a good analyst. it looks like he grated on many among the fanbase cause he lost that studio gig.

i don't agree with barkley that the knicks are a first round exit. that goes too far. right now the knicks look like a tough out in the second round and not much more than that.

So you have zero evidence that Felton needs Kidd...

evidence? against inferior competition in a 3 game stretch in the regular season yes felton did okay i guess. beyond that he needs kidd if the knicks are going to do well against real competition in the playoffs.

my evidence as such is that felton is a sub-par orchestrator as his usage to assist rate demonstrates-- beyond the eye test of course.

loweyecue wrote:When is Felton due back? Any updates on his recovery so far?

Sounds like another month. This team needs his penetration moves into the paint. We don't have a guard on the roster that can break a team down like that. Pablo will do it, but pass it out when he gets an open layup. Felton is more aggressive at scoring, which opens the floor for others. His main problem is that he tries too hard to take over the scoring load whenever Melo is out. This team really needs a healthy Felton if we plan on moving forward.

blkexec wrote:

loweyecue wrote:When is Felton due back? Any updates on his recovery so far?

Sounds like another month. This team needs his penetration moves into the paint. We don't have a guard on the roster that can break a team down like that. Pablo will do it, but pass it out when he gets an open layup. Felton is more aggressive at scoring, which opens the floor for others. His main problem is that he tries too hard to take over the scoring load whenever Melo is out. This team really needs a healthy Felton if we plan on moving forward.

No way. Time table was 4-6 weeks. Late Jan makes it 4 weeks. He said he plans on playing late Jan

blkexec wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

blkexec wrote:

loweyecue wrote:When is Felton due back? Any updates on his recovery so far?

Sounds like another month. This team needs his penetration moves into the paint. We don't have a guard on the roster that can break a team down like that. Pablo will do it, but pass it out when he gets an open layup. Felton is more aggressive at scoring, which opens the floor for others. His main problem is that he tries too hard to take over the scoring load whenever Melo is out. This team really needs a healthy Felton if we plan on moving forward.

No way. Time table was 4-6 weeks. Late Jan makes it 4 weeks. He said he plans on playing late Jan

http://theknickswall.com/2013/01/14/raymond-felton-at-month/

Anji wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:We really do miss felton which is really sad and shows how weak we are at PG.

Hopefully he heard about Clyde's comment and comes back with a chip on his shoulder.

When he said he was an allstar??!!

We all heard him say "if your hands are hurt why do you keep shooting"

We all love and respect Clyde and I am sure that one really stung Felton who has pride.

Let's see what he does with it. If he can reduce his attempts significantly, that would make a tremendous difference in his game. He also may have to start to actually pass off open shots when the defense dares him to shoot (Rondo can and so can he).

He is probably worth what we paid him, perhaps he wants to prove he is actually worth more than his price tag.

Anji wrote:Clyde has giving Felton more praise than that one commit you guys want to cling to.

But to the point of the one comment, his hands won't be hurting, so Clyde doesn't care if he shoots.

Clyde will care if he keeps bricking. Based on his career shooting, his hands mush have severe arthritis.

Clyde must cringe when he misses open men all the time because he is looking to shoot.

misterearl wrote:2

While talking about how the Knicks’ offensive has changed, D’Alessandro spat out, “Raymond Felton gone for at least another month.” So far as I can tell, D’Alessandro is the only one to have reported Felton missing extended time, as most people expect Felton to return in the near future, with Boston being an actual target on the 24th.

If Felton does indeed miss extra time, this is some very concerning news, as the team really misses him. Without Felton, penetration dies, which leads the Knicks to fall back on isolation plays for Melo and J.R. Smith. While both guys can have near-perfect nights, relying on Carmelo Anthony and/or J.R. Smith to go ISO for most of the team’s offense is a recipe for disaster.

- TheKnicksWall

And we heave a coach named Woody.....ah the irony