holfresh wrote:How many times have I disagreed with your assessment that Melo should play the four and now u are agreeing my point of view is BS???...U and I have been back and forth on this..

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:How many times have I disagreed with your assessment that Melo should play the four and now u are agreeing my point of view is BS???...U and I have been back and forth on this..

What did you mean when you said Melo plus 4 won't work? I thought you were saying a team built around Melo with 4 other starters won't work. Did "plus 4" somehow refer to the PF spot? I didn't interpret your comment as having anything to do with playing power forward.

I meant Melo plus 4 meaning Melo shooting and 4 others watching which is what would happen if Amare isnt on the floor..

This game showed me exactly why I did not want to play the Heat in rd. 1

It was a total embarrassment as a fan to watch this game and quite frankly I think we stand no chance. The refs are set to crown the Heat as ECF Champs and overall we cannot compete with Wade and Lebron at full playoff intensity.

Hopefully we will see some adjustments that make this more competitive but we looked like a joke out there.

nixluva wrote:

y2zipper wrote:In fairness, Woodsons still an interim coach. His job comig in was to get guys to play with more effort, and he's doing that. There's no system because Woodson hasn't had any time to put one in.

DUDE DOESN'T HAVE A SYSTEM! This is an established fact about Woody. Why do you think they gave him the ISO Joe moniker? He got swept out of the playoffs in 2 consecutive years and refused to change, even tho the management begged him to. That's why he got fired. He's not a bad regular season coach, but in terms of him showing any kind of offensive chops, he's really not shown anything of note during his entire coaching career. He did break out some old MDA stuff in a couple of the last games where they spread the floor and used more PnR. Aside from that it's been pretty basic stuff as he did in ATL. You can go and try to find something about him offensively but you'll only find complaints about his lack of creativity.

It's real simple. Woody has to find a good balance with this team. It's not easy given the lack of capable PG play, but it's also not rocket science. There has to be good player and ball movement and then you can keep everyone in the flow. They need to get the ball up the floor faster so that they have more time to work to get a good shot as opposed to less time. The Heat use the shot clock against you if you walk it up and give yourself less time to work with.

And without a PG how should they get the ball up the court quickly I ask?

Oh right, you suggested that they should be throwing it up the court instead of dribbling up the court since BD can't get it up.

BRILLIANT!!

nixluva wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

y2zipper wrote:In fairness, Woodsons still an interim coach. His job comig in was to get guys to play with more effort, and he's doing that. There's no system because Woodson hasn't had any time to put one in.

DUDE DOESN'T HAVE A SYSTEM! This is an established fact about Woody. Why do you think they gave him the ISO Joe moniker? He got swept out of the playoffs in 2 consecutive years and refused to change, even tho the management begged him to. That's why he got fired. He's not a bad regular season coach, but in terms of him showing any kind of offensive chops, he's really not shown anything of note during his entire coaching career. He did break out some old MDA stuff in a couple of the last games where they spread the floor and used more PnR. Aside from that it's been pretty basic stuff as he did in ATL. You can go and try to find something about him offensively but you'll only find complaints about his lack of creativity.

It's real simple. Woody has to find a good balance with this team. It's not easy given the lack of capable PG play, but it's also not rocket science. There has to be good player and ball movement and then you can keep everyone in the flow. They need to get the ball up the floor faster so that they have more time to work to get a good shot as opposed to less time. The Heat use the shot clock against you if you walk it up and give yourself less time to work with.

And without a PG how should they get the ball up the court quickly I ask?

Oh right, you suggested that they should be throwing it up the court instead of dribbling up the court since BD can't get it up.

BRILLIANT!!

Don't act like I don't know BB and am making some kind of insane comment. You don't have to dribble the ball up court the entire way. We have more than just PG's that are able to handle the ball moving up the floor. You make it sound like the only guys that can bring the ball up are Baron and Bibby. They happen to be slower than just about every other guard and SF we have. Melo, JR & Fields as well as Shump before his injury can handle the ball well enough to push it up court. We don't need Baron to have to bring it up every time at 2 miles an hour. Once you get over half court you can give it back to Baron or Bibby.

They do use those players sometimes and they do get the ball up quicker but then they are not PG's and can't get the ball to our PG once up the court (fast enough) since Miami denies the PG the ball when they don't bring the ball up the floor. Miami ain't dumb!

If Melo brings up the ball, he is out of position in the offense. That is why they don't want that unless they have no choice. JR makes bad decisions once he gets up court and Shump, the same.

Again, how did they do last time WITH LIN in Miami? Trap, Trap, Trap and more TRAP. Adjustments? I don't think so!

You call for picks for Novak ... How would you like these on the ball or off the ball?

Off the ball (ala Ray Allen)? Yeah right!

On the ball? Yeah right!

Maybe you are right and Woodson just needs an offensive coordinator ... there might be some talented ones available - ones who know how to beat Miami in Miami.

nixluva wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

y2zipper wrote:In fairness, Woodsons still an interim coach. His job comig in was to get guys to play with more effort, and he's doing that. There's no system because Woodson hasn't had any time to put one in.

DUDE DOESN'T HAVE A SYSTEM! This is an established fact about Woody. Why do you think they gave him the ISO Joe moniker? He got swept out of the playoffs in 2 consecutive years and refused to change, even tho the management begged him to. That's why he got fired. He's not a bad regular season coach, but in terms of him showing any kind of offensive chops, he's really not shown anything of note during his entire coaching career. He did break out some old MDA stuff in a couple of the last games where they spread the floor and used more PnR. Aside from that it's been pretty basic stuff as he did in ATL. You can go and try to find something about him offensively but you'll only find complaints about his lack of creativity.

It's real simple. Woody has to find a good balance with this team. It's not easy given the lack of capable PG play, but it's also not rocket science. There has to be good player and ball movement and then you can keep everyone in the flow. They need to get the ball up the floor faster so that they have more time to work to get a good shot as opposed to less time. The Heat use the shot clock against you if you walk it up and give yourself less time to work with.

And without a PG how should they get the ball up the court quickly I ask?

Oh right, you suggested that they should be throwing it up the court instead of dribbling up the court since BD can't get it up.

BRILLIANT!!

Don't act like I don't know BB and am making some kind of insane comment. You don't have to dribble the ball up court the entire way. We have more than just PG's that are able to handle the ball moving up the floor. You make it sound like the only guys that can bring the ball up are Baron and Bibby. They happen to be slower than just about every other guard and SF we have. Melo, JR & Fields as well as Shump before his injury can handle the ball well enough to push it up court. We don't need Baron to have to bring it up every time at 2 miles an hour. Once you get over half court you can give it back to Baron or Bibby.

They do use those players sometimes and they do get the ball up quicker but then they are not PG's and can't get the ball to our PG once up the court (fast enough) since Miami denies the PG the ball when they don't bring the ball up the floor. Miami ain't dumb!

If Melo brings up the ball, he is out of position in the offense. That is why they don't want that unless they have no choice. JR makes bad decisions once he gets up court and Shump, the same.

Again, how did they do last time WITH LIN in Miami? Trap, Trap, Trap and more TRAP. Adjustments? I don't think so!

You call for picks for Novak ... How would you like these on the ball or off the ball?

Off the ball (ala Ray Allen)? Yeah right!

On the ball? Yeah right!

Maybe you are right and Woodson just needs an offensive coordinator ... there might be some talented ones available - ones who know how to beat Miami in Miami.

DUDE stop trying to punk me with BB knowledge. You don't know more than I do so stop trying to talk X's and O's. You will lose that battle. You think it's a bad idea to set screens for Novak to get open shots? It's not impossible for PG to come get the ball back after some other guard brings it up. I don't even understand your points, as they sound like excuses more than any kind of legit BB principle.

As for your overall point, you make it sound like you don't think there's anything the Knicks can do against Miami. If you feel the Knicks just can't compete cuz we have Baron and Bibby as our PG's then why even watch the games? There's more to this than having great PG's. This team has options, but didn't really execute well in game 1. The Heat are not 30 points better than the Knicks. You can't really point to any other plays the Knicks ran other than forcing it into Melo repeatedly and unsuccessfully. Woody is the one with the job of preparing his team for the Heat. I'm hoping he does a great job and the Knicks win game 2. Apparently you think Woody has no shot against the Heat.

Your Rain-Man/bias/misguided repetitive talking points are more for your own self indulgence then to bestow knowledge on the rest of us peasants.

I have played PG in organized BB for 25 years. You? You get your knowledge from reading MDA's book? GTFOH!

I did not say they can't do anything against Miami - they played pretty competitive with them their last game. However, when Miami is on, especially in Miami, sometimes there is not much you can do especially without a viable PG. Or is there?

Again, how did they do last time they played in Miami? And, what were the "adjustments"?

You think you are so enlightened with your BB knowledge, I once again implore you to send Woody a note via twitter with your talking points. If they are that good then I am sure he will recognize that and implement them. Please do so quickly so that we have a punchers chance next game.

Perhaps you meant that Novak should be the Picker not the Pickee. Now that would make more sense don't you think?

You think it's a bad idea to set screens for Novak to get open shots?

It's not impossible for PG to come get the ball back after some other guard brings it up.

Did I say it was impossible? Geez - READING COMP 101!!

BasketballJones wrote:

haha - you can't be enjoying this as much as me

loweyecue wrote:

holfresh wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

holfresh wrote:No one, No even the biggest Carmelo Anthiny fans are asking to run exclusively ISO plays ...It's the reason I don't want to see Melo playing the four because that means Amare is on the bench...I would love to see the pick and roll and other options on offense but we don't have a PG to run it on a consistent basis...It's silly for some posters to say don't run the offense thru Carmelo after seeing what he has done making teammates better when the offense is doing what it should..Some posters have their agendas and sit and wait for the Knicks to lose to say see I told u so...They are even get upset when I call them on it...

I'm a big proponent of running the offense trough multiple players...I'm not a proponent of equal opportunity offense where Jeffries gets the same amount of looks as Carmelo if he gets the ball...But no one here is crying for exclusive ISO ball and I don't think the coach is either..But some guys have to take the opportunity to tell us how much better we would be if Lin was running the offense or if we kept Gallo or if MDA was running his three ball offense..

I call BS. You call people Lin lovers and Melo haters and whatever for even suggesting the offense should be run through the point guard and now you post this. Every time the Knicks win a game you go out of your way to taunt people for not wanting to dump the ball to Melo all the time. You have zero credibility.

BS?...You have zero clue of what u are talking about...U can ask MrKnickshot about out back and forth about why I think Melo should not play the 4..It's because I want a two headed offense..How many times have I said we need a PG to get Amare involved...Who was jumping for joy when Amare looked like his old self..Listen, I really don't care, honestly...I don't have the time to go back and prove to u specifically what I have been saying the same all along..

U confuse my hatred for MDA's offense for being a proponent for Carmelo exclusively..To be clear, Im a big fan of running the offense thru Carmelo and Amare..Carmelo more touches obviously...But I think u have to encorporate everything on offense, pick and roll included..If u think that's BS, you haven't been paying attention enough to waht I have been saying to say its BS and really makes no difference to me whatsoever...U along with others have your agendas..

Well, it's hard to follow your position. The large body of your posts are geared towards insulting other people. Then there are posts like this. I mean a few posts ago on this thread you were saying teams win Chips playing ISO and not by playing PnR. Now you are saying you want PnR to be integrated into the offense - obviously! And while that may have been obvious to others it clearly wasn't to me.

My position on offense is simple- we play way too much Melo focused and it gets the rest of the team disinterested on offens and COMPLETELY out of rythm on offense. Woodson rarely calls any plays and we don't have a system. Now this approach can be effective in the regular season as evidenced by our run and his ATL teams before. But when you go up against great defensive teams like the Heat/ Bulls then it gets exposed quickly and then you can't turn around and ask the role players to step it up. THAT is what makes it unfair IMO. You can't run an offense where the ball only goes to two people game after game after game and then ask for the role players to help Melo out with the scoring when faced by the best defenses in the league. Role players don't have offensive games that can be turned on like a light switch. Woody seems to think they do. Based on your posts I still don't know whether you agree with Woody on that or not.

I don't consider my position an agenda, clearly you do. And I started threads posting this after we beat the Pacers two in a row so I don't come out saying this only when the Knicks lose. And no I am not arguing about whether Melo should be playing SF or PF, I think we agree he should play SF and Anare should play PF.

My intent really isn't to insult anyone and don't want to come across that way...True, I used to get caught up in debates where anything goes but I thought of it as expressing our own vision or direction of where we all think this team should go...It made the debates fun...But seriously, I agree with Woody in that the offense should flow thru our two best players...Or, our two best players should get a majority of looks on the offensive...I thought it's insane to have Lin determine the amount of touches Melo got which MDA was trying to implement...There were too many nights Amare was getting less shot attempts than Lin...I thought that was crazy...This is a star driven league where you have to get your top players the most opportunities on the offensive end...Equal opportunity offense works well in college but I see more success in the NBA riding your stars...Don't get me wrong and it seems like many do here, that doesn't mean I want Carmelo to take every shot...I think Melo is enough of a talented player who can get everyone involved in the offense with his passing ability...I think Melo should be the guy making those decisions not Lin...That said, Lin is very important as well, he should orchestrate the offense for the rest of the team...It's a relationship that can only be perfected with playing time which they didn't have..I thought MDA went about this the wrong way....

We need Melo and Amare going to be effective...But we also need Lin and Melo to understand their roles which comes with playing time together...So me saying run the offense thru Melo is hoping he can give you what he did over the month of April...The upside for our stars are much greater than that of our role players so we have to tap into that...But at the same time we have to seek balance, getting everyone involved...Not having a consistent PG is killing us and Melo had to dominate the ball to get us into the playoffs...But it's not what I want to see all the time..I want to see more of a team oriented offense flow through Melo and Lin when he gets back...There are times when Melo and STAT has to dominate and there are times when a given team mate can explode...With me, it's not about Melo all the time, where is the fun in that...

Lastly, I do think there are people here with agendas...Those who wants to see Lin excel at all cost, Or Gallo, or MDA for that matter...I, believe or not, just want to win games and want the best payers on my team who can deliver that...My favorite Knick was Chandler, when he was traded for Melo and I wasn't upset because Melo I thought could take us further...I think there are people who don't care about the wins or the progress that Woody has made with this team..They just want their coach on the sidelines and their favorite players in uniform and if we win, gravy...They can't wait for the Knicks lose to say I told u so if their suggestions aren't the current state of affairs...That kills me because I want to win no matter who is helping us win...I wish MDA could have proved me wrong and led this team deep into the playoffs..You would see me here manning up for not believing in MDA...I'm a Giant fan, I manned up with Couglin...It didn't happen so we must move on...Woody has my full support but I think he has fumbled in his first playoff game..Let's see if he makes the necessary adjustments to be competitive...If not, let's look elsewhere...No one individual player or coach is above this team in my opinion...They can all be replaced and Ill be happy when we start winning...So that's my spiel...

holfresh wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

holfresh wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

holfresh wrote:No one, No even the biggest Carmelo Anthiny fans are asking to run exclusively ISO plays ...It's the reason I don't want to see Melo playing the four because that means Amare is on the bench...I would love to see the pick and roll and other options on offense but we don't have a PG to run it on a consistent basis...It's silly for some posters to say don't run the offense thru Carmelo after seeing what he has done making teammates better when the offense is doing what it should..Some posters have their agendas and sit and wait for the Knicks to lose to say see I told u so...They are even get upset when I call them on it...

I'm a big proponent of running the offense trough multiple players...I'm not a proponent of equal opportunity offense where Jeffries gets the same amount of looks as Carmelo if he gets the ball...But no one here is crying for exclusive ISO ball and I don't think the coach is either..But some guys have to take the opportunity to tell us how much better we would be if Lin was running the offense or if we kept Gallo or if MDA was running his three ball offense..

I call BS. You call people Lin lovers and Melo haters and whatever for even suggesting the offense should be run through the point guard and now you post this. Every time the Knicks win a game you go out of your way to taunt people for not wanting to dump the ball to Melo all the time. You have zero credibility.

BS?...You have zero clue of what u are talking about...U can ask MrKnickshot about out back and forth about why I think Melo should not play the 4..It's because I want a two headed offense..How many times have I said we need a PG to get Amare involved...Who was jumping for joy when Amare looked like his old self..Listen, I really don't care, honestly...I don't have the time to go back and prove to u specifically what I have been saying the same all along..

U confuse my hatred for MDA's offense for being a proponent for Carmelo exclusively..To be clear, Im a big fan of running the offense thru Carmelo and Amare..Carmelo more touches obviously...But I think u have to encorporate everything on offense, pick and roll included..If u think that's BS, you haven't been paying attention enough to waht I have been saying to say its BS and really makes no difference to me whatsoever...U along with others have your agendas..

Well, it's hard to follow your position. The large body of your posts are geared towards insulting other people. Then there are posts like this. I mean a few posts ago on this thread you were saying teams win Chips playing ISO and not by playing PnR. Now you are saying you want PnR to be integrated into the offense - obviously! And while that may have been obvious to others it clearly wasn't to me.

My position on offense is simple- we play way too much Melo focused and it gets the rest of the team disinterested on offens and COMPLETELY out of rythm on offense. Woodson rarely calls any plays and we don't have a system. Now this approach can be effective in the regular season as evidenced by our run and his ATL teams before. But when you go up against great defensive teams like the Heat/ Bulls then it gets exposed quickly and then you can't turn around and ask the role players to step it up. THAT is what makes it unfair IMO. You can't run an offense where the ball only goes to two people game after game after game and then ask for the role players to help Melo out with the scoring when faced by the best defenses in the league. Role players don't have offensive games that can be turned on like a light switch. Woody seems to think they do. Based on your posts I still don't know whether you agree with Woody on that or not.

I don't consider my position an agenda, clearly you do. And I started threads posting this after we beat the Pacers two in a row so I don't come out saying this only when the Knicks lose. And no I am not arguing about whether Melo should be playing SF or PF, I think we agree he should play SF and Anare should play PF.

My intent really isn't to insult anyone and don't want to come across that way...True, I used to get caught up in debates where anything goes but I thought of it as expressing our own vision or direction of where we all think this team should go...It made the debates fun...But seriously, I agree with Woody in that the offense should flow thru our two best players...Or, our two best players should get a majority of looks on the offensive...I thought it's insane to have Lin determine the amount of touches Melo got which MDA was trying to implement...There were too many nights Amare was getting less shot attempts than Lin...I thought that was crazy...This is a star driven league where you have to get your top players the most opportunities on the offensive end...Equal opportunity offense works well in college but I see more success in the NBA riding your stars...Don't get me wrong and it seems like many do here, that doesn't mean I want Carmelo to take every shot...I think Melo is enough of a talented player who can get everyone involved in the offense with his passing ability...I think Melo should be the guy making those decisions not Lin...That said, Lin is very important as well, he should orchestrate the offense for the rest of the team...It's a relationship that can only be perfected with playing time which they didn't have..I thought MDA went about this the wrong way....

We need Melo and Amare going to be effective...But we also need Lin and Melo to understand their roles which comes with playing time together...So me saying run the offense thru Melo is hoping he can give you what he did over the month of April...The upside for our stars are much greater than that of our role players so we have to tap into that...But at the same time we have to seek balance, getting everyone involved...Not having a consistent PG is killing us and Melo had to dominate the ball to get us into the playoffs...But it's not what I want to see all the time..I want to see more of a team oriented offense flow through Melo and Lin when he gets back...There are times when Melo and STAT has to dominate and there are times when a given team mate can explode...With me, it's not about Melo all the time, where is the fun in that...

Lastly, I do think there are people here with agendas...Those who wants to see Lin excel at all cost, Or Gallo, or MDA for that matter...I, believe or not, just want to win games and want the best payers on my team who can deliver that...My favorite Knick was Chandler, when he was traded for Melo and I wasn't upset because Melo I thought could take us further...I think there are people who don't care about the wins or the progress that Woody has made with this team..They just want their coach on the sidelines and their favorite players in uniform and if we win, gravy...They can't wait for the Knicks lose to say I told u so if their suggestions aren't the current state of affairs...That kills me because I want to win no matter who is helping us win...I wish MDA could have proved me wrong and led this team deep into the playoffs..You would see me here manning up for not believing in MDA...I'm a Giant fan, I manned up with Couglin...It didn't happen so we must move on...Woody has my full support but I think he has fumbled in his first playoff game..Let's see if he makes the necessary adjustments to be competitive...If not, let's look elsewhere...No one individual player or coach is above this team in my opinion...They can all be replaced and Ill be happy when we start winning...So that's my spiel...

Great post Holfresh....I pretty much agree with everything you've said in the above post. No individual player or coach is above the blue and orange.