HofstraBBall wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

jaydh wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:https://www.si.com/nba/executives-timberwolves-won-karl-anthony-towns-trade-knicks

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://www.twitter.com/ESPNNBA/status/1841930965469233612

So shortsighted these execs are. Again... after the season is over and Randle walks because we can't afford him, how was the team going to fill that gap? This move isn't about this year, it's about the next 4.

Agreed. It’s about the next 4.
Think that was the point of some saying Minny was in a better position.
Cuz KAT will be making $60 in 3 years. Often hurt OG $42 Million? How is that for Cap flexibility?
Hopefully KAT is the one.

I feel much the same way about cap management/flexibility. But I think I've been biased from years and years of Knicks roster and cap mis-management and continual rebuild. Also seems that salary flex is more important for a roster that is still under construction or in build mode (i.e. the Knicks over the past 3-4 years). The moves this off-season have made it clear Leon is going All-In during JB's prime with their top 6-7 players. Some may not be happy with the roster (I am) - but I imagine at some point as a GM you have to just rip the band aid off. Like it or not, we're now in contender mode on a 4 year plan with core guys all still young enough that they won't be ancient at the end of this run. All these core players are also tradeable - so the contingency in case of derailment will be to trade guys for expiring and picks followed by a re-build.

Most of the contending teams the Knicks will face all have similar dilemmas. Celtics will be paying Tatem and Brown a combined $130M+ when they are in their 30s and a 38 year old Holiday will be making over $37M. A 38 year old Paul George will be making $57M with a gimpy 35 year old Embiid likely hitting close to $70M. Lillard at 36 will be over $58M. Siakem at 34 years old will be making over $52M. These examples are the price for going all-in. Even teams that are near contention and a bit more cap flexibility such as the Cavs and Pacers are over the first Apron and will have to make key decisions to avoid the 2nd apron over the next several years. The main team I can come up with who avoided this is OKC - but that was after years of stockpiling picks, striking is rich with SGA coupled with making a few selections near the top over the past 4 years.

Agree with the fact most elite teams are in same situation.
Agree that the Knicks have gone “All in”
Concern is if KAT and an injury prone player is worth that “All in”?
Hoping they are.

Worth it?

IDK if this FO is done or not... but with Mitch easing into team winning a bunch of games there's a CHANCE we hit the postseason with a rotation that looks like Brunson/Mikal/Josh/OG/KAT with MbBride and Mitch being the bench goons.

Imagine we had that squad vs. the Pacers? Shit's a sweep and I would love to see KP trying to chase KAT around while Mikal/OG/Josh crawl up the asses of Tatum and Brown

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

jaydh wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:https://www.si.com/nba/executives-timberwolves-won-karl-anthony-towns-trade-knicks

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://www.twitter.com/ESPNNBA/status/1841930965469233612

So shortsighted these execs are. Again... after the season is over and Randle walks because we can't afford him, how was the team going to fill that gap? This move isn't about this year, it's about the next 4.

Agreed. It’s about the next 4.
Think that was the point of some saying Minny was in a better position.
Cuz KAT will be making $60 in 3 years. Often hurt OG $42 Million? How is that for Cap flexibility?
Hopefully KAT is the one.

I feel much the same way about cap management/flexibility. But I think I've been biased from years and years of Knicks roster and cap mis-management and continual rebuild. Also seems that salary flex is more important for a roster that is still under construction or in build mode (i.e. the Knicks over the past 3-4 years). The moves this off-season have made it clear Leon is going All-In during JB's prime with their top 6-7 players. Some may not be happy with the roster (I am) - but I imagine at some point as a GM you have to just rip the band aid off. Like it or not, we're now in contender mode on a 4 year plan with core guys all still young enough that they won't be ancient at the end of this run. All these core players are also tradeable - so the contingency in case of derailment will be to trade guys for expiring and picks followed by a re-build.

Most of the contending teams the Knicks will face all have similar dilemmas. Celtics will be paying Tatem and Brown a combined $130M+ when they are in their 30s and a 38 year old Holiday will be making over $37M. A 38 year old Paul George will be making $57M with a gimpy 35 year old Embiid likely hitting close to $70M. Lillard at 36 will be over $58M. Siakem at 34 years old will be making over $52M. These examples are the price for going all-in. Even teams that are near contention and a bit more cap flexibility such as the Cavs and Pacers are over the first Apron and will have to make key decisions to avoid the 2nd apron over the next several years. The main team I can come up with who avoided this is OKC - but that was after years of stockpiling picks, striking is rich with SGA coupled with making a few selections near the top over the past 4 years.

Agree with the fact most elite teams are in same situation.
Agree that the Knicks have gone “All in”
Concern is if KAT and an injury prone player is worth that “All in”?
Hoping they are.

Look at Denver. The won a chip. Legit. Amazing stuff right. They do not win it without Murray and Porter JR. Two guys who have missed massive chunks of seasons etc.

Worth it?

IDK if this FO is done or not... but with Mitch easing into team winning a bunch of games there's a CHANCE we hit the postseason with a rotation that looks like Brunson/Mikal/Josh/OG/KAT with MbBride and Mitch being the bench goons.

Imagine we had that squad vs. the Pacers? Shit's a sweep and I would love to see KP trying to chase KAT around while Mikal/OG/Josh crawl up the asses of Tatum and Brown

Still excited to see Brunson and KAT score from all over the floor and Bridges and OG put clamps on the league. DDV would have been a perfect 5th there, but we have options. I think I am gonna love Hart finding KAT for the trailing 3 or Hart rebounding the miss since there will be no one to stop him.

HofstraBBall wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

jaydh wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:https://www.si.com/nba/executives-timberwolves-won-karl-anthony-towns-trade-knicks

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://www.twitter.com/ESPNNBA/status/1841930965469233612

So shortsighted these execs are. Again... after the season is over and Randle walks because we can't afford him, how was the team going to fill that gap? This move isn't about this year, it's about the next 4.

Agreed. It’s about the next 4.
Think that was the point of some saying Minny was in a better position.
Cuz KAT will be making $60 in 3 years. Often hurt OG $42 Million? How is that for Cap flexibility?
Hopefully KAT is the one.

I feel much the same way about cap management/flexibility. But I think I've been biased from years and years of Knicks roster and cap mis-management and continual rebuild. Also seems that salary flex is more important for a roster that is still under construction or in build mode (i.e. the Knicks over the past 3-4 years). The moves this off-season have made it clear Leon is going All-In during JB's prime with their top 6-7 players. Some may not be happy with the roster (I am) - but I imagine at some point as a GM you have to just rip the band aid off. Like it or not, we're now in contender mode on a 4 year plan with core guys all still young enough that they won't be ancient at the end of this run. All these core players are also tradeable - so the contingency in case of derailment will be to trade guys for expiring and picks followed by a re-build.

Most of the contending teams the Knicks will face all have similar dilemmas. Celtics will be paying Tatem and Brown a combined $130M+ when they are in their 30s and a 38 year old Holiday will be making over $37M. A 38 year old Paul George will be making $57M with a gimpy 35 year old Embiid likely hitting close to $70M. Lillard at 36 will be over $58M. Siakem at 34 years old will be making over $52M. These examples are the price for going all-in. Even teams that are near contention and a bit more cap flexibility such as the Cavs and Pacers are over the first Apron and will have to make key decisions to avoid the 2nd apron over the next several years. The main team I can come up with who avoided this is OKC - but that was after years of stockpiling picks, striking is rich with SGA coupled with making a few selections near the top over the past 4 years.

Agree with the fact most elite teams are in same situation.
Agree that the Knicks have gone “All in”
Concern is if KAT and an injury prone player is worth that “All in”?
Hoping they are.

Regarding injuries, IMO all that really matters for contending teams is making the playoffs (regardless of seeding) and core players availability for the playoffs. If they are ravaged like last season, they will have 3 other shots at the it. If there is career impacting injuries, as with any other team, then might have to make decisions to potentially disassemble based on the impacts.

EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

jaydh wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:https://www.si.com/nba/executives-timberwolves-won-karl-anthony-towns-trade-knicks

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://www.twitter.com/ESPNNBA/status/1841930965469233612

So shortsighted these execs are. Again... after the season is over and Randle walks because we can't afford him, how was the team going to fill that gap? This move isn't about this year, it's about the next 4.

Agreed. It’s about the next 4.
Think that was the point of some saying Minny was in a better position.
Cuz KAT will be making $60 in 3 years. Often hurt OG $42 Million? How is that for Cap flexibility?
Hopefully KAT is the one.

I feel much the same way about cap management/flexibility. But I think I've been biased from years and years of Knicks roster and cap mis-management and continual rebuild. Also seems that salary flex is more important for a roster that is still under construction or in build mode (i.e. the Knicks over the past 3-4 years). The moves this off-season have made it clear Leon is going All-In during JB's prime with their top 6-7 players. Some may not be happy with the roster (I am) - but I imagine at some point as a GM you have to just rip the band aid off. Like it or not, we're now in contender mode on a 4 year plan with core guys all still young enough that they won't be ancient at the end of this run. All these core players are also tradeable - so the contingency in case of derailment will be to trade guys for expiring and picks followed by a re-build.

Most of the contending teams the Knicks will face all have similar dilemmas. Celtics will be paying Tatem and Brown a combined $130M+ when they are in their 30s and a 38 year old Holiday will be making over $37M. A 38 year old Paul George will be making $57M with a gimpy 35 year old Embiid likely hitting close to $70M. Lillard at 36 will be over $58M. Siakem at 34 years old will be making over $52M. These examples are the price for going all-in. Even teams that are near contention and a bit more cap flexibility such as the Cavs and Pacers are over the first Apron and will have to make key decisions to avoid the 2nd apron over the next several years. The main team I can come up with who avoided this is OKC - but that was after years of stockpiling picks, striking is rich with SGA coupled with making a few selections near the top over the past 4 years.

Agree with the fact most elite teams are in same situation.
Agree that the Knicks have gone “All in”
Concern is if KAT and an injury prone player is worth that “All in”?
Hoping they are.

Look at Denver. The won a chip. Legit. Amazing stuff right. They do not win it without Murray and Porter JR. Two guys who have missed massive chunks of seasons etc.

Worth it?

IDK if this FO is done or not... but with Mitch easing into team winning a bunch of games there's a CHANCE we hit the postseason with a rotation that looks like Brunson/Mikal/Josh/OG/KAT with MbBride and Mitch being the bench goons.

Imagine we had that squad vs. the Pacers? Shit's a sweep and I would love to see KP trying to chase KAT around while Mikal/OG/Josh crawl up the asses of Tatum and Brown

Still excited to see Brunson and KAT score from all over the floor and Bridges and OG put clamps on the league. DDV would have been a perfect 5th there, but we have options. I think I am gonna love Hart finding KAT for the trailing 3 or Hart rebounding the miss since there will be no one to stop him.

Haven't benn this excited for a season in a while....Most will miss DDV, but I feel like Shamet can make up for some of the 3pt shooting we will miss with him being traded. DDV and Shame are both career 38% 3 pt shooters.

ToddTT wrote:

martin wrote:Some good reasoning why trade makes sense

I prefer my players with a scowl.

Meow?

ToddTT wrote:Randomly (and infrequently) the embedded YouTube videos say the following, and it makes me think for a second...

"Sign in to confirm you’re not a bot. This helps protect our community."

Yeah I’ve seen that too, once with an ESPN video

newyorknewyork wrote:Deuce, Hart, Mikal, OG, Towns give u three decent ball handlers to get up the court. With Towns operating out of the high post opening up the lanes for drives/cuts and loose ball opportunities off of long distance shots.

I'd be really surprised to see that lineup. I think Payne was brought in to be the PG off the bench. For their careers Payne and McBride have averaged 8.9 vs 4 6 assists per 100 possessions, respectively. McBride also had a really strong net rating in his minutes with Brunson. McBride might still be the first guy off the bench, replacing Bridges who will be asked to carry the offense when Brunson sits.

gradyandrew wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:Right! It’s all about the mismatches and if other team's worried about covering 4 guys at the 3 point line and then switching a bigger guy to box out Josh for the offensive rebound- I think the Knicks will have a really high octane offense.

That a great point. Hart will cause havoc on the glass if the floor is spread out like that.

My caveat here is that in its final form, I still think Robinson in the starting lineup is still the strongest group the Knicks can field. For all the defensive kudos he gets, it might be overlooked that his 20.7 ORB% from last season would have been second All time if he had qualified, , just under Rodman's 20 year old record of 20.8. Robinson's dunk % fell off a cliff Las season going from 2.4 to 1.4 dunks per game. I don't think of Brunson as an instinctively good lob passer, so there might be an argument to pair Robinson with Payne off the bench. This will be pretty obvious by the first time Robinson plays. If he and Payne have an elaborate handshake ritual already sorted out, rest assured they have been connecting on lobs in practice.

I'm not focused on starting lineups. Just thinking about possible rotations and in game lineup possibilities. Mitch starts or doesn't start. He is still going to get around 20-24 mins per game.

newyorknewyork wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Deuce, Hart, Mikal, OG, Towns give u three decent ball handlers to get up the court. With Towns operating out of the high post opening up the lanes for drives/cuts and loose ball opportunities off of long distance shots.

I'd be really surprised to see that lineup. I think Payne was brought in to be the PG off the bench. For their careers Payne and McBride have averaged 8.9 vs 4 6 assists per 100 possessions, respectively. McBride also had a really strong net rating in his minutes with Brunson. McBride might still be the first guy off the bench, replacing Bridges who will be asked to carry the offense when Brunson sits.

We will def see that lineup at times imo. It would be elite defensively from 1-4 around KAT, as well as provide optimal spacing. Hart, Bridges, KAT can all put up 3-4 ast per game. Which offsets the necessity for playmaking at the PG position. The combination of defense and ball movement for that lineup is greater than with Payne, who isn't a good defender. We would get bump in creation with Payne over Deuce sure. But the defensive drop off is more drastic.

Yeah this is another iteration of a 5-out Knicks death lineup with defense, I’d expect Thibs to show the first hints of joy by cracking a smile on the side lines.

Deuce may never be the passing PG that would match Kolek’s decision-making or Brunson’s scoring instincts, but holy hell, if a Hart Mikal Deuce lineup can find enough cohesion from an offensive standpoint, look the **** out.

newyorknewyork wrote:

martin wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Deuce, Hart, Mikal, OG, Towns give u three decent ball handlers to get up the court. With Towns operating out of the high post opening up the lanes for drives/cuts and loose ball opportunities off of long distance shots.

I'd be really surprised to see that lineup. I think Payne was brought in to be the PG off the bench. For their careers Payne and McBride have averaged 8.9 vs 4 6 assists per 100 possessions, respectively. McBride also had a really strong net rating in his minutes with Brunson. McBride might still be the first guy off the bench, replacing Bridges who will be asked to carry the offense when Brunson sits.

We will def see that lineup at times imo. It would be elite defensively from 1-4 around KAT, as well as provide optimal spacing. Hart, Bridges, KAT can all put up 3-4 ast per game. Which offsets the necessity for playmaking at the PG position. The combination of defense and ball movement for that lineup is greater than with Payne, who isn't a good defender. We would get bump in creation with Payne over Deuce sure. But the defensive drop off is more drastic.

Yeah this is another iteration of a 5-out Knicks death lineup with defense, I’d expect Thibs to show the first hints of joy by cracking a smile on the side lines.

Deuce may never be the passing PG that would match Kolek’s decision-making or Brunson’s scoring instincts, but holy hell, if a Hart Mikal Deuce lineup can find enough cohesion from an offensive standpoint, look the **** out.

They don't fully need to with KAT operating out of the high post. One of Deuce, Hart, Mikal can get the ball up the court. Run a 2 man game with KAT, or run plays designed with KAT in the high post for back door cuts, or free Deuce, OG or Mikal up with off ball picks to receive the ball either to catch and shoot or drive into the paint.

Or just flat out iso KAT.

Outside of that. Broken plays, loose balls, fast breaks should all be tilted in Knicks favor given the pest that are on the court.

Oh for sure. I do wonder what tact Thibs will take with Deuce now that Cam and Kolek on roster. Give him a few months and an adequate amount of minutes in the PG role for some development reps or nah cause Knicks on a winning at all costs mission?

Maybe CP3 needed to stay near west coast cause of family or he wanted to dive into Pops wine cellar but he would have been the perfect PG off bench for Knicks for a year.