dk7th wrote:

sebstar wrote:

dk7th wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Here are his #s per 48 min and the average PG:
Rbs: 3.7 (Felton) vs. 3.9 (average)
Ast: 9.2 vs. 8.3
TOs: 3.6 vs. 3.3
Blk: 0.3 vs. 0.3
Stls: 2.0 vs. 1.8

Other than the scoring efficiency, he's basically average. He gets both more assists and turnovers than average, but the ratio is pretty average.

his asst:to ratio is great, and he is a scoring threat, shooting a decent percentage for a PG. Im not trying to place him in a standing that is over-inflated. Id say he is above average, and a perfect fit for the objectives of this team, which our record with him as a starter reflects. I dont put much stock in this worst efficiency season in decades stat, because it doest square with other more important variables. Ive already accounted for why its a misleading stat.

how can he be a "scoring threat" when he shoots 39.6%FG. such a scoring threat is felton that some teams have been backing off of and daring him to shoot.

so far as efficiency it basically rewards smart shot-takers and exposes players who take foolish shots. it also rewards players who can draw fouls. there's absolutely nothing misleading about the stat, nothing. the problem with felton's game is that he refuses to recognize his limitations and play within his limitations. why does such a lousy scorer take so many shots? he has NO business putting up 16-17 shots a game.

"perfect fit for the objectives of this team" geezus

He was shooting fine until he basically broke both of his hands....I guess thats the thanks he gets from knick fans for trying to gut it out, and help the team.

as clyde said, if your hand/s are hurt then DON"T SHOOT. find other ways to contribute. the last 5 games he played he took 18 15 21 15 19.

no thanks!

Yes Felton is very important to the team but this statement illustrate's the IQ of Felton, there were multiple games where he was so OFF but continued to have horrible shot selection with 20+ shots per game and converting nearly 30%

It is so simple to understand, Clyde could not have been any more right and obvious
There were mutliple games he was not looking to get other's involved when his shot was struggling and that is a great concern of his approach to the game

Bonn1997 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

sebstar wrote:

dk7th wrote:
vendetta? don't be silly, sebstar. people like me? come on do i have to start checking you every time you start in with the sophistry? he is what he is-- a scrubby, scrappy tweener guard who can't orchestrate and doesn't play within his limitations. i admire him the hell out of any player playing hurt, including felton of course! but if you are going to be out there with hurt hands then just be trent dilfer out there not kenny frickin' stabler.

Ive already addressed this lunacy, and broke down why such an opinion is base and ridiculous. Keep doing what you do tho. Others can judge for themselves.

you wrote:

"Sorry. Busy day. Didnt even get to watch the game.
For starters, as mentioned, the knicks had one of the best records in the league, over a 1/3 of the way through the season, with Felton manning the point. Overall, his teams have been successful throughout his career"

26-54
31-47
32-47
35-47
42-38
28-26

this is what you mean by his teams being successful. what a hoot

you go on:

"Then there is Jason Kidd and his ranking. Kidd is ranked, what 3rd? So with efficiency as a de-facto variable that explains success and w/ls, Kidd should therefore be considered one of the best current pgs in the league. We know thats not true."

see what you did there? it's called a red herring. you do this a lot. and then you get on a roll with said red herring:

"Kidd is wonderful as a specialist, role player --- but as a featured pg? A liability. He cant put pressure on a defense, nor make things happen as an athlete anymore at his age, which hurts the effectiveness of his teammates. Anyone who watches knows as much."

this part about hurting the effectiveness of teammates because he lacks athleticism is another red herring. what about the positive ways he affects those same teammates with his skills and savvy?

but then you just can't help yourself and continue hammering an empty point home:

"Efficiency often rewards those who do less, not impact the game more."

says who? this is an unfounded assertion which you try to qualify with "often." not going to fly.

and then you finish with personal opinions masquerading as fact. basically you are saying that you see the game a certain way and that's that. i'll break it down for you:

"Feltons aggressive play," is a euphemism for rash and reckless.

"and decent shooting for a PG the most important position," 39.6% FG is not close to decent

"stresses the defense w/ consistent pressure." nonsense. defenses sag off because they want him to shoot, broken hands or no broken hands. again, the last 5 games he shot 15-20 times a game.

"As a legit offensive threat, the d is on their heels," now you repeat this falsehood to set up another false conclusion:

"which has a positive effect on Melo and the team as a whole." if only he actually distributed the ball properly. so, no... wrong again.

"Even when he misses, its potentially a positive as a cumulative effect (and direct effect w/ an offensive rebound)." LOL

"The formula for success with him as pg works, but it doesnt show up on a sheet sometimes." yeah tell me about it.

Well done. I doubt it was worth the time to do that but still, well done.
I actually didn't realize Felton's teams struggled that much. That's well below .500.

slow day at work so i took the time to break it all down.

frankly i don't relish having to check certain dudes but i guess i am going to have to.

"winning is the dependent variable" LOL

dk7th wrote:

correct me if i am wrong but did bonn or anybody mention that kidd is a point guard? that is YOUR invention, to put it charitably, having ZERO to do with the discussion of felton as point guard. if nobody but you raised this then it. is. a. red. herring.

kidd's efficiency was part and parcel to YOUR premise of speaking about him as a point guard. can't believe you can come up with this tripe with a straight face.

chandler 62% down from around 70%
melo 42.3% down from 47%

while this is factually the case, you are assuming that felton's absence is the reason for this. maybe you have a point with chandler because felton likes alley-ooping. i'll grant you that one.

with melo, however, in spite of repeating the same unfounded points about felton, it is in fact melo's OWN shot selection that has caused his numbers to go down. why? because when felton puts pressure on defenses felton shoots the ball 75% of the time! you can't lose what you never had.

Felton helps break down the defense and gets everyone, including Melo, easier shot attempts. I don't even see how this is debatable. It does not always show up as an assist for Felton but he does break the defense down and this benefits all the shooters.

dk7th wrote:

sebstar wrote:

dk7th wrote:
26-54
31-47
32-47
35-47
42-38
28-26

those teams he played with in the first few years of his career were awful. The point remains that Felton was the PG for the Bobcats first winning record, and playoff appearance in franchise history, and was a favorite of coach larry brown. The knicks record with Felton at the helm has been great.

see what you did there? it's called a red herring. you do this a lot. and then you get on a roll with said red herring:

"Kidd is wonderful as a specialist, role player --- but as a featured pg? A liability. He cant put pressure on a defense, nor make things happen as an athlete anymore at his age, which hurts the effectiveness of his teammates. Anyone who watches knows as much."

this part about hurting the effectiveness of teammates because he lacks athleticism is another red herring. what about the positive ways he affects those same teammates with his skills and savvy?

Like many things that you invoke but arent smart enough to fully conceptualize, you dont know what red herring means because you are misapplying. I was providing support for my argument, not trying to radically take the convo into a different direction with misleading info. SMH

but then you just can't help yourself and continue hammering an empty point home:

"Efficiency often rewards those who do less, not impact the game more."

says who? this is an unfounded assertion which you try to qualify with "often." not going to fly.

Perhaps if you werent so obsessed with butchering the logic fallacy red herring, you might have been able to recognize that Jason Kidd's efficiency rating was part and parcel to that argument. Kidd is not a top 3 pg, as reasonable person can attest, but he is rewarded for his limited output in that metric.

and then you finish with personal opinions masquerading as fact. basically you are saying that you see the game a certain way and that's that. i'll break it down for you:

"Feltons aggressive play," is a euphemism for rash and reckless.

"and decent shooting for a PG the most important position," 39.6% FG is not close to decent

"stresses the defense w/ consistent pressure." nonsense. defenses sag off because they want him to shoot, broken hands or no broken hands. again, the last 5 games he shot 15-20 times a game.

"As a legit offensive threat, the d is on their heels," now you repeat this falsehood to set up another false conclusion:

"which has a positive effect on Melo and the team as a whole." if only he actually distributed the ball properly. so, no... wrong again.

"Even when he misses, its potentially a positive as a cumulative effect (and direct effect w/ an offensive rebound)." LOL

"The formula for success with him as pg works, but it doesnt show up on a sheet sometimes." yeah tell me about it.

My personal opinions are reflected both qualitatively and quantitatively. The shooting percentage % for both Melo and Tyson have dropped in Felton's absence. Again, Felton's struggles with % are directly attributed to devastating hand injuries, yet you keep regurgitating his shooting stat. Any idiot that watches the games can tell that the offense is struggling w/o Felton's penetration and consistent threat on offense. God, I feel like Im talking to children here.

correct me if i am wrong but did bonn or anybody mention that kidd is a point guard? that is YOUR invention, to put it charitably, having ZERO to do with the discussion of felton as point guard. if nobody but you raised this then it. is. a. red. herring.

kidd's efficiency was part and parcel to YOUR premise of speaking about him as a point guard. can't believe you can come up with this tripe with a straight face.

chandler 62% down from around 70%
melo 42.3% down from 47%

while this is factually the case, you are assuming that felton's absence is the reason for this. maybe you have a point with chandler because felton likes alley-ooping. i'll grant you that one.

with melo, however, in spite of repeating the same unfounded points about felton, it is in fact melo's OWN shot selection that has caused his numbers to go down. why? because when felton puts pressure on defenses felton shoots the ball 75% of the time! you can't lose what you never had.

If I may interject my two cents...Bonn has stated many times in this forum and probably this very thread that JKidd is the best PG on this team...

holfresh wrote:
If I may interject my two cents...Bonn has stated many times in this forum and probably this very thread that JKidd is the best PG on this team...

Yeah bro. Seriously. Shameless lying. Not dishonesty....lying. Whats up with that? Its hard to even maintain a convo with these guys, because they have no problem lying at the drop of a hat, and its tough to keep up with.

dk7th wrote:Red herring is an English-language idiom that commonly refers to a type of logical fallacy in which a clue is intentionally or unintentionally misleading or distracting from the actual issue.

Leave it to you to create a red herring while trying to define a red herring. Unbelievable stuff.

@ holfresh i can understand what bonn is saying here, if true.

kidd actually has the numbers to suggest, "suggest" mind you, that he has been fulfilling some of the responsibilities of point guard, notably the usage rate relative to his assist rate. it is in fact closer to those of a point guard than a shooting guard. meanwhile felton's usage rate relative to his assist rate is closer to those of a shooting guard.

someone here astutely noted that the two of them together make for one decent point guard. props for hat observation whoever that was as i think that is a very reasonable assessment. and i think right now we see that kidd to a very real extent needs felton just as felton needs kidd.

the solution to felton's absence is to start prigioni-- a suggestion several here have made for some time and with which i agree.

How do you draw the conclusion that Felton needs JKidd...What is your evidence...In four games Felton played without Kidd he had decent numbers....Three of the four were good games for Felton...Knicks won three of four...Felton in his previous stint with the Knicks thrived without JKidd...So what is the basis for your assessment??

ESPN and Charles Barkley was giving JKidd all the credit for the Knicks' early success...Are u in that camp too??

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

sebstar wrote:

dk7th wrote:
26-54
31-47
32-47
35-47
42-38
28-26

those teams he played with in the first few years of his career were awful. The point remains that Felton was the PG for the Bobcats first winning record, and playoff appearance in franchise history, and was a favorite of coach larry brown. The knicks record with Felton at the helm has been great.

see what you did there? it's called a red herring. you do this a lot. and then you get on a roll with said red herring:

"Kidd is wonderful as a specialist, role player --- but as a featured pg? A liability. He cant put pressure on a defense, nor make things happen as an athlete anymore at his age, which hurts the effectiveness of his teammates. Anyone who watches knows as much."

this part about hurting the effectiveness of teammates because he lacks athleticism is another red herring. what about the positive ways he affects those same teammates with his skills and savvy?

Like many things that you invoke but arent smart enough to fully conceptualize, you dont know what red herring means because you are misapplying. I was providing support for my argument, not trying to radically take the convo into a different direction with misleading info. SMH

but then you just can't help yourself and continue hammering an empty point home:

"Efficiency often rewards those who do less, not impact the game more."

says who? this is an unfounded assertion which you try to qualify with "often." not going to fly.

Perhaps if you werent so obsessed with butchering the logic fallacy red herring, you might have been able to recognize that Jason Kidd's efficiency rating was part and parcel to that argument. Kidd is not a top 3 pg, as reasonable person can attest, but he is rewarded for his limited output in that metric.

and then you finish with personal opinions masquerading as fact. basically you are saying that you see the game a certain way and that's that. i'll break it down for you:

"Feltons aggressive play," is a euphemism for rash and reckless.

"and decent shooting for a PG the most important position," 39.6% FG is not close to decent

"stresses the defense w/ consistent pressure." nonsense. defenses sag off because they want him to shoot, broken hands or no broken hands. again, the last 5 games he shot 15-20 times a game.

"As a legit offensive threat, the d is on their heels," now you repeat this falsehood to set up another false conclusion:

"which has a positive effect on Melo and the team as a whole." if only he actually distributed the ball properly. so, no... wrong again.

"Even when he misses, its potentially a positive as a cumulative effect (and direct effect w/ an offensive rebound)." LOL

"The formula for success with him as pg works, but it doesnt show up on a sheet sometimes." yeah tell me about it.

My personal opinions are reflected both qualitatively and quantitatively. The shooting percentage % for both Melo and Tyson have dropped in Felton's absence. Again, Felton's struggles with % are directly attributed to devastating hand injuries, yet you keep regurgitating his shooting stat. Any idiot that watches the games can tell that the offense is struggling w/o Felton's penetration and consistent threat on offense. God, I feel like Im talking to children here.

correct me if i am wrong but did bonn or anybody mention that kidd is a point guard? that is YOUR invention, to put it charitably, having ZERO to do with the discussion of felton as point guard. if nobody but you raised this then it. is. a. red. herring.

kidd's efficiency was part and parcel to YOUR premise of speaking about him as a point guard. can't believe you can come up with this tripe with a straight face.

chandler 62% down from around 70%
melo 42.3% down from 47%

while this is factually the case, you are assuming that felton's absence is the reason for this. maybe you have a point with chandler because felton likes alley-ooping. i'll grant you that one.

with melo, however, in spite of repeating the same unfounded points about felton, it is in fact melo's OWN shot selection that has caused his numbers to go down. why? because when felton puts pressure on defenses felton shoots the ball 75% of the time! you can't lose what you never had.

If I may interject my two cents...Bonn has stated many times in this forum and probably this very thread that JKidd is the best PG on this team...

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

sebstar wrote:

dk7th wrote:
26-54
31-47
32-47
35-47
42-38
28-26

those teams he played with in the first few years of his career were awful. The point remains that Felton was the PG for the Bobcats first winning record, and playoff appearance in franchise history, and was a favorite of coach larry brown. The knicks record with Felton at the helm has been great.

see what you did there? it's called a red herring. you do this a lot. and then you get on a roll with said red herring:

"Kidd is wonderful as a specialist, role player --- but as a featured pg? A liability. He cant put pressure on a defense, nor make things happen as an athlete anymore at his age, which hurts the effectiveness of his teammates. Anyone who watches knows as much."

this part about hurting the effectiveness of teammates because he lacks athleticism is another red herring. what about the positive ways he affects those same teammates with his skills and savvy?

Like many things that you invoke but arent smart enough to fully conceptualize, you dont know what red herring means because you are misapplying. I was providing support for my argument, not trying to radically take the convo into a different direction with misleading info. SMH

but then you just can't help yourself and continue hammering an empty point home:

"Efficiency often rewards those who do less, not impact the game more."

says who? this is an unfounded assertion which you try to qualify with "often." not going to fly.

Perhaps if you werent so obsessed with butchering the logic fallacy red herring, you might have been able to recognize that Jason Kidd's efficiency rating was part and parcel to that argument. Kidd is not a top 3 pg, as reasonable person can attest, but he is rewarded for his limited output in that metric.

and then you finish with personal opinions masquerading as fact. basically you are saying that you see the game a certain way and that's that. i'll break it down for you:

"Feltons aggressive play," is a euphemism for rash and reckless.

"and decent shooting for a PG the most important position," 39.6% FG is not close to decent

"stresses the defense w/ consistent pressure." nonsense. defenses sag off because they want him to shoot, broken hands or no broken hands. again, the last 5 games he shot 15-20 times a game.

"As a legit offensive threat, the d is on their heels," now you repeat this falsehood to set up another false conclusion:

"which has a positive effect on Melo and the team as a whole." if only he actually distributed the ball properly. so, no... wrong again.

"Even when he misses, its potentially a positive as a cumulative effect (and direct effect w/ an offensive rebound)." LOL

"The formula for success with him as pg works, but it doesnt show up on a sheet sometimes." yeah tell me about it.

My personal opinions are reflected both qualitatively and quantitatively. The shooting percentage % for both Melo and Tyson have dropped in Felton's absence. Again, Felton's struggles with % are directly attributed to devastating hand injuries, yet you keep regurgitating his shooting stat. Any idiot that watches the games can tell that the offense is struggling w/o Felton's penetration and consistent threat on offense. God, I feel like Im talking to children here.

correct me if i am wrong but did bonn or anybody mention that kidd is a point guard? that is YOUR invention, to put it charitably, having ZERO to do with the discussion of felton as point guard. if nobody but you raised this then it. is. a. red. herring.

kidd's efficiency was part and parcel to YOUR premise of speaking about him as a point guard. can't believe you can come up with this tripe with a straight face.

chandler 62% down from around 70%
melo 42.3% down from 47%

while this is factually the case, you are assuming that felton's absence is the reason for this. maybe you have a point with chandler because felton likes alley-ooping. i'll grant you that one.

with melo, however, in spite of repeating the same unfounded points about felton, it is in fact melo's OWN shot selection that has caused his numbers to go down. why? because when felton puts pressure on defenses felton shoots the ball 75% of the time! you can't lose what you never had.

If I may interject my two cents...Bonn has stated many times in this forum and probably this very thread that JKidd is the best PG on this team...

I still think he is but we would need a healthy play-making SG to pair him with.

One who can play the role of a PG?