holfresh wrote:

sebstar wrote:

dk7th wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Here are his #s per 48 min and the average PG:
Rbs: 3.7 (Felton) vs. 3.9 (average)
Ast: 9.2 vs. 8.3
TOs: 3.6 vs. 3.3
Blk: 0.3 vs. 0.3
Stls: 2.0 vs. 1.8

Other than the scoring efficiency, he's basically average. He gets both more assists and turnovers than average, but the ratio is pretty average.

his asst:to ratio is great, and he is a scoring threat, shooting a decent percentage for a PG. Im not trying to place him in a standing that is over-inflated. Id say he is above average, and a perfect fit for the objectives of this team, which our record with him as a starter reflects. I dont put much stock in this worst efficiency season in decades stat, because it doest square with other more important variables. Ive already accounted for why its a misleading stat.

how can he be a "scoring threat" when he shoots 39.6%FG. such a scoring threat is felton that some teams have been backing off of and daring him to shoot.

so far as efficiency it basically rewards smart shot-takers and exposes players who take foolish shots. it also rewards players who can draw fouls. there's absolutely nothing misleading about the stat, nothing. the problem with felton's game is that he refuses to recognize his limitations and play within his limitations. why does such a lousy scorer take so many shots? he has NO business putting up 16-17 shots a game.

"perfect fit for the objectives of this team" geezus

He was shooting fine until he basically broke both of his hands....I guess thats the thanks he gets from knick fans for trying to gut it out, and help the team.

No, not today's Knicks fans...They praise Lin who left us high and dry during last years playoff against the Heat..Left it up to Melo to do it all alone...Then they call Melo selfish...Felton plays through injury in both hands because he knows the team need him and gets dumped on for it...Lin rides the pine to make sure the offer is as big as he can get and it's all good...He is the type of player we need they say...I love it...Can't make this stuff up...

its all so immature and stupid. Acting like weenie jilted lovers, over average players like lin and gallo. The feel like they have to avenge their honor by obsessively trashing Felton/Melo/Woody.

ChuckBuck wrote:

sebstar wrote:

dk7th wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Here are his #s per 48 min and the average PG:
Rbs: 3.7 (Felton) vs. 3.9 (average)
Ast: 9.2 vs. 8.3
TOs: 3.6 vs. 3.3
Blk: 0.3 vs. 0.3
Stls: 2.0 vs. 1.8

Other than the scoring efficiency, he's basically average. He gets both more assists and turnovers than average, but the ratio is pretty average.

his asst:to ratio is great, and he is a scoring threat, shooting a decent percentage for a PG. Im not trying to place him in a standing that is over-inflated. Id say he is above average, and a perfect fit for the objectives of this team, which our record with him as a starter reflects. I dont put much stock in this worst efficiency season in decades stat, because it doest square with other more important variables. Ive already accounted for why its a misleading stat.

how can he be a "scoring threat" when he shoots 39.6%FG. such a scoring threat is felton that some teams have been backing off of and daring him to shoot.

so far as efficiency it basically rewards smart shot-takers and exposes players who take foolish shots. it also rewards players who can draw fouls. there's absolutely nothing misleading about the stat, nothing. the problem with felton's game is that he refuses to recognize his limitations and play within his limitations. why does such a lousy scorer take so many shots? he has NO business putting up 16-17 shots a game.

"perfect fit for the objectives of this team" geezus

He was shooting fine until he basically broke both of his hands....I guess thats the thanks he gets from knick fans for trying to gut it out, and help the team.

Efficiency is more important than winning it appears.

your riposte is in vain. it appears witty but where's the substance?

sebstar wrote:

dk7th wrote:

sebstar wrote:

dk7th wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Here are his #s per 48 min and the average PG:
Rbs: 3.7 (Felton) vs. 3.9 (average)
Ast: 9.2 vs. 8.3
TOs: 3.6 vs. 3.3
Blk: 0.3 vs. 0.3
Stls: 2.0 vs. 1.8

Other than the scoring efficiency, he's basically average. He gets both more assists and turnovers than average, but the ratio is pretty average.

his asst:to ratio is great, and he is a scoring threat, shooting a decent percentage for a PG. Im not trying to place him in a standing that is over-inflated. Id say he is above average, and a perfect fit for the objectives of this team, which our record with him as a starter reflects. I dont put much stock in this worst efficiency season in decades stat, because it doest square with other more important variables. Ive already accounted for why its a misleading stat.

how can he be a "scoring threat" when he shoots 39.6%FG. such a scoring threat is felton that some teams have been backing off of and daring him to shoot.

so far as efficiency it basically rewards smart shot-takers and exposes players who take foolish shots. it also rewards players who can draw fouls. there's absolutely nothing misleading about the stat, nothing. the problem with felton's game is that he refuses to recognize his limitations and play within his limitations. why does such a lousy scorer take so many shots? he has NO business putting up 16-17 shots a game.

"perfect fit for the objectives of this team" geezus

He was shooting fine until he basically broke both of his hands....I guess thats the thanks he gets from knick fans for trying to gut it out, and help the team.

as clyde said, if your hand/s are hurt then DON"T SHOOT. find other ways to contribute. the last 5 games he played he took 18 15 21 15 19.

no thanks!

its a fair criticism. But as usual, people like you go overboard. I guarantee you, if he were a player you didnt have a vendetta against, then his playing through injuries in order to help the team would occupy a much larger space in your analysis for why his production slipped.

If one does not like a players game why is it a vendetta?

I don't like Felton's game but I like Felton the person.

sebstar wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

sebstar wrote:

dk7th wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Here are his #s per 48 min and the average PG:
Rbs: 3.7 (Felton) vs. 3.9 (average)
Ast: 9.2 vs. 8.3
TOs: 3.6 vs. 3.3
Blk: 0.3 vs. 0.3
Stls: 2.0 vs. 1.8

Other than the scoring efficiency, he's basically average. He gets both more assists and turnovers than average, but the ratio is pretty average.

his asst:to ratio is great, and he is a scoring threat, shooting a decent percentage for a PG. Im not trying to place him in a standing that is over-inflated. Id say he is above average, and a perfect fit for the objectives of this team, which our record with him as a starter reflects. I dont put much stock in this worst efficiency season in decades stat, because it doest square with other more important variables. Ive already accounted for why its a misleading stat.

how can he be a "scoring threat" when he shoots 39.6%FG. such a scoring threat is felton that some teams have been backing off of and daring him to shoot.

so far as efficiency it basically rewards smart shot-takers and exposes players who take foolish shots. it also rewards players who can draw fouls. there's absolutely nothing misleading about the stat, nothing. the problem with felton's game is that he refuses to recognize his limitations and play within his limitations. why does such a lousy scorer take so many shots? he has NO business putting up 16-17 shots a game.

"perfect fit for the objectives of this team" geezus

He was shooting fine until he basically broke both of his hands....I guess thats the thanks he gets from knick fans for trying to gut it out, and help the team.

Efficiency is more important than winning it appears.

annoying the piss out of reasonable posters, by posting dishonest garbage seems to trump all for too many around here.

there you go piling on again instead of responding to the flaws and contradictions in your stated opinion.

sebstar wrote:

dk7th wrote:

sebstar wrote:

dk7th wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Here are his #s per 48 min and the average PG:
Rbs: 3.7 (Felton) vs. 3.9 (average)
Ast: 9.2 vs. 8.3
TOs: 3.6 vs. 3.3
Blk: 0.3 vs. 0.3
Stls: 2.0 vs. 1.8

Other than the scoring efficiency, he's basically average. He gets both more assists and turnovers than average, but the ratio is pretty average.

his asst:to ratio is great, and he is a scoring threat, shooting a decent percentage for a PG. Im not trying to place him in a standing that is over-inflated. Id say he is above average, and a perfect fit for the objectives of this team, which our record with him as a starter reflects. I dont put much stock in this worst efficiency season in decades stat, because it doest square with other more important variables. Ive already accounted for why its a misleading stat.

how can he be a "scoring threat" when he shoots 39.6%FG. such a scoring threat is felton that some teams have been backing off of and daring him to shoot.

so far as efficiency it basically rewards smart shot-takers and exposes players who take foolish shots. it also rewards players who can draw fouls. there's absolutely nothing misleading about the stat, nothing. the problem with felton's game is that he refuses to recognize his limitations and play within his limitations. why does such a lousy scorer take so many shots? he has NO business putting up 16-17 shots a game.

"perfect fit for the objectives of this team" geezus

He was shooting fine until he basically broke both of his hands....I guess thats the thanks he gets from knick fans for trying to gut it out, and help the team.

as clyde said, if your hand/s are hurt then DON"T SHOOT. find other ways to contribute. the last 5 games he played he took 18 15 21 15 19.

no thanks!

its a fair criticism. But as usual, people like you go overboard. I guarantee you, if he were a player you didnt have a vendetta against, then his playing through injuries in order to help the team would occupy a much larger space in your analysis for why his production slipped.

vendetta? don't be silly, sebstar. people like me? come on do i have to start checking you every time you start in with the sophistry? he is what he is-- a scrubby, scrappy tweener guard who can't orchestrate and doesn't play within his limitations. i admire him the hell out of any player playing hurt, including felton of course! but if you are going to be out there with hurt hands then just be trent dilfer out there not kenny frickin' stabler.

sebstar wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

sebstar wrote:

dk7th wrote:

sebstar wrote:

dk7th wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Here are his #s per 48 min and the average PG:
Rbs: 3.7 (Felton) vs. 3.9 (average)
Ast: 9.2 vs. 8.3
TOs: 3.6 vs. 3.3
Blk: 0.3 vs. 0.3
Stls: 2.0 vs. 1.8

Other than the scoring efficiency, he's basically average. He gets both more assists and turnovers than average, but the ratio is pretty average.

his asst:to ratio is great, and he is a scoring threat, shooting a decent percentage for a PG. Im not trying to place him in a standing that is over-inflated. Id say he is above average, and a perfect fit for the objectives of this team, which our record with him as a starter reflects. I dont put much stock in this worst efficiency season in decades stat, because it doest square with other more important variables. Ive already accounted for why its a misleading stat.

how can he be a "scoring threat" when he shoots 39.6%FG. such a scoring threat is felton that some teams have been backing off of and daring him to shoot.

so far as efficiency it basically rewards smart shot-takers and exposes players who take foolish shots. it also rewards players who can draw fouls. there's absolutely nothing misleading about the stat, nothing. the problem with felton's game is that he refuses to recognize his limitations and play within his limitations. why does such a lousy scorer take so many shots? he has NO business putting up 16-17 shots a game.

"perfect fit for the objectives of this team" geezus

He was shooting fine until he basically broke both of his hands....I guess thats the thanks he gets from knick fans for trying to gut it out, and help the team.

as clyde said, if your hand/s are hurt then DON"T SHOOT. find other ways to contribute. the last 5 games he played he took 18 15 21 15 19.

no thanks!

its a fair criticism. But as usual, people like you go overboard. I guarantee you, if he were a player you didnt have a vendetta against, then his playing through injuries in order to help the team would occupy a much larger space in your analysis for why his production slipped.

If one does not like a players game why is it a vendetta?

I don't like Felton's game but I like Felton the person.

critiquing his game reasonably, incorporating all data and observations both good and bad: fair

personally attacking said player, but eliminating all positives, and accentuating only negative, in order to create a crude conclusion that the player is some worthless, chucker, backup level talent (said in this very thread)...vendetta.

what personal attacks have i made against felton. you're doing it again. show me one example of a personal attack. you also slipped in the word "worthless" when i have never used that word describng felton-- ever. don't put words in my mouth. it's lame.

and then when you come up with examples of my personal attacks against felton, please list for me what you conceive to be felton's positives.

i say he is scrappy. scrappy is a positive. like reggie evans is scrappy. can't not like these types of players.

now what are other positives?

Bonn1997 wrote:Here are his #s per 48 min and the average PG:
Rbs: 3.7 (Felton) vs. 3.9 (average)
Ast: 9.2 vs. 8.3
TOs: 3.6 vs. 3.3
Blk: 0.3 vs. 0.3
Stls: 2.0 vs. 1.8
Other than the scoring efficiency, he's basically average. He gets both more assists and turnovers than average, but the ratio is pretty average.

His turnover numbers are even more remarkable when you consider his usage rate compared to most point guards. When you look ar Raymond's turnover rate, it's also way below the norm. That's what Raymond does well. He's been our engine. He's a guy who can push the ball, get in the paint and play mistake free. A lot of guys can't do that. The average point guard plays less minutes and handles the ball less and still has similar or slightly worse turnover stats than Raymond Felton. His shooting inside the three point line has been horrible, but I attribute some of that to the hand injuries. I remember that he found his range with the floater earlier in the season.

Bonn1997 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Here are his #s per 48 min and the average PG:
Rbs: 3.7 (Felton) vs. 3.9 (average)
Ast: 9.2 vs. 8.3
TOs: 3.6 vs. 3.3
Blk: 0.3 vs. 0.3
Stls: 2.0 vs. 1.8
Other than the scoring efficiency, he's basically average. He gets both more assists and turnovers than average, but the ratio is pretty average.

His turnover numbers are even more remarkable when you consider his usage rate compared to most point guards. When you look ar Raymond's turnover rate, it's also way below the norm. That's what Raymond does well. He's been our engine. He's a guy who can push the ball, get in the paint and play mistake free. A lot of guys can't do that. The average point guard plays less minutes and handles the ball less and still has similar or slightly worse turnover stats than Raymond Felton. His shooting inside the three point line has been horrible, but I attribute some of that to the hand injuries. I remember that he found his range with the floater earlier in the season.

Eh, average PG has a 2.52 A/TO ratio and Felton has a 2.56. Remember, these #s are for the average PG, not the average starting PG. They include backups making the league min.

which is a point BDG addressed, and actually works in favor of Felton when analyzing his production against the league "averages", when it comes to to/asst ratio.

sebstar wrote:

dk7th wrote:
vendetta? don't be silly, sebstar. people like me? come on do i have to start checking you every time you start in with the sophistry? he is what he is-- a scrubby, scrappy tweener guard who can't orchestrate and doesn't play within his limitations. i admire him the hell out of any player playing hurt, including felton of course! but if you are going to be out there with hurt hands then just be trent dilfer out there not kenny frickin' stabler.

Ive already addressed this lunacy, and broke down why such an opinion is base and ridiculous. Keep doing what you do tho. Others can judge for themselves.

you wrote:

"Sorry. Busy day. Didnt even get to watch the game.
For starters, as mentioned, the knicks had one of the best records in the league, over a 1/3 of the way through the season, with Felton manning the point. Overall, his teams have been successful throughout his career"

26-54
31-47
32-47
35-47
42-38
28-26

this is what you mean by his teams being successful. what a hoot

you go on:

"Then there is Jason Kidd and his ranking. Kidd is ranked, what 3rd? So with efficiency as a de-facto variable that explains success and w/ls, Kidd should therefore be considered one of the best current pgs in the league. We know thats not true."

see what you did there? it's called a red herring. you do this a lot. and then you get on a roll with said red herring:

"Kidd is wonderful as a specialist, role player --- but as a featured pg? A liability. He cant put pressure on a defense, nor make things happen as an athlete anymore at his age, which hurts the effectiveness of his teammates. Anyone who watches knows as much."

this part about hurting the effectiveness of teammates because he lacks athleticism is another red herring. what about the positive ways he affects those same teammates with his skills and savvy?

but then you just can't help yourself and continue hammering an empty point home:

"Efficiency often rewards those who do less, not impact the game more."

says who? this is an unfounded assertion which you try to qualify with "often." not going to fly.

and then you finish with personal opinions masquerading as fact. basically you are saying that you see the game a certain way and that's that. i'll break it down for you:

"Feltons aggressive play," is a euphemism for rash and reckless.

"and decent shooting for a PG the most important position," 39.6% FG is not close to decent

"stresses the defense w/ consistent pressure." nonsense. defenses sag off because they want him to shoot, broken hands or no broken hands. again, the last 5 games he shot 15-20 times a game.

"As a legit offensive threat, the d is on their heels," now you repeat this falsehood to set up another false conclusion:

"which has a positive effect on Melo and the team as a whole." if only he actually distributed the ball properly. so, no... wrong again.

"Even when he misses, its potentially a positive as a cumulative effect (and direct effect w/ an offensive rebound)." LOL

"The formula for success with him as pg works, but it doesnt show up on a sheet sometimes." yeah tell me about it.

gunsnewing wrote:Here's where we are with Felton. His injury brought some clarity to his worth on the team. Throw all the stats away. Is Felton a great player, allstar, mvp? No. Does he do things that don't show up in the boxscore? Yes. Knicks are 20 & 8 with him.

Tyson and Melo's shooting numbers have gone down without him. Kidd and Amare don't run pnr. JR and Amare do but JR uses the pick to hoist a shot instead of getting the ball to Amare as he roles. Prigioni and Amare can work the pnr but for whatever reason Woodson has his off the ball with JR running plays. Reason why JR's FG has dipped. None of these guys other than Felton through a consistent lob pass. Felton should by default keep his shots to around 10 a game now that Amare is back and starting eventually alongside him.

Kidd should not be starting at the PG. Eliminate the slow starts. Start Prigioni until Felton is back.

Eventually:
Tyson
Amare
Melo
Shump or Kidd
Felton

I agree 100%. Kidd cannot penetrate or PnR like Prigs, so start Prigioni at PG until Felton's return.